Quote from: Serious PaulLuckily for people like Pete I don't think you represent the majority of people buying games out there, and your view point while certainly valid, a consensus does not make.

I think I do represent the majority of RPGplayers, since there is little doubt in my mind that most of those people have pirated music and movies before. That they want to do it to music and movies and not to games is a difference in taste.

Quote from: James J SkachWhile I agree with you that US law is not universal (I think Kyle has referenced how Australian laws differ), the examples you provide are not the equivalent of obtaining a work of intellectual property without consent of the owner.

I think that's pretty clear, but again nothing I or anyone else says is going to change anyone's mind.  If you break down what Pseudoephedrine is really saying, though, it would seem that publishers/authors/filmakers, etc. should not bother targeting the Canadian audience at all since in Canada you are under no obligation to pay for Intellectual Property.  That's. . .interesting.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnI think that's pretty clear, but again nothing I or anyone else says is going to change anyone's mind.  If you break down what Pseudoephedrine is really saying, though, it would seem that publishers/authors/filmakers, etc. should not bother targeting the Canadian audience at all since in Canada you are under no obligation to pay for Intellectual Property.  That's. . .interesting.  

Pete

It's only interesting because you don't really understand Canadian law, and have just said some silly things about it to make a wild rhetorical point.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI think I do represent the majority of RPGplayers, since there is little doubt in my mind that most of those people have pirated music and movies before. That they want to do it to music and movies and not to games is a difference in taste.

Proof?

Quote from: Serious PaulProof?

Not without standards of evidence first. What kind of proof do you want?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAs to intellectual property itself, I don't consider it a legitimate form of property, so I'm not too worried about it, so long as I'm not going to get nailed by the law.

Neat! So if I don't consider your computer a legitimate form of property, I can just take it without worry - as long as I'm not going to get nailed by the law, that is.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineNot without standards of evidence first. What kind of proof do you want?

I'm not picky, whatever you feel is fine is fine by me man. I am just curious if anything other than personal belief fuels your opinion.

Quote from: Serious PaulProof?

I highly doubt anyone could prove anything about "the typical RPG player" one way or another.

Really, once two people are firmly entrenched in opposing conjecture, there's nothing left to do but slap-fight.
:ACF114F:

Quote from: PseudoephedrineWe all get products we don't pay for fairly frequently. Gifts, prizes, free giveaways, abandoned goods, library loans, etc. Since downloading is legal, and getting things for free isn't inherently immoral (unless the library has become a bastion of sin), I can't see a reason that I shouldn't do something legal to get something for free.

And criminals get plenty of items they do not pay for that makes it illegal and immoral. You are using some twisted logic to make yourself feel better about taking something that does not belong to you. Sure, someone else does the act of copying and distributing but then you partake of it, an equivalent product that is for sale, and say it is o.k. because you do not believe in IP laws and where you happen to be standing it is not illegal.

Honestly, IMO, it is like saying you knowingly bought stolen goods and it is o.k. because you did not steal them.

To all in the thread offering your rationalizations, well, as long as you know what you are doing is wrong and can come up with a rationalization, rock on. I will never be convinced that there is ever a way to make it morally correct to steal. Note: There are times when it is necessary to do evil in order to survive; i.e. protecting yourself, your loved ones, stealing food when you are starving (not because you haven't eaten since breakfast). It does not make it right but it may make it necessary. RPGs are not necessary, they are a luxury. If you choose to steal them (or participate in the process), then you are doing wrong based on a whim;i.e. something you want. That is even worse than doing something immoral because you need it.

However, I am notably biased in this discussion and have argued it far too many times.

Bill

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt's only interesting because you don't really understand Canadian law, and have just said some silly things about it to make a wild rhetorical point.

You're right, I don't understand Candian law any better than I understand American law.  I'm not a lawyer.  You cited Canadian law as a reason why you think there is nothing wrong with piracy.  I'm simply paraphrasing what you said.  If there is nothing illegal or immoral to keep someone from doing something (like piracy), then there is no real incentive to keep anyone from doing it.  Why pay for a game (or a car or a rolex) if you can get one for free with no effect on your conscience or legal standing?  If your views represent the majority of RPGPlayers, I would assume statistically that you represent the majority of Canadian RPGPlayers.  Therefore, targeting Canadian gamers is sort of foolish from a publisher's standpoint since the majority of you Canadians are OK with pirating the RPGs anyway.  

Pete

PS - To other Canadians, I hope this is coming off as suitably silly.  It's hard to convey irony in text sometimes.

Quote from: James J SkachNeat! So if I don't consider your computer a legitimate form of property, I can just take it without worry - as long as I'm not going to get nailed by the law, that is.

If something that is currently illegal was not illegal and you did it, you would not be punished by the law. Amazing, I know!

Quote from: Serious PaulI apologize if I derail this thread, but I just want to laugh long and hard here. Thanks for the laugh Koltar, I needed it!

I think we laughed at the exact same thing, here. XD

Anyhow, I voted yes, because I feel that there are circumstances where it's morally allowable even if it's not the most moral choice available. For example, I download files of role-playing books all the damn time because my budget and transportation are limited.

How does this work for me? Well, I can't always get down to a game or book shop to preview the books I'm excited about buying. Sometimes I don't have the money just yet. Sometimes the shops don't have the book I want to preview. But, I don't have lots of money! Ordering site un-seen could be a huge drag for me. I don't want to spent between the thirty and fifty dollars that I have expendable for the pay period on something I don't like or won't use.

So, I download something. Then I read it and decide if it's worth getting. When I get paid, I buy a copy of something I've already downloaded either in .pdf or in print. I prefer print. Most of my money goes to media I already have, music and text. It might be disposable cash, but I don't want to throw it away...

If the .pdf is cheap enough, I'll just buy it instead, though. For example, I kept hearing about Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and thought it might be worth the money. I spent 5$ on a .pdf. Now, I don't want it in print, because it's not worth the money, imo, but I don't feel like I wasted the money I did spend, because I can mostly afford 5 dollars. I'd rather pay for FtA! or something instead, but now I know.

Is that immoral? Some will say yes, but it doesn't really matter. That's the way it works now. I get to download it, and decide if I want it. If you want me to spend money on your games, you better not screw around, because I only pay for what I think you deserve money for. Price it fairly, and make it worth my time, and I assure you my hard-earned money. I think that's fair. Sucks if designers don't.

I'm making a game, too. I assume it'll go the same way. I wouldn't hope for otherwise, and feel it'd be unethical to combat that. I might go so far as to make it free to download, and cost money to get a print copy.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineWe all get products we don't pay for fairly frequently. Gifts, prizes, free giveaways, abandoned goods, library loans, etc. Since downloading is legal, and getting things for free isn't inherently immoral (unless the library has become a bastion of sin), I can't see a reason that I shouldn't do something legal to get something for free.

I think you forget the puritanical mindset of some rightists in the US.  It has been my experience that there are plenty of people in this country who do see getting something for nothing as inherently immoral.

Here's a funny aside: how many of you, like me, have printed something and had it downloaded by someone through file sharing?

I wrote a Shadowrun supplement that is available for download, and frankly I'm not mad or too bent out of shape by it. Frankly I'm flattered.

Quote from: HinterWeltHowever, I am notably biased in this discussion and have argued it far too many times.

Heh.  Me too, but I'm bored and at work so I can't work on any RPG projects right now.  

Pete