Quote from: Serious PaulHere's a funny aside: how many of you, like me, have printed something and had it downloaded by someone through file sharing?

I wrote a Shadowrun supplement that is available for download, and frankly I'm not mad or too bent out of shape by it. Frankly I'm flattered.

Yah, there's a difference there, though.  You're a fan writing fan materials.  You're not an author or publisher trying to make money to. . . well, I would say live off of, but there's so little money in it that those who can live off what they make are the exceptions.  

I think it's always interesting to note that the people who are usually the most vocal about piracy being OK are the ones who have never created anything of consequence and then tried to sell it (and Serious Paul, I'm not talking about you here--that statement just happens to be included in a response to your post).  

Pete

Quote from: J ArcaneI think you forget the puritanical mindset of some rightists in the US.  It has been my experience that there are plenty of people in this country who do see getting something for nothing as inherently immoral.

J Arcane, did you just comment on piracy, religion, AND politics all in one post?  Are you mad?!!  



Pete

I don't get too het up about people pirating my work.  I expect it's happening, and I expect it'll all work out just fine in the long run.

That does not mean that pirating my works is right, or acceptable.  It means that they're doing a wrong thing that happens not to bother me.  It's still wrong, I just can't get worried about every wrong thing anyone does.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAs always in filesharing discussions, in this discussion people have assumed the position of the American legal system to be basically a universal.

On the other hand, in Canada, it's not illegal to download pirated content, just to upload or sell it, and even then, our notions of "fair use" etc. are somewhat different. So any argument that "Downloading is illegal!" is suitable for Americans, but simply has no teeth to me.

This is a pretty serious hole in the "illegal = immoral" (which I don't see much of here, happily) and "pirating is stealing, stealing is immoral, so pirating is immoral" argument. The last being that it's not considered stealing by everyone (even by US law, really, and the difference is credible).

Quote from: TonyLBI don't get too het up about people pirating my work.  I expect it's happening, and I expect it'll all work out just fine in the long run.

That does not mean that pirating my works is right, or acceptable.  It means that they're doing a wrong thing that happens not to bother me.  It's still wrong, I just can't get worried about every wrong thing anyone does.

Well, that's what I'm saying (assuming this was a response to my post--if not, sorry).  I'm not talking about game designers/publishers who don't let piracy bother them.  I'm talking about people who are willing to take a stand and say there is nothing wrong with piracy.  

Pete

Quote from: TonyLBI don't get too het up about people pirating my work.  I expect it's happening, and I expect it'll all work out just fine in the long run.

That does not mean that pirating my works is right, or acceptable.  It means that they're doing a wrong thing that happens not to bother me.  It's still wrong, I just can't get worried about every wrong thing anyone does.

That is tantamount to saying, as the owner, go ahead and take it.  And that's fine.  You, as the owner, have every right to determine that what you've created isn't worth remuneration. That goes to Serious Paul's example as well.

The issue is whether it is OK for the person receiving the product to make that determination without the owners input. To me, even if that was legal, it would be, at the very least, impolite.

Hinterwelt> Your argument doesn't work because you're comparing an illegal act with a legal one. I'm not "stealing" anyone's work because "stealing" is an illegal act, and what I'm doing is legal.

And I don't find IP a particularly legitimate notion normally, and I didn't long before I started downloading music and movies. I'm an anarchist.

Serious Paul> That most RPG players have pirated music and movies? Most RPG players are computer-savvy white people. In North America, that demographic is _the_ demographic that commits piracy (mainly as consumers, rather than producers of artifacts containing pirated information).

Discussions of piracy on many websites is suppressed for liability issues. That gives it a low profile, and makes it seem like no one has ever downloaded an mp3 or divx in their lives. However, when you get into less formal areas: blogs, chat channels, freeform fan-fic inspired web forums for private games, etc. piracy and tolerance for piracy increase drastically, and discussions about it become ubiquitous.

The last part is especially important, because as Malcolm Sheppard pointed out a few months ago (it was discussed on this website), the biggest group of RPG players right now is in those freeform channels pretending to be Naruto or whoever.

So basically, RPG players tend to be drawn from a pool of candidates who are statistically more likely to be pirates than just about any other pool of candidates, and that of the largest groups of RPG players is very tolerant, if not actively participating, in various sorts of piracy.

That's not airtight, I'll admit, but there aren't very good statistics on the RPG field in specific on just about any issue. We do know that music and movie piracy is pretty ubiquitous these days though.

Quote from: pspahnYah, there's a difference there, though.  You're a fan writing fan materials.  You're not an author or publisher trying to make money to. . . well, I would say live off of, but there's so little money in it that those who can live off what they make are the exceptions.  

I think it's always interesting to note that the people who are usually the most vocal about piracy being OK are the ones who have never created anything of consequence and then tried to sell it (and Serious Paul, I'm not talking about you here--that statement just happens to be included in a response to your post).  

Pete

I'm writing a novel, and an RPG. I plan to sell both, and I've already posted small chunks of the novel online. This whole "If you were really in the shit, you'd hold my views" thing is ridiculous.

