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Moral Values in Fantasy Worlds

Started by S'mon, June 06, 2023, 04:42:59 AM

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rytrasmi

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 06, 2023, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 06, 2023, 10:33:52 AM
I try to have NPCs think and act as people really did. Admittedly it's not easy and often drifts into "bespoke." People of the past really did believe some weird stuff.

Well yeah, but that's not really different than now.  There are people now that believe that the moon landings were faked, that astrology works, and that Elvis lives. 

In many medieval settings, a character might believe that due to a blood imbalance, he tends to get angry a lot--"choleric".  If he acts on that anger, he's still responsible.  The modern equivalent believes that his psychology/mother/father/society/environment/brain/drugs/diet/etc makes him get angry a lot.  If he acts on it, that's his excuse.

People in my games can do anything they want, for whatever reason.  Their excuses don't tend to fly when they run up against someone responsible. That's not exactly politics or morality, but it cuts across both.
My players can do what they please, as well. I just encourage them to explore the morality of the setting, which can be compelling and fun.

You're right that people today believe weird stuff, too. But the popularity of astrology today is quote different from the most learned minds of medicine believing that the planets governed human health.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

hedgehobbit

Quote from: S'mon on June 06, 2023, 04:42:59 AMHistoricist (your PC has the morality appropriate to the setting), Presentist (your PC has the player's own morality, in a world where that may be very weird) and Bespoke (the world is tailored to the players' moral sensibilities).

I guess it's lucky that I am Catholic as are all my players (or, at least, they are Catholic friendly). So my Bespoke morality is very close to Historic morality. That's why this has never been an issue for me.

Baron

When I run games the players will encounter a world and NPCs with its own pseudo-historic outlook. I will have NPCs spout interesting opinions (one of my favorites is "the universe is an onion"), holding slaves, maiming thieves, and colonizing. As someone recently posted, there will be evil unredeemable bugbears. Depending on where they are there may be gender-specific expectations. There is no need for faith when gods make appearances. I can't think of any contemporary outlooks I might have reflected in a setting. But player "reformers" who try to warp the setting into a reflection of their own 21st century morals are going to get laughed out the door.

GeekyBugle

By luck at first and then by design (gatekeeping my table) I've never run with any issue regarding the morality of the game world, I'm on the fade to black lot's of stuff camp, or just plain don't say it happens:

Rape, it does happen but it's never explicitly said so much less described.
Torture, it happens but it's always fade to black, never described.
Slavery, it happens, it's described as a bad thing or as something normal for a culture of the game world,
Sex, it happens (of course) but it's always fade to black.

Those are my rules due to MY sensibilities, I don't subject others to stuff and in return I don't play in tables where those rules aren't followed, I'm at the table to game not to help someone get his rocks off.

Likewise, I sit at the table to get away from the real world, if ANYONE wants to inject current day issues, morals, etc in the game someone is leaving the table (It could be me if it's not MY table).

If someone can't play pretend in a world where the divine right of kings, gods/God exist, etc that someone isn't a good fit for my table and I'm not a good fit for theirs.

For example, my current PC (A wizard from an Empire where slavery is legal) is living in a Kingdom where slavery is banned (but they have serfs), ask me how many times NPCs have tried to convince him that those are totally different things and one is evil but the other isn't?

He's LG, so he follows the laws of the Kingdom, but the cultural shock has made him re-evaluate lots of things, so in a mission to destroy a slavers ring the PCs liberated the slaves and didn't kill them (another law from the Kingdom, both Slaver and slave are to be killed). Maybe because of his morals shifting (or maybe because it's a good economic decision) he treats his serfs a little better than some, having them dressed and fed, due to him comming from a Puritanical society, he had built private housing for the married ones, and is paying them a few coins.

BTW the DM was the one who rolled from where my PC came and his social status there, so I've to roll with that where it agrees with MY morals and where it doesn't.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

S'mon

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 06, 2023, 09:07:03 AM
Would love to see what a Bespoke campaign on Gor looked like. Good luck anyone that tries.

