As I said before, music and even movies are different things to rpg books.

That's because pirated music and movies are an equivalent product to legitimately-bought versions. They're a bit lower-quality than the real thing, worse sound and grainier image, but most people don't really notice or care.

But rpgs and other books, the pirated version isn't the same. It's a pdf, not a printed book; even if you print it, the expense means you may as well buy the real thing, and the binding and overall appearance won't be the same. If it's up to about 30 pages or so you mightn't care, but if you're talking about a 256 page book - it's not the same.

Piracy is a possible threat when the pirated product and the original are pretty much the same. But if the original is superior, you won't want the ripoff. That's why comparisons with the music industry don't go very far for rpgs and other books.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWell, I'm glad we cleared this up.

You win the internet, it's huge, start downloading now.

"Get off it. Nobody wants hard data. If hard data were the filtering criterion you could fit the entire contents of the Internet on a floppy disk. "  -- Cecil Adams

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWell, I'm glad we cleared this up.

You win the internet, it's huge, start downloading now.

Are you saying the influx of real competition has had no effect on the music industry? Money for music has to come from somewhere, and when people find new things to spend their entertainment budgets on, music suffers.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070212-8813.html http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/27/1043534002352.html

I hoped to find a translated version of http://www.espen.com/musikk.pdf, but no luck :deflated:

Quote from: dansebieThere's also some research out there showing that file sharers buy something like 3 times more music online than the average music listener. Of course, this doesn't take sales of physical media into account, but it's still interesting.
The idea that file sharers aren't customers is deeply, deeply flawed.

Also consider that there are bands that, regardless of whether or not I've purchased an album, I will go see live and some that I will never see live but might buy their albums (New Order falls into this category).

Quote from: pspahnI agree with that 100%.  What I'd like to know is what makes these customers decide to buy a product rather than download it for free (because I'm well aware that no one will ever convince the people who think there is nothing wrong with piracy to buy something they can get for free).  Is it a personal decision or is something marketable that can be capitalized on and expanded (extra content, etc.)?

Pete

It's perceived value. People have shown - time and again - that they are more than willing to pay for something if they perceive it to have value. Here is a good idea of what some record label execs are (hopefully) starting to realize.

Quote from: WilAlso consider that there are bands that, regardless of whether or not I've purchased an album, I will go see live and some that I will never see live but might buy their albums (New Order falls into this category).

You're kidding! New Order must be seen to be believed. Or are you saying they never tour the US these days?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat has never happened to anybody I have ever talked music with in my entire life, evar.

"I can't afford liking band X, well I guess I'll listen to Y instead": that's just not how it works.

Not "listen to" but going to the concerts of. I know plenty of folks who've made rational economic decisions to skip one concert and go to another because it was much cheaper, even if the bands in the second concert weren't as prestigious and well-known as the bands in the first concert. Heck, I've made that decision many times myself.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineNot "listen to" but going to the concerts of. I know plenty of folks who've made rational economic decisions to skip one concert and go to another because it was much cheaper, even if the bands in the second concert weren't as prestigious and well-known as the bands in the first concert. Heck, I've made that decision many times myself.

My dear man, do you honestly mean to suggest that the substitution effect applies to concert tickets, as if they were governed by the same economic principles that other goods are?  You can't put a price on entertainment.

Also, baseball is not a business.

Quote from: pspahnOK, that makes sense.  I don't support anarchism (just like I don't support socialism, communism, etc.), but I do think it gets misrepresented a bit.  Too many people associate anarchy with the old anarchist Punk Rock movement, many of whom I recall being "jerks in disguise" as you put it.    Thanks.  

Pete

No worries mate. Sorry for calling you bad names. It's part of the fun of arguing.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYou're kidding! New Order must be seen to be believed. Or are you saying they never tour the US these days?

No, I'm saying that the last time I saw them live (in 1989) they sucked so bad I vowed to never see them again. Love the studio albums though. There's a few more like that too - Nitzer Ebb, Front 242, a few punk bands. I love their albums but the live shows blow.

It's also worth considering that, for RPG books at least, it's still a bitch to consult an electronic file in play. The books I've pirated without buying tend to be the kinds of books that don't need to be consulted at table - I read them once for ideas, or to understand a discussion on the internet, and then ignored them. One of the key decision points I make when I've got an electronic copy of something and am deciding whether to buy a physical copy is "Will I need to consult this during play?"

One result of this is that I own many rulebooks and few supplements filled with flavour. I own more books that are crunchy than flavour-only books, because I need to consult the crunchy books at the table, and that means I need a physical copy.

It's true you could print these books, but if anyone has ever tried printing a 300 page pdf, they can tell you how fucking annoying it is to do, and how much ink and time it wastes, and at the end of that, you've still only got a stack of paper without any binding. While Kinkos etc. can take some of the edge off of this, that ups the price considerably and at that point, you're losing much of the cost advantage that piracy is supposed to bring.

Unlike with music, pirated electronic copies aren't really as good or as handy as a physical book.

I voted for Bill

The key point is, you can't resell multiple copies of my pdf if I do not give you express permission. Come on guys, this is not that hard. I am not trying to trick you or something. -Bill

Eh. I don't mind filesharing. For out of print games I see it as no big deal at all. For in print games, it amounts to just looking at references.

If we're talking about electronic pdfs? It has about as much immorality as a library loan.

That said, I don't actually spend a lot of time looking for them, and they aren't all that useful as artifacts. But if someone says "hey, I really want to use this one spell in the Complete Arcane book, and I don't have a copy. Here's a file that says what it does.."

I'm pretty much ok with that.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineNo worries mate. Sorry for calling you bad names. It's part of the fun of arguing.

No problem.  What good would the internet be if we couldn't download porn and yell at people we've never met?  

And while we're at it, just to be clear, I really wasn't knocking your creative efforts.  I do hope you finish that book/RPG and get it out there.  Maybe your views on piracy will change by then and maybe they won't, but good luck with it either way.

Pete

Quote from: WilNo, I'm saying that the last time I saw them live (in 1989) they sucked so bad I vowed to never see them again.

Oh, but that's New Order. Every gig a gamble. I've seen them be utterly sublime, and utter shit. That's what makes it so fascinating! Front 242 were always just mediocre...