TheRPGSite

You may have heard about the recent controversy over the depiction of native american culture in Monte Cook Games' The Strange RPG.

Well, something genuinely great came out of it:

Anthony Pastores, who does the wonderful Pacific Northwest-themed Straits of Anian (http://straitsofanian.blogspot.com) blog got hired on (http://www.montecookgames.com/cypher-chronicles-vol-17-2015/) to write new Native content.

Anthony not only knows his native folklore backwards and forwards, he writes great stuff…

If a Cannibal Bird is fated to appear and quick motivation is needed, a d20 may be thrown to determine what exactly the creature thinks it's up to:

1 Hunting humans to eat. It will likely attack.

2 Feasting on corpses. If the party was looking for someone, here they are.

3 Harassing a cannibal. The bird is tormenting a Cannibal Dancer or Untamed Wind for its own amusement.

4 Reminiscing. "I remember you, or perhaps an ancestor, hm... Tell me the story of when I last met you, man-thing."

5 Bored. Simply bored, the creature will banter until it gets hungry.

6 Acting out an ancient drama. The Wind that Bites from the Dark once instrumented a great calamity here, or slew a great hero. The bird wishes to reenact this, and you arrived just in time to facilitate. Roll reaction to determine how dangerous a role it has in mind.

7 Making war. There are two cannibal birds here either fighting each other or engaging in a contest (roll again to determine its character).

8 Witnessing savagery. The bird has heard of a great cruelty or tragedy, natural or man-made, occurring or about to occur, which it wishes to observe. If none manifests it will create one, figuring that it itself must be the cause, though it did not know this beforehand.

9 Destroying man-made objects. The bird is tearing down buildings, defacing sculptures, altering trail signs, or otherwise warping humanity's mark on the environment.

10 Dressing itself in grave goods. The beast is pulling clothing from a corpse or pile of refuse, which it will proceed to wear incorrectly. It solicits opinions on its aspect from any onlookers. Anything other than excessive flattery angers it.

11 Hiding and observing. You are being watched really obviously, but without interference. It is far too big to hide behind that bush, or far too humanoid to perch on that branch. It leaves after a few turns, but only if unacknowledged.

12 Pretending to be a human. The bird wants to play at being a headman; you will be the slaves. It wants you to construct a makeshift village out of found materials (or occupy an abandoned one) and go through the drudgery of daily life. In a day or two it will get bored and just wander off.

13 Telling a lie. There is a very specific thing it needs to tell to you and only you. This thing is absolutely untrue; assuming otherwise leads to catastrophe.

14 Building something. The bird is constructing a sculpture or effigy (d6: 1. giant spiky nest, 2. wicker man, 3. intricate maze, 4. wooden cages dangling from branches, 5. mosaic of many colors, 6. elaborate gauntlet of traps and snares) from detritus & human remains. It may ask a critique, or force intruders to assist in finding the perfect finishing piece.

15 Doesn't remember. "I have forgotten my purpose here. You tell me." It attacks if the answer is completely against its nature but otherwise follows the instruction exactly.

16 Asking questions. The bird has questions about the nature of humanity. It has no context whatsoever with which to understand the answer and will become frustrated and angry when it doesn't.

17 Learning to be a human. "Teach me to be like you." It copies the player's actions exactly, becoming angry if the player performs an action it cannot.

18 Collecting shinies. "You have many shiny objects. Give me all of them." All of these are immediately put to use as self-adornment, or littered on the ground (equal chance).

19 Starting fires. The bird starts a fire, fans it with its wings, watches it burn for a moment or a day, and then puts it out again, over and over and over. It only acknowledges intruders if interrupted.

20 Singing to the sky. Carrion birds circle overhead as the bird caws a semi-intelligible tune at the sky. Any human copying the song finds that it incites birds to attack them suddenly, which causes the Cannibal Bird to laugh. It attacks if any of these birds are injured, but does not otherwise do harm. The song continues to work long after the meeting but cannot be taught to others.


...so it's awesome that its getting a chance to be seen by a wider audience:

Man! A cursory glance of that blog shows some great content! Somehow I'd never caught wind of him.
Good stuff, a new blog to follow.

1. Cannibal Bird sounds utterly awesome.

2. Countdown to SJW outrage over Anthony Pastores in 3...2...1...

So y'know what'll happen? All the people who took advantage of the original situation with The Strange to post little "How I Would've Handle This So Much Better" posts and messages about how great and inclusive they are will have nothing to be outraged about and will probably, therefore, post nothing at all about this.