Quote from: James J SkachThat is tantamount to saying, as the owner, go ahead and take it.

I'm pretty sure it's not.  Did I not just say "Pirating my works is wrong"?

"This thing is wrong" and "This thing pisses me off" are two independent qualities that can be combined in any way:

• Not wrong - Pisses me off:  People playing just flat out stupid moves in Go.
  
• Wrong - Pisses me off:  Slamming religious faith as inherently less "proven" than atheism
• Not Wrong - Doesn't piss me off:  Playing Jungle Speed.
• Wrong - Doesn't piss me off:  Stealing my old, broke-down green car.

And just for the record:  If you steal my intellectual property, and I find out, I will have you prosecuted.  Not because I'm pissed off, but because that's how society works

EDIT:  Not "You, James," in particular of course ... he's a good egg.  "You, anyone who's listening to whom the statement applies."

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI'm writing a novel, and an RPG. I plan to sell both, and I've already posted small chunks of the novel online. This whole "If you were really in the shit, you'd hold my views" thing is ridiculous.

OK.   I know a lot of people who have been writing novels and/or RPGs.  The same ones.  For years.  And they're still not finished.  Talk to me when you actually get them finished and published and we'll see where we stand or if your perspective has changed.  It's a long, long road from Chapter One to royalty check.  

Pete

Quote from: TonyLBI'm pretty sure it's not.  Did I not just say "Pirating my works is wrong"?

"This thing is wrong" and "This thing pisses me off" are two independent qualities that can be combined in any way:

• Not wrong - Pisses me off:  People playing just flat out stupid moves in Go.
  
• Wrong - Pisses me off:  Slamming religious faith as inherently less "proven" than atheism
• Not Wrong - Doesn't piss me off:  Playing Jungle Speed.
• Wrong - Doesn't piss me off:  Stealing my old, broke-down green car.

And just for the record:  If you steal my intellectual property, and I find out, I will have you prosecuted.  Not because I'm pissed off, but because that's how society works

No, what you actually said was "This does not mean pirating my works is right."  This, after saying that you can't get worked up over it and it doesn't bother you.  At best, it's ambiguous.  I tell you this only to let you know it was in case your goal was to be otherwise.

Regardless, I'll take you at your word.

But that doesn't change my point, which is, it's a violation of the basics of trade. It goes something like this:

• I have something you want.
• I say it costs $10.
• You say it's only worth $2.

Now there are only so many ways this can go:

• We do not haggle, you decide to pay the $10. You get "it" and I get $10.
• We do not haggle, I decide to take $2. Your get "it" and I get $2.
• We haggle.  We agree on the price (say $6). You get "it" and I get $6.
• We haggle.  We do not agree on the price.  I keep it.

Note in all four examples, both parties had a say.  In the last one, an agreement could not be reached, so the owner keeps it.  These days, everyone makes up a bunch of reasons why #4 should be violated; that is, the owner and seeker can not agree, and the seeker still gets it.

In the case where an owner says "I don't care, it's more important to me they are playing the game," that owner is getting a say in the process.

Quote from: pspahnOK.   I know a lot of people who have been writing novels and/or RPGs.  The same ones.  For years.  And they're still not finished.  Talk to me when you actually get them finished and published and we'll see where we stand or if your perspective has changed.  It's a long, long road from Chapter One to royalty check.  

Pete

Oh, well, if we're playing "I'm a real creator and you're not," then the guy who published his novel on Slate.com for free beats you out. As does Stephen King, who published that story ("The Plant") relying on a limited number of microdonations (far inferior to the number of downloads) to fund each installment. Or the large number of musicians who are in favour of pirating music.

Nice try though, you pretentious nit.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI'm writing a novel, and an RPG. I plan to sell both,

I plan to get pirated copies of both and distribute them, via e-mail, to everyone in Canada - whether they want it or not.  Maybe even Europe.  If I can stay under the notice of the law, maybe even the US! I mean, you don't own the novel or RPG, what gives you the right to sell them?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrinethen the guy who published his novel on Slate.com for free beats you out. As does Stephen King, who published that story ("The Plant") relying on a limited number of microdonations (far inferior to the number of downloads) to fund each installment. Or the large number of musicians who are in favour of pirating music.

See the post explaining the basics of a transaction.

Quote from: James J SkachI plan to get pirated copies of both and distribute them, via e-mail, to everyone in Canada - whether they want it or not.  Maybe even Europe.  If I can stay under the notice of the law, maybe even the US! I mean, you don't own the novel or RPG, what gives you the right to sell them?

I'm totally cool with you pirating them. In fact, mailing a free *.pdf copy to everyone in the Western world would be an awesome publicity move that would probably make my name. So, I don't care if you're doing it out of spite or whatever, go for it!

Later on though, you're confusing my personal opinion with the opinion of the law, Jimmy. I don't think I really own them, but if everyone else does and wants to pay me money for them, then I am content to have them hand me money. If they aren't, well, then, I'll have the manuscript in your e-mail box ASAP.