Quote from: PseudoephedrineHinterwelt> Your argument doesn't work because you're comparing an illegal act with a legal one. I'm not "stealing" anyone's work because "stealing" is an illegal act, and what I'm doing is legal.

And I don't find IP a particularly legitimate notion normally, and I didn't long before I started downloading music and movies. I'm an anarchist.

No, you are stealing but where you happen to be standing that version of stealing is not illegal. It does not make it any less morally reprehensible.

Now, you personal views, like mine, can only form our perceptions of what is right and wrong. Until such time as your perception preclude and devalues my perceptions both are of little import. You stealing my work is when they come into conflict.

Just because you think it is a good thing to steal from me does not make it a good thing. However, in my experience, no one believes they are morally wrong and will rationalize their actions as being good, "fighting the power" or "katana wielding, trench coat wearing cool".

Bill

Quote from: James J SkachSee the post explaining the basics of a transaction.

Sorry Jimmy, but I don't have much use for hypothetical examples, especially when they're so clearly skewed.

Quote from: HinterWeltNo, you are stealing but where you happen to be standing that version of stealing is not illegal. It does not make it any less morally reprehensible.

You don't seem to understand what the word "stealing" means, or else to be using it in a way that is contrary to an ordinary understanding without a good reason.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineOh, well, if we're playing "I'm a real creator and you're not," then the guy who published his novel on Slate.com for free beats you out. As does Stephen King, who published that story ("The Plant") relying on a limited number of microdonations (far inferior to the number of downloads) to fund each installment. Or the large number of musicians who are in favour of pirating music.

Nice try though, you pretentious nit.

Heh, heh.  Don't let your hate blind you to the truth, young Padawan.  I never said anything about "I'm a real creator and you're not." In an earlier post I said:

 "that the people who are usually the most vocal about piracy being OK are the ones who have never created anything of consequence and then tried to sell it."  

Therefore, your example of the guy who posts a novel for free doesn't apply because he's not trying to sell it. Nor does your Stephen King example because he's not advocating piracy.  

You _do_ apply, because you have not published anything and tried to sell it and you're advocating piracy.  Does that make more sense?  Again, look me up when you've published and tried to sell something and see if your perspective is the same.  I'm not taking a dig, I'm just saying that once you've gone through the process you may or may not be so inclined to just give away your work.  We wont know until you actually get there.  

And name calling?   :haw:  That's wonderful.

Pete

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI don't think I really own them, but if everyone else does and wants to pay me money for them, then I am content to have them hand me money.

Cool.  So if you don't actually own that bridge, but you can make some people think you do, you'll gladly take their money.

See where this "logic" gets you?  I believe the term is fraud.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou don't seem to understand what the word "stealing" means, or else to be using it in a way that is contrary to an ordinary understanding without a good reason.

Please, not the semantic argument. It is tired and used. I am sure you can do better. Let's try.

1. But you can;t own ideas!
2. No physical property taken from you!
3. No monetary harm was done to you!

Any of those are better arguments than "you are using the wrong word".

I will try it another way with out using that word.

I created something. You wish to take it from me for your own purposes. You decide to give it to everyone you know and distribute it freely across the world. I do not wish that to happen.

If I wish to give everyone my creation, great, I am a neato individual.

If you want to give everyone my creation, you are morally reprehensible.

Bill

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou don't seem to understand what the word "stealing" means, or else to be using it in a way that is contrary to an ordinary understanding without a good reason.

Just so you know, you're probably not going to bait Bill into giving you any more face time.  I'm only doing it as a lark and I probably should have stopped some time ago.  I know how you feel, you know how I feel.  We're not going to get any further than that.  

I still stand by my assertion that any dialogue or "debate" on piracy is pointless.  No one is going to change their views based on what is said here. It is what it is.  

Pete

EDIT:  Ack!  I spoke too soon.  Curse you, Bill HinterWelt!  

Quote from: PseudoephedrineSorry Jimmy, but I don't have much use for hypothetical examples, especially when they're so clearly skewed.

And especially when they show you to be wrong!

EDIT: I'm sorry.  I originally called you a pretentious twit.  Whether or not that is true is beyond the scope of this discussion. I apologize.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou don't seem to understand what the word "stealing" means, or else to be using it in a way that is contrary to an ordinary understanding without a good reason.

steal  (stl)
v. stole (stl), sto·len (stln), steal·ing, steals
v.tr.
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
5. Baseball To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.
v.intr.
1. To commit theft.
2. To move, happen, or elapse stealthily or unobtrusively.
3. Baseball To steal a base.
n.
1. The act of stealing.
2. Slang A bargain.
3. Baseball A stolen base.