...so, following a depressing pattern, people who claim to be extremely exercised about minority representation in gaming will ignore the fact that an actual Native writer who writes about actual Native settings and characters is getting a shot at the big(ger) time because it's not a Hey Everyone Freak Out message that makes the outraged citizen themself look good.

So the obvious opportunity to encourage actual, undeniable progress along by supporting Anthony will be passed over because it doesn't provide an easy way to make them look good or smart or More Engaged Than Thou.

Quote from: Zak S;828571Well here's the thing: What's to get outraged about? He's native, he knows his shit, he's a good writer, he doesn't say any crazy right-wing bullshit.

Why couldn't they find a Native woman to write the setting? Monte Cook is obsessed with perpetuating the harmful patriarchal systems that dominate the roleplaying industry. Anyone who saw his misogynstic Nibovian "wives" could see this coming from a hundred miles away.

... controversy ta-da.

I'm pleased to learn that Monte Cook Games was able to make the best of a shitty situation (I was quite disgusted to read them called genocide profiteers ...).

But I'm somehow worrying that the decent reponse by decent people will prompt not so decent people to made libellous campaigns to change things in RPGs books that unpleased them. Time will tell ...

Regardless, there are lots of good ideas to plunder from his site :P

Quote from: fellowhoodlum;828594Regardless, there are lots of good ideas to plunder from his site :P

Definitely. I think he has classes and stuff to, so if you want to run a whole Pac Northwest campaign you could though I mostly plunder it for ideas for coastal and overland adventures.

And he makes ghosts interesting, which isn't easy.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;828589Why couldn't they find a Native woman to write the setting? Monte Cook is obsessed with perpetuating the harmful patriarchal systems that dominate the roleplaying industry. Anyone who saw his misogynstic Nibovian "wives" could see this coming from a hundred miles away.

... controversy ta-da.

Ah but they got that covered, too, Alina Pete is doing the art.

Our group recently began a Primeval Thule campaign, so all these mythic Pacific Northwest ideas would certainly add more flavour to the setting...

Hee~ey, now that's an interesting blog to me right now. Very Pac NW focused from what I've seen so far, but maybe more good stuff if I dig. Currently running Great Basin stuff and have been running several Native websites and an online Shoshone dictionary. Perhaps they have a few spirit legends worth incorporating. Already had to re-skin & hammer out new 5e NA-equivalent monsters before the MM published, but if I ever take this setting off RAW for another campaign...

By the way, welcome back! :)

great blog. i think that he has done some work for slumbering ursine dunes too.

Great news. I think his stuff is fantastic. Something genuinely cool will have come from all this.

Doesn't matter how authentic the writer is, people are going to gripe at any non-native GM who then tries to run it. I'm serious, I've seen that level of resistance to cultural appropriation.

This is fantastic news! I love, love, love his blog. This will, hopefully, give him some greater visibility and renown in the RPG community. He deserves it.

...and prompt him to write a full game set in the Pacific Northwest :)

Glad to hear that at least one online controversy resulted in gaming awesomeness.

Quote from: Zak S;828599Ah but they got that covered, too, Alina Pete is doing the art.

Yeah, but is she sufficiently black and lesbian as well?

And if yes, she probably still doesn't use a Mac laptop, so WHITE PATRIARCHY.
[/facetious]

One correction: Alina Pete is coauthor for written material. Artist not to my knowledge announced, apart from that MCG has been in contact with native artists.

That's a damned cool blog. Good news here.

Quote from: antion;828671One correction: Alina Pete is coauthor for written material. Artist not to my knowledge announced, apart from that MCG has been in contact with native artists.

My bad, thanks

Quote from: Zak S;828571Well here's the thing: What's to get outraged about? He's native, he knows his shit, he's a good writer, he doesn't say any crazy right-wing bullshit.

When has there not actually being anything to be outraged about actually stopped them? Hell, the original controversy was drummed up unless you took the Thunder Plain completely out of context.

Still, that material looks pretty interesting so it seems like the new writer was a good choice.

While I dont think they should have caved in to the loony demands. Looks like they got someone interesting to handle the content.

I agree that even appearing to cave to these fuckwits just empowers them. That being said, I looked at that blog this morning, and the guy definitely has good material and knows his shit.

