Some of you must own this thing by now; so what is it: the D20 folks stealing the ideas of the White Wolf Swine and doing it right; or a D20 version of a WW Story-based game, that will satisfy no one?
RPGPundit
Inquiring minds want a full review!
I've only had time to glance through it, and to be honest it left me a little cold.
You folks should know by now I'm pretty much a 3.5 guy, though I'm enjoying Star Wars Saga quite a bit. I'm also something of a Monte Cook fanboy, and have nothing but respect for Arcana Evolved and Ptolus. So, I was looking forward to checking this book out. With that said...
* The layout is kind of ugly and difficult on the eyes. There are a lot of white-text-on-black pages, too, which bothers me. The sections seem jumbled & the text is hard to follow at times.
* The crunch factor is extremely high. I've been told by people who've purchased it that it's not that bad, but on first glance it seems to have a higher level of complexity than any other d20 product I could name.
* Each character 'class' is even more of a set of rules unto itself than in D&D. The abilities are many & varied.
Now, these are all first impressions and I didn't get deep into the book. For one thing, I was just sitting at a table in Borders and reading it. For another, the aforementioned annoying layout encouraged me to put it down :)
-O
I don't really see the point of it.
Quote from: signoftheserpentI don't really see the point of it.
Had it came out a decade ago, I would have assumed it was designed for fellows like me who fancy goth chicks but loathe d10 pools.
The reactions to it I've read are mixed. Most d20 players are loving what he's done with the system, whilst the WW fans are outraged that it's not nWoD.
It looks like an interesting system, but I'm not so sure about the post-apocalyptic setting. I'll probably flick through a copy should I come across it, but at the moment there's far too much stuff I'd rather buy instead (City of Brass, for instance).
Quote from: DrewThe reactions to it I've read are mixed. Most d20 players are loving what he's done with the system, whilst the WW fans are outraged that it's not nWoD.
It looks like an interesting system, but I'm not so sure about the post-apocalyptic setting. I'll probably flick through a copy should I come across it, but at the moment there's far too much stuff I'd rather buy instead (City of Brass, for instance).
Post apocalyptic setting? WTF?
So if it isn't nwod, whats the setting?
Quote from: signoftheserpentPost apocalyptic setting? WTF?
According to the previews, a year ago Lovecraftian beings known as the Inconnu intruded into our reality in South Dakota, leaving behind an all-destroying "Conflagration" that's 300 miles in diameter. A mutant-spawning wasteland called "the Annihilation Zone" extends about a hundred miles further, and the whole area is under a military quarantine. That's basically the cause of all evil: before the Intrusion, the setting was exactly like our Earth, without any vampires or werewolves or mages. There doesn't seem to be any secret history in the game like there is in the other WoDs.
(Here (http://www.white-wolf.com/index.php?related=871&id=794) is some linkage to those previews.)
It's not nearly as crunchy as Spycraft 2.0, but yeah it's more crunchy than pretty much any other OGL game I can think of offhand. Personally I would have liked to see a lot more streamlining (Use Rope is still a skill... WTF?) -- it just doesn't feel polished to me. That said, I'm still decently happy with the purchase although I agree that for the price tag they could have done a lot better visually.
I don't really dig the PA setting, but it's easy enough to just use the mechanics for your own d20 modern-supernatural setting.
KoOS
I just got done playing it tonight actually. It was a VERY fun time. I had two Demon and Two Mage players.
The setting I've created is a very Escape from New York style Los Angeles (Not Escape from LA, more gritty than the over the top campiness of ELA). The Nightmare Wave had spread a supernatural disease called "Angel Wings" through the city killing over 400,000 people in 12 days. The "disease" has stopped spreading as rapidly, but cases are still appearing keeping paranoia high in the area.
This shot LA's productivity through the basement floor. Shops, Malls and Hospitals left understaffed quickly became targets for the unscrupolous and desperate alike. Riots broke out, many stores have been looted and the majority of Los Angeles has become a desperate sprawl.
