Quote from: architect.zeroNo, but...

arguments:

a) In the real world you can browse an entire book before making the purchase, whereas you don't have that luxury online.  If you happen to find that you don't like the product, even after browsing it, you can return or resell the book to recoup your outlay.

This is not an option online, at least not at the moment, because it's unenforceable.

Is it morally right to believe that a customer must buy something, almost blind, in order to evaluate it and that if they find that they do not like the product that they have no recourse?

Consumers have rights too and those rights are rarely given any consideration when talking about digital products.  And that's not right either.

I mostly agree with your perspective, but the problem there is that the decision is not the customer's to make. Have you ever been to a gaming or comic store that sells all their RPG products shrinkwrapped? I have. I thought it was a shitty business decision and I didn't give them any of my money, but it's not my place to make their business policy. It still would not have been right for me to break open the shrinkwrap and look through a book without asking.

Quoteb) If I've already purchased a print version of a product, why do I have to pay (roughly) 2/3 the price of the product, on top of the initial outlay, so that I can also have a digital version?

How about a decent discount to owners of a print version who would like to have a nicely indexed digital version as well?

Make the PDFs cheap enough for print version owners and you take away the temptation to dig for a torrent or FTP site.

Again, I agree that these are all good business ideas, but again, it is up to the publisher to provide them, not the consumer to take them.

QuoteAll that being said, the above arguments are just complaints about the reality of business done online, today.  If that's how it's done, that's how it's done, love it or leave it. If you don't like it, grow up and/or work to change how business is done.

That's the important thing. I don't think I have the right to take something just because its publisher isn't doing business in a way I find desirable.

I don't think it's acceptable, but I also think that where the US is concerned, we are in sore need for updated and sensible Fair Use laws, because what we have right now is a vague clusterfuck.

Quote from: architect.zeroNo, but...

arguments:

a) In the real world you can browse an entire book before making the purchase, whereas you don't have that luxury online.  If you happen to find that you don't like the product, even after browsing it, you can return or resell the book to recoup your outlay.

Keep in mind you're usually talking about paying 3 x the price for a print book than a PDF.  It's a bit more of an investment, that (using your example) evens out.  If you buy a book and don't like it you can resell it, but you still lose money (most of the time).  The amount of money you lose is probably equivalent to what you pay for most PDFs.  

Quoteb) If I've already purchased a print version of a product, why do I have to pay (roughly) 2/3 the price of the product, on top of the initial outlay, so that I can also have a digital version?

How about a decent discount to owners of a print version who would like to have a nicely indexed digital version as well?

Make the PDFs cheap enough for print version owners and you take away the temptation to dig for a torrent or FTP site.

I firmly believe that if you buy the print version you should get the PDF version free.  We (Small Niche Games) do that with all our print products and some other publishers (like PIG) do that as well.  I think more should adopt that model.  I just saw the d20 Modern core book PDF on RPGNow for $30 or something and I just scratched my head.

QuoteAll that being said, the above arguments are just complaints about the reality of business done online, today.  If that's how it's done, that's how it's done, love it or leave it. If you don't like it, grow up and/or work to change how business is done.

That's the purpose of discussion.  It's a two-way street in this case.  IMO, since IP laws _are_ unenforceable on the net, it's up to the consumer and the publisher to find a happy medium.  I don;t think you can get more customer friendly than buy print/get free PDF, but there are people who are never going to pay for anything if they don't have to.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahn...but there are people who are never going to pay for anything if they don't have to.

I'm not sure that these people are our concern, as I've seen nothing to show that they comprise the majority of people who share files. There will always be someone who flaunts regulations right? So what we're really concerned about is the rest of us: the people who may bend or break a rule on occasion but for the most part toe the line.

Y'know, I ususally hate it when I go on a forum and  someone raises and interesting topic and someone else chimes in with 'look for the old threads'...

But We've had much better discussions than this in the past.  Check Off Topic for some of them. :what:

Poop on you Spike.

Is it illegal to download scans of books one already owns?