They should have done the best of both worlds.
- Keep the original Thunder Plains as is since the complaints against it were horseshit.
- Hired the new guy to do a new badass supplement.

What saddens me about this news, is that they caved in to a group of people who will never be satisfied, and will likely never play this game, ever.  All they want is attention, and they got it.

No, it's a much better story than that:

Anthony got it.

…and this is the Achilles heel of people who whale of social issues just in order to advertise themselves or prosecute grudges or who just thoughtlessly endorse people who do:

The people actually doing smart, good work with staying power are actually diverse and are actually glad to encourage real diversity.

The ideal model for the Drama Club is:

1. Someone points out a real or imagined misstep by an RPG person

2. Usually cishet, usually white, usually male Drama Club member sweeps in, makes a "powerful" statement of Not Being That Other Guy, reaps the spoils for having done so in the form of esteem from fellow Drama Club members.

But in fact, what happens in a genuine creative environment is:

1. Someone points out a real or imagined misstep by an RPG company

2. Usually cishet, usually white, usually male Drama Club member sweeps in, makes a "powerful" statement of Not Being That Other Guy.

3. People who are actually invested in solving the actual problem ignore that person and look at the problem that the alleged misstep points to get to work looking for solutions to the underlying problem whether or not the alleged misstep was related to it or not (after all, for example, nonwestern cultures are under-represtented in games whether or not MCG is extra-responsible for it).

4. The solutions are better than what the Drama Club could come up with because the Drama Club only creates drama, it doesn't actually concern itself with solving problems.

5. The solutions last and get built on.

Drama is temporary, real work is permanent.

--The connections women made at Contessa aren't going away, the work trans artists do working at LotFP isn't going away, the work the all-female design team Frog God hired isn't going away, the diverse people appearing in the art in the recent wave of OSR products isn't going away, Yoon-Suin isn't going away, and whatever Anthony writes for MCG will be available for download as long as RPGs are downloadable.

And the people who did those things will meet people and be able to put what they did on their resume or in their portfolio. You can't put "I complained about Carcosa and got 52 likes" on your resume.

Because real progress and real money made by real creators and real connections and real things for gamers last. Dipshit whining doesn't.

Quote from: Zak S;828725No, it's a much better story than that:

Anthony got it.

The point is, they never need for him to 'Get it'.  Now, given the source of the material he's got, it's nice that he's got the work, but there was nothing requiring him to get hired.  Which now, might mean the book costs more (maybe, maybe not.)

The issue remains that they gave in to the 'terrorists'.  And that will only embolden them more.  And we don't need that.

If the rest of Anthony's blog is as good as that last post, then The Strange is going to get some pretty awesome material.

To Hell with the drama and the predictions of further drama, focus on the awesome.

Quote from: JamesV;828737To Hell with the drama and the predictions of further drama, focus on the awesome.

Yup, after all that is said and done, we're gonna keep playing.

Quote from: JamesV;828737If the rest of Anthony's blog is as good as that last post,...

It is--Anthony isn't one of those guys who just writes whatever whenever he feels like it, he updates only rarely but when he does, it's a long, solid chunk of thought-out, digestible gameable material.

Congrats to a good writer for getting a gig.  Shame on the SJW for suppressing creativity and free thought.  They will all be eaten by their children.

Quote from: Zak S;828599Ah but they got that covered, too, Alina Pete is doing the art.

i hope your right but im sure they will find a way

Quote from: CRKrueger;828713They should have done the best of both worlds.
- Keep the original Thunder Plains as is since the complaints against it were horseshit.
- Hired the new guy to do a new badass supplement.

that does seem the best way to go around it

in some ways it might not make a lot of in setting sense to do so but we will have to wait for it to come out to know that

Quote from: tuypo1;828757that does seem the best way to go around it

in some ways it might not make a lot of in setting sense to do so but we will have to wait for it to come out to know that

Can multiple Recursion with similar themes exist? Like a Leave it Beaver Plesantville like 50s Recursion and a "Greasers cool street toughs 50s style recursion?

Quote from: Nexus;828766Can multiple Recursion with similar themes exist? Like a Leave it Beaver Plesantville like 50s Recursion and a "Greasers cool street toughs 50s style recursion?

Absolutely. There's pretty much no limit on recursions. So you could have a "racist stereotype Injun" recursion based on popular misconceptions next door to one that's actually fairly historically accurate that was created thousands of years ago by the stories of a real native people living along the Pacific coast. And over there? There might be one that was created by an obsessed Cleveland Indians fan who watched Major League too many times. That one's really weird.