Bespoke means adjusting setting to players, so it could be anything from really playing up the Bondage/Domination/Submission stuff, to getting rid of slavery completely like some WoTC/Paizo thing.
Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html

S'mon

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 06, 2023, 10:10:25 AM
My reading of the historicist category wasn't that it was meant to be a pure emulation of period morality, but that it was about grounding the PCs int he morality of the setting itself.

Yes, that's right - 'historicist' as used by Macris could be anything different from Current Year morality, including ahistorical fantasies like Gor mentioned above.
Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html

S'mon

Quote from: Baron on June 06, 2023, 01:00:01 PM
As someone recently posted, there will be evil unredeemable bugbears.

Yeah, that was me, and some no-longer-players.  ;D
Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html

jhkim

Quote from: S'mon on June 06, 2023, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 06, 2023, 09:07:03 AM
Would love to see what a Bespoke campaign on Gor looked like. Good luck anyone that tries.

Bespoke means adjusting setting to players, so it could be anything from really playing up the Bondage/Domination/Submission stuff, to getting rid of slavery completely like some WoTC/Paizo thing.

I haven't seen the video yet, but Bespoke sounds like it means adapting the existing world for the specific players. So if a given player wants slavery, then Bespoke would be adding slavery. If a given player doesn't want slavery, it means removing slavery. It sounds like group-generated background, like troupe-style play in Ars Magica or ground rules in Microscope or other story games.

That would mean that published settings by definition aren't Bespoke.

Grognard GM

Quote from: jhkim on June 06, 2023, 04:59:56 PM
Quote from: S'mon on June 06, 2023, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 06, 2023, 09:07:03 AM
Would love to see what a Bespoke campaign on Gor looked like. Good luck anyone that tries.

Bespoke means adjusting setting to players, so it could be anything from really playing up the Bondage/Domination/Submission stuff, to getting rid of slavery completely like some WoTC/Paizo thing.

I haven't seen the video yet, but Bespoke sounds like it means adapting the existing world for the specific players. So if a given player wants slavery, then Bespoke would be adding slavery. If a given player doesn't want slavery, it means removing slavery. It sounds like group-generated background, like troupe-style play in Ars Magica or ground rules in Microscope or other story games.

That would mean that published settings by definition aren't Bespoke.

Except no-one is threatening to boycott games unless they add slavery. Much like racial and sexual equality laws, what's on paper is nothing like what happens in practice.

I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

S'mon

Quote from: jhkim on June 06, 2023, 04:59:56 PM
QuoteBespoke means adjusting setting to players, so it could be anything from really playing up the Bondage/Domination/Submission stuff, to getting rid of slavery completely like some WoTC/Paizo thing.

I haven't seen the video yet, but Bespoke sounds like it means adapting the existing world for the specific players. So if a given player wants slavery, then Bespoke would be adding slavery. If a given player doesn't want slavery, it means removing slavery. It sounds like group-generated background, like troupe-style play in Ars Magica or ground rules in Microscope or other story games.

That would mean that published settings by definition aren't Bespoke.

Yes... as I said. But my point re WoTC/Paizo was just that WOTC/Paizo assume a certain POV, basically what they hear from Twitter/Reddit, and they tailor/bowdlerise their material to what they regard as Current Year morality.
Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html

S'mon

Quote from: Grognard GM on June 06, 2023, 05:42:52 PM
Except no-one is threatening to boycott games unless they add slavery. Much like racial and sexual equality laws, what's on paper is nothing like what happens in practice.

I imagine the Gor RPG wouldn't have sold much if GrimJim had removed the slavery.  ;D Also, WoTC say they won't touch Dark Sun, one reason seems to be AFAICT that they won't do a setting with slavery, and it's seen as too central to the setting.

