Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 08, 2023, 09:48:07 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2023, 07:02:04 AM

GMs should prep as much material as makes them comfortable with GMing. But also, Don't Prep Plots.

\

Heh. I prep plots all the time. Every plot prepped however, belongs to an npc or group in the game world. The cult of Grubhabula has a plot to sacrifice enough innocent souls to awaken their dark god. The Duke's nephew is plotting to kill his uncle and take control of the duchy. The riverboat smugglers are plotting to kidnap the mayor's daughter for ransom. The players are free to discover, and interact with any or all of these things as they wish. There will be consequences in the game world whatever they decide to do. The PC's may come up with plots of their own regarding things they might wish to accomplish. I don't see a problem there.

QuoteDictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·

plot
noun
1.
a plan made in secret by a group of people to do something illegal or harmful.

2.
the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence.

I and the article are talking about definition 2. You're bringing up definition 1.

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.

Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...

So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?

Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.

No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.

I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.

By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 11:36:04 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.

Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...

So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?

Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.

No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.

I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.

By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.

Actually I played in several of his games, and good times were had by all. His games were emulating a particular genre that I enjoy and am somewhat knowledgeable about, and he liked having a player that understood the tropes and ran with them. I think the overly-extensive notes were a kind of comfort blanket.

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:39:51 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 11:36:04 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.

Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...

So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?

Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.

No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.

I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.

By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.

Actually I played in several of his games, and good times were had by all. His games were emulating a particular genre that I enjoy and am somewhat knowledgeable about, and he liked having a player that understood the tropes and ran with them. I think the overly-extensive notes were a kind of comfort blanket.

Did you ever try to give him advice on how to do it better? I can write over-extensive notes on key NPCs and in-game political situations to better react to what the players have their characters do. I keep notes on a bunch of side treks to keep the game going if the players do something totally unexpected and I need to stall a bit to recover my own bearings.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2023, 02:45:34 AM

Now, could there be some people who are just not capable of the kind of learning required? In theory, yes, but then those people are probably more suited to run games that involve very little setting; to work in a limited sandbox, like dungeons.

Not a theory. I know personally 2 DMs who completely suck at full blown on the fly DMing. One runs modules. The other spends hours on hours prepping what might as well be modules.

Freeform DMing is not a skill, its an aptitude. And some have it, some do not.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2023, 07:02:04 AM
GMs should prep as much material as makes them comfortable with GMing. But also, Don't Prep Plots.

Unfortunately some DMs do not get this till its too late.

Quote from: Mishihari on July 08, 2023, 07:10:04 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.

Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...

So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?

I can't speak for him of course but my players frequently do the same thing, and I'm quite sure they're not trying to cause problems.  Once you get out of the dungeon there are just so many options that it's impossible to consider them all.  I just try te prep for the most likely ones then roll with whatever actually happens.

Yeah, no matter how much you try to second guess players they can and eventually will do the unexpected. And often it really is accidental.

But I have seen a few who just seem to only be playing to fuck with the DM.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 09, 2023, 04:11:08 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:39:51 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 11:36:04 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.

Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...

So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?

Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.

No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.

I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.

By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.

Actually I played in several of his games, and good times were had by all. His games were emulating a particular genre that I enjoy and am somewhat knowledgeable about, and he liked having a player that understood the tropes and ran with them. I think the overly-extensive notes were a kind of comfort blanket.

Did you ever try to give him advice on how to do it better? I can write over-extensive notes on key NPCs and in-game political situations to better react to what the players have their characters do. I keep notes on a bunch of side treks to keep the game going if the players do something totally unexpected and I need to stall a bit to recover my own bearings.

Of course. I can be rough around the edges with posts here (because it's practically the only place on the net where one can) but IRL I'm actually half agony aunt/half facilitator, and often act as a sounding board and font of advice for all and sundry, in and out of game.

The fellow in question is a good guy, and smart, but incredibly tightly wound, and has some...issues. He uses an extensive system of notes, but is very much someone that insists on doing everything 'just so,' and isn't big on flexibility.

Still, as I said, going off path has never derailed one of his games. I've known GM's that utterly stall if a player slightly deviates from what's in the written adventure, but he's not one of them. That having been said, I've only gone off script as far as finding lines of inquiry or escapes/attacks that he hadn't thought of.