Quote from: Brand55;828768Absolutely. There's pretty much no limit on recursions. So you could have a "racist stereotype Injun" recursion based on popular misconceptions next door to one that's actually fairly historically accurate that was created thousands of years ago by the stories of a real native people living along the Pacific coast. And over there? There might be one that was created by an obsessed Cleveland Indians fan who watched Major League too many times. That one's really weird.

well then i suppose it works fine

Quote from: Zak S;828727You can't put "I complained about Carcosa and got 52 likes" on your resume.

So... on-point.

Checking out Anthony's blog based on this thread.

Quote from: Zak S;828727Because real progress and real money made by real creators and real connections and real things for gamers last. Dipshit whining doesn't.

Good point.

If a hiring is because the person is qualified and skilled, and not just to fill some demographic quota, then I have no problem with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;829143If a hiring is because the person is qualified and skilled, and not just to fill some demographic quota, then I have no problem with it.

Unfortunately this is not the case. Which is annoying as all hell.

Why didnt they just have this guy make an amazing new native american setting for them?

Instead the SJWs score a (minor? major?) victory. The game has to be retooled and possibly delayed. And we can expect to see more of this bullying. (Not like there was  exactly a dearth of it before.)

its a minor victory for them but how much they got shot down in the surender speech was awesome

but in the end it will result in something good so i will take what i can get. Besides nothings getting delayed the games already out.

While I've rolled my eyes at some over-the-top accusations of Cultural Appropriation out there, I think that it's a good bonus to include a writer who's from the actual culture that's being written about. It can bring in some perspective and detail that we might otherwise miss.

Quote from: RPGPundit;829143If a hiring is because the person is qualified and skilled, and not just to fill some demographic quota, then I have no problem with it.

It seems to be a little column A and a little Column B but generally I think it was a good move.

Quote from: Brand55;828768Absolutely. There's pretty much no limit on recursions. So you could have a "racist stereotype Injun" recursion based on popular misconceptions next door to one that's actually fairly historically accurate that was created thousands of years ago by the stories of a real native people living along the Pacific coast. And over there? There might be one that was created by an obsessed Cleveland Indians fan who watched Major League too many times. That one's really weird.

That's pretty cool. You can really keep your players guessing and draw on allot of inspirational material. Though if this game is set in the modern age some of the Internet inspired Recursions probably redefine bizarre...

Quote from: Nexus;829164It seems to be a little column A and a little Column B but generally I think it was a good move.

i think thats the best way to put it

Sweet stuff! Can't wait to use it when I get to my The Strange game.

Quote from: tuypo1;829151its a minor victory for them but how much they got shot down in the surrender speech was awesome

but in the end it will result in something good so i will take what i can get. Besides nothings getting delayed the games already out.

Would someone be kind enough to post links to the original drammaz, as well as the Surrender Speech.

I love reading the SJW's wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I'm looking forward to reading more about this latest Moral Minority Outrage, but I can just imagine the cries of "Cultural Appropriation".

Sure it's cool to have a Native American Author doing writing about Native America mythology, but in the end so what if he is Native or not. If he writes good stuff that's all that matters. It's insulting to Anthony to imply he got hired on his "Nativeness" rather than the Strength of his ideas and writing.

What if he wrote a blog about King Arthur mythology. Would these same SJW's scream Cultural Appropriation then? No of course not. Because what they are really offended by is Straight White Males writing about nothing other than the life of Straight White Males.

In their world only Egyptians can be Egyptologists. Only Women can be Gynaecologists, etc. Do these same people get upset when they walk into a Sushi Bar and see a Latino Chef making the Sushi.

F*%king A-holes every last one if them.

Quote from: Zak S;828548You may have heard about the recent controversy over the depiction of native american culture in Monte Cook Games' The Strange RPG.

Well, something genuinely great came out of it:

Anthony Pastores, who does the wonderful Pacific Northwest-themed Straits of Anian (http://straitsofanian.blogspot.com) blog got hired on (http://www.montecookgames.com/cypher-chronicles-vol-17-2015/) to write new Native content.

One last thing

I wanted to say thanks to Zak S for posting about Athony's Blog. I grew up in Vancouver and always loved the PNW mythology of the local Indian bands. Stories of Wild Meb of the woods, Giant Orca's, Angry Ghosts and Haida warriors in Wooden Armour.