Psuedo, You are usually much more careful than that.  Notice line one of the entry for Steal.  Now, I understand that us dispute the the value of IP, that's your business, but it seems that the community disagrees, that the work of someone, creatively, has just as much 'ownership' as a physical creation.  That's not an IP law, that's basic copywrite.  You aren't (lets use a more neutral term) taking his idea, you are taking something he actually made, worked on, made. Theft, in short.

Taking his idea, that's an IP violation, and much more debateable. But in this, he was using stealing accurately.  



I now return you to your regularly scheduled repeat thread...

i'm quite amazed that the "yes" votes have increased.  unless there are a bunch of devil's advocate votes going on. . . .

Quote from: pspahnHeh, heh.  Don't let your hate blind you to the truth, young Padawan.  I never said anything about "I'm a real creator and you're not." In an earlier post I said:

 "that the people who are usually the most vocal about piracy being OK are the ones who have never created anything of consequence and then tried to sell it."  

Therefore, your example of the guy who posts a novel for free doesn't apply because he's not trying to sell it. Nor does your Stephen King example because he's not advocating piracy.  

You _do_ apply, because you have not published anything and tried to sell it and you're advocating piracy.  Does that make more sense?  Again, look me up when you've published and tried to sell something and see if your perspective is the same.  I'm not taking a dig, I'm just saying that once you've gone through the process you may or may not be so inclined to just give away your work.  We wont know until you actually get there.  

And name calling?   :haw:  That's wonderful.

Pete

The existence of affirmative examples of a stereotype does not automatically affirm that stereotype.

The existence of negative ones do however go a long way towards pointing out it's erroneous nature, yet you seem to be rather contralogically arguing that instead they prove it.  Which is bollocks, despite what old cliches tell you.

Some black people really do eat fried chicken and watermelon.  That doesn't mean shit, however.

Quote from: pspahnJust so you know, you're probably not going to bait Bill into giving you any more face time.  I'm only doing it as a lark and I probably should have stopped some time ago.  I know how you feel, you know how I feel.  We're not going to get any further than that.  

I still stand by my assertion that any dialogue or "debate" on piracy is pointless.  No one is going to change their views based on what is said here. It is what it is.  

Pete

EDIT:  Ack!  I spoke too soon.  Curse you, Bill HinterWelt!  

Pete,
I need a break from squirrels. And yes, we are circling the drain now with the "resort to semantics" argument coming up. As opposed to piracy that I am, and I fight it where ever I find it, I accept and plan for it in my BP. I do not download pirated movies or music. If I like something, I earn the money and I buy it or I do without.

So, yeah, despite my passionate words, it falls into two categories for me, business (not too worried, plan for it) and personal (passionate, and outspoken). Distractions can be fun.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltPete,
I need a break from squirrels. And yes, we are circling the drain now with the "resort to semantics" argument coming up. As opposed to piracy that I am, and I fight it where ever I find it, I accept and plan for it in my BP. I do not download pirated movies or music. If I like something, I earn the money and I buy it or I do without.

So, yeah, despite my passionate words, it falls into two categories for me, business (not too worried, plan for it) and personal (passionate, and outspoken). Distractions can be fun.

Bill

See, now there's an interesting discussion that perhaps I could have with you (in another thread, over lunch, whatever) - Just how do you plan for it?

Quote from: HinterWeltPete,
I need a break from squirrels. And yes, we are circling the drain now with the "resort to semantics" argument coming up. As opposed to piracy that I am, and I fight it where ever I find it, I accept and plan for it in my BP. I do not download pirated movies or music. If I like something, I earn the money and I buy it or I do without.

So, yeah, despite my passionate words, it falls into two categories for me, business (not too worried, plan for it) and personal (passionate, and outspoken). Distractions can be fun.

Bill

It may not occur to you, but the histrionic screeching induced by the latter, can nonetheless affect public perception of brand, and thus the former.

There's a reason the entertainment industries use hired muscle for this stuff.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe existence of affirmative examples of a stereotype does not automatically affirm that stereotype.

The existence of negative ones do however go a long way towards pointing out it's erroneous nature, yet you seem to be rather contralogically arguing that instead they prove it.  Which is bollocks, despite what old cliches tell you.

Some black people really do eat fried chicken and watermelon.  That doesn't mean shit, however.

J Arcane, you're getting too intellectual for me.   He gave two examples.  I pointed out that those examples were flawed.  I don't see where stereotypes come into it.  I can't figure out if you're opposing my statement or agreeing with it.

Pete