Morality of Filesharing

HinterWelt · August 08, 2007, 03:50:31 PM

Quote from: J ArcaneIt may not occur to you, but the histrionic screeching induced by the latter, can nonetheless affect public perception of brand, and thus the former.

There's a reason the entertainment industries use hired muscle for this stuff.

Believe me when I say, every post in a forum can do that to a small publisher. However, if someone wants to hold this position against me, I can live with that. Somethings are worth standing up for and others not so much. The trick is knowing which will let you sleep at night.

Bill

J Arcane · August 08, 2007, 03:52:02 PM

Quote from: pspahnJ Arcane, you're getting too intellectual for me. He gave two examples. I pointed out that those examples were flawed. I don't see where stereotypes come into it. I can't figure out if you're opposing my statement or agreeing with it.

Pete

You said this:

Quote"that the people who are usually the most vocal about piracy being OK are the ones who have never created anything of consequence and then tried to sell it."

That is pure stereotype, and nothing more. It's not true, and in fact, there are a number of sizeable movements, such as Creative Commons, open software, and open documents, that prove that pretty goddamn solidly.

What you posted in your last post was essentially the equivalent of saying "Well, I have a black friend, and he really likes fried chicken."

pspahn · August 08, 2007, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: J ArcaneThere's a reason the entertainment industries use hired muscle for this stuff.

This sucks, but it's true. It's one reason why I don't get really nasty, I ignore personal attacks, and don't participate in supernasty flame wars. I'm running a business, however small, and everything I say or do publicly reflects that. Again, it is what it is. I'm outspoken enough offline that I don't let much of what happens online bother me.

Pete

Bradford C. Walker · August 08, 2007, 03:54:24 PM

Quote from: pspahnWell, that's a passionate statement, but I'm not sure I understand what it means. Profit from what? Filesharing?

Specifically, decentralized peer-to-peer networks and models that take their inspiration from them. Hell, iTunes does good business and they're centralized. The old media business models can't continue thanks to filesharing and user-friendly technologies like CD burners and services like print-on-demand no matter how many legal roadblock they put up. The smart players, big and small alike, are figuring out how to make this work for them. That's what I'm getting at.

Pseudoephedrine · August 08, 2007, 03:57:20 PM

Quote from: pspahnHeh, heh. Don't let your hate blind you to the truth, young Padawan. I never said anything about "I'm a real creator and you're not." In an earlier post I said:

"that the people who are usually the most vocal about piracy being OK are the ones who have never created anything of consequence and then tried to sell it."

Therefore, your example of the guy who posts a novel for free doesn't apply because he's not trying to sell it. Nor does your Stephen King example because he's not advocating piracy.

You _do_ apply, because you have not published anything and tried to sell it and you're advocating piracy. Does that make more sense? Again, look me up when you've published and tried to sell something and see if your perspective is the same. I'm not taking a dig, I'm just saying that once you've gone through the process you may or may not be so inclined to just give away your work. We wont know until you actually get there.

And name calling? :haw: That's wonderful.

Pete

I notice you didn't refer to those musicians I mentioned. So, what about them, Pete?

J Arcane · August 08, 2007, 03:58:41 PM

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerSpecifically, decentralized peer-to-peer networks and models that take their inspiration from them. Hell, iTunes does good business and they're centralized. The old media business models can't continue thanks to filesharing and user-friendly technologies like CD burners and services like print-on-demand no matter how many legal roadblock they put up. The smart players, big and small alike, are figuring out how to make this work for them. That's what I'm getting at.

When the realities of the market change, one must adapt to those realities to survive.

It's like the idiot who ran the wargame store in Vancouver, who would whine on and on about how evil eBay was, and how it destroyed small business, etc., etc. Meanwhile, the shop in the mall was making the lion's share of it's profit by listing a lot of the rarer items it got in on eBay.

pspahn · August 08, 2007, 04:00:51 PM

Quote from: J ArcaneThat is pure stereotype, and nothing more. It's not true, and in fact, there are a number of sizeable movements, such as Creative Commons, open software, and open documents, that prove that pretty goddamn solidly.

That's different, though. They're still not _advocating_ piracy. They're offering up their work for fair use, they're not saying "since we do this it's OK for everyone to pirate other people's products." I'll also note that I said "usually." That doesn't mean everyone. I'm not attacking everyone on earth who hasn't published an RPG or who wants to publish one. I'm simply stating a fact that the people who _usually_ advocate piracy are those who have no vested interest in the "industry," they haven't created something and tried to publish it for sale. I think that's a pretty fair assumption.