If he got a player that wants to really go off the reservation, I'm pretty sure this GM would slam down his books and storm off home. Which I've seen him do as a player.

Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2023, 04:52:28 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2023, 02:45:34 AM

Now, could there be some people who are just not capable of the kind of learning required? In theory, yes, but then those people are probably more suited to run games that involve very little setting; to work in a limited sandbox, like dungeons.

Not a theory. I know personally 2 DMs who completely suck at full blown on the fly DMing. One runs modules. The other spends hours on hours prepping what might as well be modules.

Freeform DMing is not a skill, its an aptitude. And some have it, some do not.

Exactly. Tabula Rasa is nonsense, lots of people have hard limits on what they can or can't learn, as well as natural aptitudes.

Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2023, 04:58:56 AMBut I have seen a few who just seem to only be playing to fuck with the DM.

I know players who want to 'win' at all costs. Players that want to meta game, and plow through adventures like a steam roller.

The second worse type of player is the "I always play the annoying race/class, so I can act like a dick and call it roleplaying."

The worst type is "my real life is shitty, so in my elf games I just want to kill everyone and blow shit up. I don't care if it's the King, my lone-wolf badass kneels to no man. Roll for attack!"

Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 06:14:04 PM

The PCs are all Gear pilots, I made a 10 level 5e-D&D based Gear Pilot class just for the game, and every player has to play one. Corporal Findlay (Muizz) is a hick from the Western Frontier Protectorate who had to skedaddle when the girl he was courting's Pappy took a dislike to him - and she had a lot of brothers. He pilots a Hunter. Trooper Thorkell (Bill) is a a battle scarred veteran of the War of the Alliance, he just likes to blow stuff up, pilots a Grizzly. I think he also wants to protect the daughter of his dead friend from the war, she (Trooper Amy 'Aimless' Watson) is a novice pilot in his unit - NPC, pilots a Cheetah. Senior Ranger Brent Carter (Rich) is a grizzled veteran NCO, also pilots a Grizzly.

Cool! All that, and the setting info you mentioned upthread is very nice. I'm a big fan of the Interpolar War because it's fought for all the wrong reasons, and all the factions are play, while the two big power blocs are slowly coming apart at the seams. So you can really do anything you like. Personally, I'm a big fan of the Khayr-ad Din Army because it seems to be exactly the sort of place for a bunch of diverse player characters to end up in. Fighting the polars and the GRELS of the NHR on the edge of the Great White Desert, etc...

As you can see, I did my prep for playing on Terranova a long, long time ago... but aside from a handful of one-offs, I haven't returned since 2012. We'll see how the 4e stands up before I consider it...

Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 06:23:12 PM

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2023, 04:29:04 PM
I think that one thing that Pundit is not mentioning: he has done all the prep for his Silk Road campaign! It's called "Sword and Caravan."

Yeah, I think that setting prep is invaluable and can itself back manyfold. If you're doing it right then you shouldn't need to do any prep between sessions; maybe 30 minutes to update your records on what happened last session.

I find that a lot of my prep is specific to whatever the players are about to do: maps, NPCs, obstacles, etc. I ask them at the end of every session "What are you doing/where are you going?" Then I prep for that. If they change their minds, then I try my best to roll with whatever they want, but they have almost always stuck to their plans. Which is rather praiseworthy. It's almost as if they know that this is a game and I'm doing most of the work! :-D

I'd push back a bit. This is probably the right way to run stuff, but it actually isn't natural for everyone (at least not for me). The only time I've every pulled this off is in Vampire LARPS - not the random table part, but the player's doing what they wanted and a fun game coming out of it. At some point I'll pick a campaign idea and then harass all of you into helping me.

To put it a different way, I think the obvious, easy way to run an RPG game is with a canned scenario and plot. Anyone can do that. However, a sandbox campaign isn't easy at all, it just seems easy because it's easy for you.

A great example of this is loopy planning - even if you don't know what that is you're probably doing something like it, where you think about prior sessions, and think about what may have happened, and then extrapolate the next thing that would happen. E.g., player's decided to ignore threat X, so now threat X is a much bigger deal, or player's allied with A, so now A's enemy B is not a fan of them. For most people on this thread, you can easily turn these things into interesting play. I've hardly ever been able to do that (outside of Vampire LARP, and even that was a struggle).