Even Macris' own Roman Empire with no slavery seems pretty odd to me, not sure if I'd want to play that.
Shadowdark Wilderlands (Fridays 6pm UK/1pm EST)  https://smons.blogspot.com/2024/08/shadowdark.html

Grognard GM

Surely the obvious solution is just to replace any slaves with student athletes.
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

Fheredin

Quote from: Grognard GM on June 06, 2023, 09:36:36 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on June 06, 2023, 08:13:40 AM
I almost never run pure historicist campaigns because players don't typically enjoy interacting with NPCs who believe time-appropriate things. It tends to get players heated rather than into roleplay because they don't know how to react when someone believes in the Divine Right of Kings or such.

Sounds like you need better players.

I don't have an environment where I can mulligan players freely, and frankly I'm not sure I would on this account, even if I could. Every good player was bad at roleplay once upon a time, and it was probably the investment of time and effort a group of players and a GM made into them that made them better.

That, and I don't view myself as a particularly talented GM, either (and I have said as such in the past). I get the job done, but it's much more accurate to say that I'm cludgy at GMing and I have a bunch of weird coping mechanisms I've cooked up to make it somewhat less obvious that I'm not amazing at the GM side of the table. I don't judge my players for not being ideal because I don't want them to judge me for not being an ideal GM.


More on topic; I think slavery exists in a weird place where you really don't do historical periods justice if you don't include it at all. The problem I have with it is that the "slavery = bad" mantra was a dead horse before I was born, and yet people still dig it up and beat it all the time. This is a situation I actively try to avoid, but if I can't avoid dealing with Slavery, I do it like Song of the South. If you aren't familiar with the original or the blacklisted Disney adaptation, Uncle Remus is technically a slave, but most of the family views him as a member of the family, as well, and the slaves actually within the story aren't abused. The way I apply that is that unless the players actively search for scumbag NPCs, the people they actually run across will interpret slavery more towards indentured servitude.

Baron

Quote from: Fheredin on June 06, 2023, 06:42:53 PM
If I can't avoid dealing with Slavery, I do it like Song of the South. Uncle Remus is technically a slave, but most of the family views him as a member of the family, as well, and the slaves actually within the story aren't abused. The way I apply that is that unless the players actively search for scumbag NPCs, the people they actually run across will interpret slavery more towards indentured servitude.

I believe that slaves from conquered countries, that were not significantly less advanced then the victors, would've been treated as you describe. As in the Ancient World. When Babylon took Hebrew slaves they weren't treated like African slaves were in the Old South.

jhkim

Quote from: Baron on June 06, 2023, 06:49:13 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on June 06, 2023, 06:42:53 PM
If I can't avoid dealing with Slavery, I do it like Song of the South. Uncle Remus is technically a slave, but most of the family views him as a member of the family, as well, and the slaves actually within the story aren't abused. The way I apply that is that unless the players actively search for scumbag NPCs, the people they actually run across will interpret slavery more towards indentured servitude.

I believe that slaves from conquered countries, that were not significantly less advanced then the victors, would've been treated as you describe. As in the Ancient World. When Babylon took Hebrew slaves they weren't treated like African slaves were in the Old South.

Historical Hebrews in Egypt might have been treated better than Africans in the Old South, but that doesn't mean they were beloved pseudo-family members like fictional Uncle Remus (especially the Disney version that doesn't even mention slavery).


In general, I feel like many posters are disparaging "Modernist" in favor of "Historical" -- but overwhelmingly, my experience is that RPGs set in historical or pseudo-historical eras almost always use much closer to modern morals than historical morals. That's been true ever since I started gaming in the 1970s - it's not a new woke thing. Actual medieval morals for almost all societies come across as extremely callous to modern players, and simply aren't fun to most players. There are a few history buffs who enjoy role-playing different morals, but they're uncommon.

In almost every age, popular historical fiction imposes modern morals on their subject. So 15th century Arthurian romances about 6th century King Arthur mostly reflect 15th century values -- not 6th century. Shakespeare's histories similarly reflected Elizabethan values. Likewise, Tolkien's pseudo-historical Middle Earth mostly reflects more his values in 1930s England more than any medieval values.

There's nothing wrong with that. But one should call it what it is. We're talking about how to engage in Modernism without it seeming too out of place. So slavery exists, but the PCs don't buy slaves to do work for them, for example.