The US goverment dispatched a large force of Milatary soldiers to "quarantine" the area. Since the area is too dangerous (with warring tribes gangs, Nightmare spawned creatures, and god knows what else) to actually try to fix or inviestigate all they do is make sure no one gets in or out. Scouts and patrols are sent in in regular intervals strictly for tactical recon. Los Angeles is strictly looked upon as a homeland security risk.
The Magic system is awesome. I see how it's balanced in play. Mages can do ANYTHING...until they run out of components
I love how each "character type" is so versatile. You can build any character type to fill almost any niche (although healer is pretty much only accomplishable by the Mage, but a Demon can eventually).
I don't know...any specific questions about it?
Quote from: KrakaJakI don't know...any specific questions about it?
How are supernatural types implemented? Is being a vampire/werewolf/mage/demon/whatever a class, a race, a template, or what? How, for example, are a werewolf and a vampire mechanically distinguished from each other?
So really it's got next to nothing to do with the world of darkness.
Quote from: signoftheserpentSo really it's got next to nothing to do with the world of darkness.
It's
a World of Darkness as "reimagined" by Monte Cook, rather than a straight d20 conversion of any earlier WoD: a whole new setting that's as different from oWoD and nWoD as they are from each other.
Quote from: hgjsHow are supernatural types implemented? Is being a vampire/werewolf/mage/demon/whatever a class, a race, a template, or what? How, for example, are a werewolf and a vampire mechanically distinguished from each other?
Vampires, Werewolves, Mages and Demon's are treated like classes, for the most part, they're called "Character Type" in this. You cannot Multiclass (or I guess I should say they're not designed to be).
Each character type has it's own significant special features, and special weaknesses. They all have their own Exclusive Feat lists called Disciplines, Rites, Cants, and Gnosis lists (except for Awakened, who only have access to the regular Feats list). Your character type determines you HD, Attack Bonus and Bonus Saves.
So they're treated like classes mechanicly, but their actually more like your race. Your "Character Focus" is more like your class (and is mechanically similar to your race). Your focus gives you +2 on a relevant stat and determines your "focus skills" (class skills). You can change you focus at every level, you lose the bonus to the previous stat and gain the new one, and your class skills change to your new focus rather than combine. Focus skills and Cross-Focus skills have the same cap of 6+ Character level.
Something I was very pleased with is how the charcters "feel" very differently mechanicaly. Demons, for example, which are perfect shapeshifters, can give themselves a +2 bonus to two different stats and then change those every day. Awakened gain a statistical advantage (more skill points, more starting attribute bonuses) but end up feeling very natural rather than supernatural. Mages need Components to remain a help to the group, and powerful magic burns through components so quick that mages suddenly become very careful what they use their Magic for "just in case".
Quote from: KrakaJakMages need Components to remain a help to the group, and powerful magic burns through components so quick that mages suddenly become very careful what they use their Magic for "just in case".
Is there still Paradox?
Quote from: hgjsIs there still Paradox?
Nope, and werewolves don't drive people insane, and vampires aren't covered by a Masquerade: in short, nothing stops them from acting in plain sight, except for a mild cover-up by the US government which isn't about to tell anyone else what it knows. In another year, you could probably expect the setting to look much like
Shadowrun, since there's no way for so many supernatural creatures to avoid public attention indefinitely.
Quote from: GrimGentNope, and werewolves don't drive people insane, and vampires aren't covered by a Masquerade: in short, nothing stops them from acting in plain sight, except for a mild cover-up by the US government which isn't about to tell anyone else what it knows. In another year, you could probably expect the setting to look much like Shadowrun, since there's no way for so many supernatural creatures to avoid public attention indefinitely.
Actually, there is no point in them hiding whatsoever. Since it's prety common kknowledge that the world has gone crazy, weird shit is happening everywhere. Then there's that mile high tear in reality right in the middle of the midwest.
