Is it morally acceptable to download/distribute copies of in-print RPG games via filesharing?

(Just to be clear, I'm not talking about free pdfs or ransom model products or such.)

I voted no.
Reason: If you don't own it, you don't have the right to take it (or give it to someone else)  without the consent of the owner.
Arguments that "the owner isn't losing anything" seem to me to miss the point.  It's morally wrong to take someone else's property without their permission even if they aren't harmed.

The one exception I've heard of that seems reasonable is people who own a book and want an electronic copy for searching or to put on their laptop to have at the game.

No, not under any circumstances.

Quote from: Cerulean LionI voted no.
Reason: If you don't own it, you don't have the right to take it (or give it to someone else)  without the consent of the owner.
Arguments that "the owner isn't losing anything" seem to me to miss the point.  It's morally wrong to take someone else's property without their permission even if they aren't harmed.

Agreed entirely.

-clash

Does adding "RPG" to the question really make this more of an RPG-focused thread than the ones which were recently moved?

No.  Agree with CL.

Playing devil's advocate, I voted yes, because there may be a circumstance when it is OK.

In general, my stance is that I do not condone illegal filesharing and do not believe it is morally acceptable.

One possible exception, however, is downloading something to preview before buying. For some strange reason, not everyone makes "light" versions of their games to check out before you buy. Note to publishers: this generates sales! I bought Starcluster2 after reading the light rules. I like to browse through books before I buy them, and this is nigh impossible with many RPGs these days.

The above exception assumes that the person downloading would browse the product and either purchase or delete entirely. I'm of the opinion that doing this in an honest fashion is morally acceptable (if a free light or preview version is not available).

Downloading RPG PDFs with no intention of ever buying the product is unequivocally wrong IMO.

I also think that if you purchase a print version of a product, you should receive the PDF version free and not just available at a discount. I strongly disagree with the practice of charging people for the PDFs when they own the print version and I think the industry has really got the wrong of this one.

If you own a print edition and there is a PDF version for sale, then DL the PDF is wrong. If you own a print version and there is no commercially available PDF, I don't see anything morally wrong with downloading a scan, nor do I see anything morally wrong with scanning your own book for personal use. It may be illegal, but illegal doesn't always equate to immoral.

Again, for the most part I'm strongly against illegal filesharing. There may be a few exceptions, but in all likelihood they are the minority of the downloads.

Quote from: James McMurrayDoes adding "RPG" to the question really make this more of an RPG-focused thread than the ones which were recently moved?

I did not know of any recently moved threads on this topic. And I do think that it is very RPG-related. My gaming friends are quite proud of how much RPG material they download.

Example: At my last M&M game, while we were still hanging around bullshitting, the holds up a CD and says, "This is the hungriest CD ever. It has every All Flesh Must Be Eaten book on it. So you can guess what I'm planning for Halloween."

So at that point I'm boiling, not just because of the blatant disregard, but because his only prior experience with AFMBE was me running a one-shot of it one night when I forgot everyone's Exalted charsheets. So it's almost like I'm partly responsible.

So yeah, IMO it's relevant.

I didn't vote either way; I don't think many harms result from file sharing, but in a developers play, I'd feel pretty poorly about it myself.
I know people that do it, and I usually lean on them pretty hard to buy copies of games they end up liking (which is usually pretty successful; people just like books better, and they're a lot easier to use at an actual session.)

The preview before buying thing doesn't bother me because of this (and I've seen plenty of sales resulting from it) but someone who plays and enjoys a game that they refuse to spend money on rubs me the wrong way.

When it comes to .pdf only products, I think there's some people who flat out refuse to pay for .pdfs, and I think that's pretty bad.

I can give no plain answer. Mostly I damn piracy, especially in the small gaming market where _every_ lost chance of selling a copy severely hurts the company behind it.

The only point where I accept piracy are OOP products that are not available anymore, even not as pay PDF.
As this mostly hits long abandonded game lines without a living company behind it (e.g. Nightlife), they don't even hurt anyone anymore.

In print: no.

Abandonware (a la Underdogs) is another matter.

I voted no (as will most sane publishers).  In most cases, I think anyone that argues otherwise either doesn't have a real grasp of what IP is or has never created anything of consequence with the intent to sell it.  At least, these are the ones who seem to most loudly defend piracy as being acceptable.  

On the flip side (as I mentioned in the FtA! thread on RPGNet), when a lot of people download your game (legally or illegally) the chances increase that some of them will like it enough to start playing and talking about it, and this could possibly lead to sales from those who don't condone piracy.  This is purely looking for the silver lining though.  

I do tend to think it's OK if a game is OOP and not available in legitimate PDF format.  Star Wars WEG comes to mind here.  I'm really not interested in making secondhand booksellers and collectors rich.  

Pete

No, but...

arguments:

a) In the real world you can browse an entire book before making the purchase, whereas you don't have that luxury online.  If you happen to find that you don't like the product, even after browsing it, you can return or resell the book to recoup your outlay.

This is not an option online, at least not at the moment, because it's unenforceable.

Is it morally right to believe that a customer must buy something, almost blind, in order to evaluate it and that if they find that they do not like the product that they have no recourse?

Consumers have rights too and those rights are rarely given any consideration when talking about digital products.  And that's not right either.

b) If I've already purchased a print version of a product, why do I have to pay (roughly) 2/3 the price of the product, on top of the initial outlay, so that I can also have a digital version?

How about a decent discount to owners of a print version who would like to have a nicely indexed digital version as well?

Make the PDFs cheap enough for print version owners and you take away the temptation to dig for a torrent or FTP site.

...

All that being said, the above arguments are just complaints about the reality of business done online, today.  If that's how it's done, that's how it's done, love it or leave it. If you don't like it, grow up and/or work to change how business is done.

Quote from: architect.zerob) If I've already purchased a print version of a product, why do I have to pay (roughly) 2/3 the price of the product, on top of the initial outlay, so that I can also have a digital version?

How about a decent discount to owners of a print version who would like to have a nicely indexed digital version as well?

Make the PDFs cheap enough for print version owners and you take away the temptation to dig for a torrent or FTP site.

Seconded. I buy lots of in-print stuff pdf and books. But I´m not paying twice. A server/convenience fee, I can live with that. But not twice.
This mostly applies to Ptolus: they already had a system in which I [as rightful owner of the expensive book] got the first pdf for free. But not the rest. SUCK!