The normal response is that it's just practice, but I'm wondering if that answer is a cultural thing. In our culture, we're not supposed to believe anyone has different capacities - that's a belief that serves liberal capitalism (you're not well off because you didn't apply yourself) and progressives (everyone is just a blank slate, the only differences in outcome are because of oppression). It might be instead that for a smaller group of people good sandbox GMing is very easy, and for a larger group of people it's very hard. And it's not that the smaller group has "worked harder," but they're just built to be better at it.

The best I've been able to do so far is to take published campaigns and hollow them out a bit, which has worked pretty well. I'd like to be more aggressive about hollowing them out (reverse engineering what all the moving parts are).

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2023, 12:05:13 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Khayr-ad Din Army

That's funny considering I just posted this today in the media feed 

SNN media newscast 9.WI.37

"This is Lucia Ferox for Satellite News Network, reporting from Khayr-Ad-Din, the so-called 'City of Duellists'.  The Southern Republic Landship Imperatrice and the infamous 2nd Legion Noire are supporting AST MILICIA in a massive assault on the city! The warrior-gladiators of the KADA are fighting ferociously against the invaders, inflicting heavy losses on the less skilled Gear pilots of the enemy MILICIA. But the KADA are vastly outnumbered, and almost without vital artillery support. Many here fear that unless the North can immediately commit forces to assist KADA, defeat may be inevitable." 


I invented Satellite News Network (SNN), I'm thinking it's a CNCS copy of the Badlands-based SNS network. The AST assault on KAD is part of my plan to immediately deviate from the scripted timeline, since I think it's very important to not get locked in to metaplots.

Quote from: S'mon on July 09, 2023, 01:14:13 PM

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2023, 12:05:13 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Khayr-ad Din Army

That's funny considering I just posted this today in the media feed 

SNN media newscast 9.WI.37

"This is Lucia Ferox for Satellite News Network, reporting from Khayr-Ad-Din, the so-called 'City of Duellists'.  The Southern Republic Landship Imperatrice and the infamous 2nd Legion Noire are supporting AST MILICIA in a massive assault on the city! The warrior-gladiators of the KADA are fighting ferociously against the invaders, inflicting heavy losses on the less skilled Gear pilots of the enemy MILICIA. But the KADA are vastly outnumbered, and almost without vital artillery support. Many here fear that unless the North can immediately commit forces to assist KADA, defeat may be inevitable." 


I invented Satellite News Network (SNN), I'm thinking it's a CNCS copy of the Badlands-based SNS network. The AST assault on KAD is part of my plan to immediately deviate from the scripted timeline, since I think it's very important to not get locked in to metaplots.

Ow, my feelings!

Yeah, KADA probably could stand up to another two-bit army in the Badlands like the NHR (even with GRELs and some hovertanks). But a full landship with airpower and artillery? Unlikely.

Then again, highly skilled gear pilots, along with mercenaries, and fighting-capable locals (of which there would be many, considering it's the Badlands) with access to mountains of trash (military salvage!)... and they know the terrain better than the invaders... It would be an epic defense either way.

I think that the TNTR might be the key to KAD surviving, no? They can tell the AST to back off, lest the gamma maglev gets cut... which would provoke the North to intervene in KAD.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2023, 01:33:41 PM
I think that the TNTR might be the key to KAD surviving, no? They can tell the AST to back off, lest the gamma maglev gets cut... which would provoke the North to intervene in KAD.

Well game date is 10/WI/37. the war is ongoing and the Gamma Maglev has already been cut. AST command believe the North is already fully committed on the Mekong & Eastern fronts, but I think really they'd be quite happy to draw out the thin Northern Guard line along the central CNCS border into the Badlands to fight for KAD, as opposed to strengthening their defenses against an AST offensive.

KADA is inflicting heavy losses on the MILICIA, yes - the AST command see this as "tempering" the MILICIA units with combat experience, prior to a planned push north. The SRA elite 2nd Legion Noire commandos are being held back in support while the MILICIA bears the brunt of the battle.

Needs balance.
1) DM preparing a bunch of events or situations that may or may not occur and locations that players might visit.
or
2) DM spending game time looking up the proper tables, rolling dice, following any subtables it leads to rolling more dice, and noting the results for current play and future reference.