Not to mention that while in the oWoD the Camarilla enforced the rule of one vampire per a hundred thousand mortals in a city, in MCWoD more than one percent of Chicago's population consists of vampires...
MCvampire:
Quote from: AosMCvampire:
How many RPG threads has that pic been a part of? :)
It'll always be a classic. Especially as an Unknown Armies reference!
It just seemed appropriate; I don't know where I even got it originally.
Ok, so it does sound to me like Monte took all that was pretentious, angsty, or artsy out of it and just went for the cool all-hell-breaks-loose setting?
And I assume the D20 isn't so changed that it alters the roles of GMs or the rights of players?
RPGPundit
I like all that stuff!
Fuck it, I just ordered it on Amazon. That AP totally sold me, even if I'm just reading it.
Quote from: joewolzThat AP totally sold me, even if I'm just reading it.
me too. i had flipped through it at my local borders and disliked the layout as well. ended up putting it down before i got to all the good, crunchy bits, i guess.
i'll wait until one pops up cheap on ebay, tho. dunno any gaming book that i'll spend that much on.
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, so it does sound to me like Monte took all that was pretentious, angsty, or artsy out of it and just went for the cool all-hell-breaks-loose setting?
And I assume the D20 isn't so changed that it alters the roles of GMs or the rights of players?
RPGPundit
Pretty much.
He open's the book with a funny story about him meeting Mark Rein.Hagen, and how was a pretentious prick asshole to him (but he had an awesome game). Now, here he is with a license to take Mark's world and doing whatever the fuck he wants with it!
As far as compatibility goes:
It has use rope as a skill...
It's so close to the SRD that you can take the characters through the Worlds Largest Dungeon, without changing anything...if you wanted:) The characters just count as 4th level instead of first. He wanted it to be compatible with the majority of D20/OGL mateiral so you would have a whole slough of resources of things to throw at the players ( a GREAT move, considering this is the ONLY book in the series)
I actually bought a D&D Monster Manual for this game.
The setting idea is still leaving me cold. If I did ever buy it then I'd probably use it for a fantasy campaign, as KrakaJak suggests.
Quote from: DrewThe setting idea is still leaving me cold. If I did ever buy it then I'd probably use it for a fantasy campaign, as KrakaJak suggests.
Like most of Monte's settings, they are built well to play...not nesisarily to read.
I run it as a Horror/Adventure game, actually. I'm thinking of putting the worlds largest Dungeon underneath Disneyland :)
This strikes me as what that D20 modern Shadow setting should have been.
Quote from: KrakaJakLike most of Monte's settings, they are built well to play...not nesisarily to read.
Maybe so. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but a sudden influx of supernaturals into the modern world just feels a bit played out and hokey to me.
QuoteI run it as a Horror/Adventure game, actually. I'm thinking of putting the worlds largest Dungeon underneath Disneyland
Now that's a game I WOULD play in.
"Hey look everyone! It's the Dungeons & Dragons ride!"
:D
Well I just got this game friday, and I have to say I'm hooked. Now I like storyteller and d20 so really don't have any biases when it comes to that...but I think this game does alot of d20 "right". My group just did character creation last night, and I'll be running our first game today, I've got a werewolf, an awakened, a mage and a demon so far.
I think the way the skill sysytem works is cool. You pick a skill focus that covers a wide variety of generally connected skills, like Might or Intellect...this determines your cross-class and class skills but also gives you a +2 in the ability associated with it(You know like through actually training in these skills you did get stronger or smarter.). Next you pick 2 skill themes. These skill themes are slightly narrower than your skill focus and give you 3 ranks in every skill they cover, last but not least you also get skill points to divide anyway you want.
The magic system has already been discussed, but let me reiterate...it is one of the best innovations for d20 I have purchased and will probably use it for way more than MCWoD.