Pete

Pseudoephedrine · August 08, 2007, 04:01:17 PM

Quote from: James J SkachCool. So if you don't actually own that bridge, but you can make some people think you do, you'll gladly take their money.

See where this "logic" gets you? I believe the term is fraud.

Another irrelevant hypothetical, Jimmy. You're confusing misrepresenting your status in a way that is not publically accepted in order to do something illegal with just going along with social custom despite finding it silly and not particularly legitimate.

pspahn · August 08, 2007, 04:02:41 PM

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI notice you didn't refer to those musicians I mentioned. So, what about them, Pete?

If I was a musician I might address that, but what do I know about the music industry? Or the movie industry? I have only a small grasp of how the RPG industry works. I can't be expected to know everything.

Pete

J Arcane · August 08, 2007, 04:03:13 PM

Quote from: pspahnThat's different, though. They're still not _advocating_ piracy. They're offering up their work for fair use, they're not saying "since we do this it's OK for everyone to pirate other people's products." I'll also note that I said "usually." That doesn't mean everyone. I'm not attacking everyone on earth who hasn't published an RPG or who wants to publish one. I'm simply stating a fact that the people who _usually_ advocate piracy are those who have no vested interest in the "industry," they haven't created something and tried to publish it for sale. I think that's a pretty fair assumption.

Pete

Which just shows how little you know then, because the philosophical underpinnings of open source software and the creative commons have their direct origins in the hacker ethic.

Pseudoephedrine · August 08, 2007, 04:05:45 PM

Quote from: HinterWeltPlease, not the semantic argument. It is tired and used. I am sure you can do better. Let's try.

1. But you can;t own ideas!
2. No physical property taken from you!
3. No monetary harm was done to you!

Any of those are better arguments than "you are using the wrong word".

I will try it another way with out using that word.

I created something. You wish to take it from me for your own purposes. You decide to give it to everyone you know and distribute it freely across the world. I do not wish that to happen.

If I wish to give everyone my creation, great, I am a neato individual.

If you want to give everyone my creation, you are morally reprehensible.

Bill

Actually, that is better phrased, though it's still got some glaring holes in it. For example, why is sharing someone else's work bad? Remember, I don't think intellectual property is a legitimate idea, so you're not going to get very far making a case that relies on it.

James J Skach · August 08, 2007, 04:07:56 PM

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAnother irrelevant hypothetical, Jimmy. You're confusing misrepresenting your status in a way that is not publically accepted in order to do something illegal with just going along with social custom despite finding it silly and not particularly legitimate.

So, before you let anyone give you money for your work, you will, of course, tell them that could, if they wanted, just have it for free because you don't really own it, right?

Otherwise, you're just rationalizing things so you can sleep at night.

pspahn · August 08, 2007, 04:08:27 PM

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerSpecifically, decentralized peer-to-peer networks and models that take their inspiration from them. Hell, iTunes does good business and they're centralized. The old media business models can't continue thanks to filesharing and user-friendly technologies like CD burners and services like print-on-demand no matter how many legal roadblock they put up. The smart players, big and small alike, are figuring out how to make this work for them. That's what I'm getting at.

Oh, OK, that makes more sense. And I agree. Piracy is a fact of life. There's no way to stop it other than to appeal to people who want to continue to see good gaming material being written. Like I said earlier, if someone spends time and money creating a kickass game/setting and then sells 10 copies because it's plastered all over the net, he's not going to be so interested supporting it or creating anything new. But like J Arcane said, most people want print books right now, so for the larger products (like settings and rules), a small press publisher can still hope for a decent return.

Pete

Pseudoephedrine · August 08, 2007, 04:11:30 PM

Quote from: James J SkachAnd especially when they show you to be wrong!

EDIT: I'm sorry. I originally called you a pretentious twit. Whether or not that is true is beyond the scope of this discussion. I apologize.

Your example has almost nothing to do with how interactions for money actually occur. It's a toy example.

Pseudoephedrine · August 08, 2007, 04:12:53 PM

Quote from: James J SkachSo, before you let anyone give you money for your work, you will, of course, tell them that could, if they wanted, just have it for free because you don't really own it, right?

Otherwise, you're just rationalizing things so you can sleep at night.

I have in fact posted chunks of it for free on the internet even as we speak, and hope to eventually do so with the rest. So yeah, anyone who wanted to could read it for free.

Sorry Jim, but you're just not going to somehow find me a hypocrite on this one.