Quote from: SpikeY'know, I ususally hate it when I go on a forum and  someone raises and interesting topic and someone else chimes in with 'look for the old threads'...

But We've had much better discussions than this in the past.  Check Off Topic for some of them. :what:

I hate it too, but I agree with you.  This has all been discussed (over and over and over and over. . .) for years and there really hasn't been any progress made.   Other than people get divided into camps so that when you see a certain username or two you say, ah well, what the hell does he know anyway, that bastard pirate.  

Pete

Quote from: joewolzPoop on you Spike.

Is it illegal to download scans of books one already owns?

Illegal, yes.  Is it unethical?  I would say no.  But then, who the hell am I?

Pete

Quote from: pspahnIllegal, yes.  Is it unethical?  I would say no.  But then, who the hell am I?

Pete

Wait, it's illegal to download the scan of a book I own, but not illegal to scan it myself?

What's the difference?

Quote from: pspahnIllegal, yes.  Is it unethical?  I would say no.  But then, who the hell am I?

Pete

Hence the reason for JamesV's issue - fair use in the United States. If I own a CD of Talullah Milestones Greatest Hits, why shouldn't I be able to rip it and put it on every damn digital device I own for my own use. Problem is, it opens up a can of worms for many.

Now I can see making a pdf available to hardcopy owners for a nominal fee (for "processing" or "server fee" or something). But to charge the same price is a bit much.

And trust me - this is coming from a guy who positively hated the entire "I got my music for free from Naptser" fad to the point that I removed any piece of media for which I did not own an original and now only rip what I own. So none of this should be read as believing there exists a legitimate reason to take IP without the owner's agreement.

Quote from: joewolzWait, it's illegal to download the scan of a book I own, but not illegal to scan it myself?

What's the difference?

 I'm just stating a fact, I'm not debating whether it's right or wrong.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnThat's the purpose of discussion.  It's a two-way street in this case.  IMO, since IP laws _are_ unenforceable on the net, it's up to the consumer and the publisher to find a happy medium.  I don;t think you can get more customer friendly than buy print/get free PDF, but there are people who are never going to pay for anything if they don't have to.  

Pete

That's a really cool attitude, and I'm guessing it's pretty much inline with what most small publishers are doing.  Maintain an open dialog with customers, treat them like customers not criminals, and provide market-leading services in order to compete in the marketplace.

Now, if we could convince the bigger guys that this was a viable model.  Then again, maybe the current model is indeed viable for them; maybe they can get away with treating their customers like crap because their customers take it and keep paying.

And yes, discussed to death in every which way about anything that can be distributed digitally.  There are no real answers to the enforceability problem, just education and hopefully a move towards a cognizant mature marketplace where buyers and sellers do indeed operate honorably.

I like it when I get a free PDF with purchase of the book.  How do you handle Con sales?

Quote from: architect.zeroThat's a really cool attitude, and I'm guessing it's pretty much inline with what most small publishers are doing.  Maintain an open dialog with customers, treat them like customers not criminals, and provide market-leading services in order to compete in the marketplace.

Thanks, and yes, since the net plays such a huge role in small press sales, (in most cases) an online presence is pretty much mandatory for small press publishers who want to stay in business.  You can only sell so many products to your gaming group.

Quote from: joewolzI like it when I get a free PDF with purchase of the book.  How do you handle Con sales?

We haven't set up at a convention yet (GenCon or DragonCon '08 if all goes according to plan), but I would probably either make CDs to hand out with the books or take down email addresses.  I believe RPGNow also has a printed coupon option to hand out to customers at Cons, and I'm sure other online sales sites like Your Games Now and Precis Intermedia have (or would) set up something similar.    

Pete

Quote from: pspahnI firmly believe that if you buy the print version you should get the PDF version free.  We (Small Niche Games) do that with all our print products and some other publishers (like PIG) do that as well.  I think more should adopt that model.  I just saw the d20 Modern core book PDF on RPGNow for $30 or something and I just scratched my head.

Same with HinterWelt.

Bill