As far as the setting goes...again I like it. People are saying it is post-apocalyptic, but the area that is full on Mad Max is small compared to the rest of the world. There are degrees across the U.S. as to how far a certain area has come under the effect of the Nightmare Wave, so it really accomodates a wide variety of setting styles...from full on road warrior mages and mutated packs of werewolfs battling in a desolate wasteland to the more subtle cults of Unbidden worshippers must be stopped by an everyday working joe whose discovered he's an awakened style up to the...what have I become, are there others like me style furthest from the intrusion point. This IMHO, is the best thing about the setting, we could all be playing MCWoD and have very different play experiences.
Well hopefully today we'll be playing our first game and I'll be able to post an AP sometime this week.
Damn, and my copy still decays in customs. :(
Quote from: RPGPunditAnd I assume the D20 isn't so changed that it alters the roles of GMs or the rights of players?
Yeah, it runs the same as a standard Storyteller or D&D game - the GM makes the setting and runs the NPCs, the players run PCs that affect the setting and interact with the NPCs and setting. No change from the standards of the Storyteller system gaming except for the mechanics change to d20.
And I love Post Apocalyptic RPGs, so this is a fun read so far.
I can't wait to get my copy...please ship it soon, Amazon!
Quote from: Ghost_FaceAs far as the setting goes...again I like it. People are saying it is post-apocalyptic, but the area that is full on Mad Max is small compared to the rest of the world. There are degrees across the U.S. as to how far a certain area has come under the effect of the Nightmare Wave, so it really accomodates a wide variety of setting styles...from full on road warrior mages and mutated packs of werewolfs battling in a desolate wasteland to the more subtle cults of Unbidden worshippers must be stopped by an everyday working joe whose discovered he's an awakened style up to the...what have I become, are there others like me style furthest from the intrusion point. This IMHO, is the best thing about the setting, we could all be playing MCWoD and have very different play experiences.
Yeah...I got a few ideas for settings/campaigns from reading the book. Like:
*Goverment Conspiracy, just throw in some Dark Matter D20 and things'll get really crazy.
* High-Power human trafficking, I.E. the elder game. High power PC's selfishly trying to move and control "the herd" of humanity.
* Wizards Tower, where the PC's are adventuring cross country, having all kinds of adventures trying to reach the Big Bad Guy (which is actually a Mind Flayer that's become Secretary of Defense).
* Standard Horror, haunted houses/woods/whatever and strange things happeining in the smaller towns.
It is really interesting mix of traditional White Wolf and traditional Wizards of the Coast design. Not that it is just the best of both worlds. It seems to me, it has some issues, but it will need deeper examination to decide.
What I really miss is some merging of the skills like SW Saga. :(
Jesus K. Reist, it's Rifts D20!
...sort of...
Quote from: C.JayJesus K. Reist, it's Rifts D20!
...sort of...
Yes, it could REALLY go that way.
Really, it will be up to the group playing as to where the game goes since it is an unsupported game line. If things keep getting worse, it can really become a RIFTS d20 setting. If things remain as-is, it can become a dark shadowrun setting. If things get "better" it can become a Dark Conspiracy game. If things go REALLY downhill, it could become Twilight 2000 with kewl powerz.
From what I know, the book is stand alone, never to be supplemented.
It's also freaking awesome.
I finally read it. I have mixed feeling about this.
GOOD:
It is good old d20 system
The recreation of WoD is well done
Spellcasting
Paper, page layout, that kind of stuff
Index
Post-apocalyptic horror idea
Vampires, Awakned, ... as a class
BAD:
Somehow the system is pretty rules-heavy (more than Spycraft), I would vote for less
Skills - they should be seriously merged
Cover art - H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E
Interior art - E-V-E-N M-O-R-E H-O-R-R-B-L-E
Feats - why the hell just Ctr+C Ctrl+V from DnD
NEUTRAL:
Shortstories - pretty atmosferic and nice, but not that good
Fluff - fine but not great
GM section - not bad, but CoC d20 has it better
This game would be great two years ago. Now with SW Saga Edition and other d20 improvements this is seriously step back in design. Anyway I will tweak this issues, so than it should be fine.