I've read a bunch of his blog already and it's great stuff. If you're reading this Anthony thank you for all the idea inspiring stuff on your blog.

Quote from: Gwarh;829668Because what they are really offended by is Straight White Males writing about nothing other than the life of Straight White Males.

Some people are offended that there is just too much writing being done by Straight White Males.

Disgusted by the majority of the behavior displayed in this thread and also predictable as ever.

Everything is superficial for liberals like 90% of everyone here till the point they're beyond reasoning with and like talking towards a brick wall from my own personal experience.

Or maybe gaming sites like this one are hotbeds for GamerGate which is pretty clear.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829671Disgusted by the majority of the behavior displayed in this thread and also predictable as ever.

Everything is superficial for liberals like 90% of everyone here till the point they're beyond reasoning with and like talking towards a brick wall from my own personal experience.

Or maybe gaming sites like this one are hotbeds for GamerGate which is pretty clear.

Lazy, uninspired, cookie cutter attempt. Troll has done no research, completely unfamiliar with site demographics or high-profile individuals. Copy-and-paste text with no site-specific customisation whatsoever. Outdated external references. Poor grammar and textual cohesion.

Troll score: 1/10.

Quote from: Premier;829682Lazy, uninspired, cookie cutter attempt. Troll has done no research, completely unfamiliar with site demographics or high-profile individuals. Copy-and-paste text with no site-specific customisation whatsoever. Outdated external references. Poor grammar and textual cohesion.

Troll score: 1/10.

That's right, I guess anyone who disagrees with you is automatically labeled a "Troll" as if you have nothing left to back up your bullshit other than "do your research" which is the same catchpraise that conspiracy theorists use which is so identical which isn't funny. Ironically enough, it's people like yourself are uneducated on where that your blindly hated target called "SJW" are coming from and if you want to talk 'research' then it is rather you need to step outside of your gaming and 4Chan/Reddit circles and start educating yourself on the issue but it is unlikely you ever will because you're most likely a privileged white male or suffering from internalization that you're trained not to see oppression around you because it's invisible to you which I know any reply saying otherwise is just exactly what I'm pointing out.

Also I've pretty seen the site demographic already which is what I was calling out including you.

Or otherwise Fuck You.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829699That's right, I guess anyone who disagrees with you is automatically labeled a "Troll" as if you have nothing left to back up your bullshit other than "do your research" which is the same catchpraise that conspiracy theorists use which is so identical which isn't funny. Ironically enough, it's people like yourself are uneducated on where that your blindly hated target called "SJW" are coming from and if you want to talk 'research' then it is rather you need to step outside of your gaming and 4Chan/Reddit circles and start educating yourself on the issue but it is unlikely you ever will because you're most likely a privileged white male or suffering from internalization that you're trained not to see oppression around you because it's invisible to you which I know any reply saying otherwise is just exactly what I'm pointing out.

Also I've pretty seen the site demographic already which is what I was calling out including you.

Or otherwise Fuck You.

lol

In news of things that matter, Straits of Anian is top-shelf stuff. I'm pleased to see someone with obvious talent for the work get a chance to get paid for it.

Quote from: SineNomine;829700lol

In news of things that matter, Straits of Anian is top-shelf stuff. I'm pleased to see someone with obvious talent for the work get a chance to get paid for it.

And you think I'm somehow getting payed for this? Get's to show how little you know and how quickly you jump into conclusions and incredibly paranoid too just like conspiracy theorists who use the "Shill" argument which is also identical as if you're trying to cast me into some large conspiracy that is improbable to exist but only in your head simply because your privilege and your (Especially imperialist as regarding the subject matter) entitlement is threatened.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829699That's right, I guess anyone who disagrees with you is automatically labeled a "Troll" as if you have nothing left to back up your bullshit other than "do your research" which is the same catchpraise that conspiracy theorists use which is so identical which isn't funny. Ironically enough, it's people like yourself are uneducated on where that your blindly hated target called "SJW" are coming from and if you want to talk 'research' then it is rather you need to step outside of your gaming and 4Chan/Reddit circles and start educating yourself on the issue but it is unlikely you ever will because you're most likely a privileged white male or suffering from internalization that you're trained not to see oppression around you because it's invisible to you which I know any reply saying otherwise is just exactly what I'm pointing out.

Also I've pretty seen the site demographic already which is what I was calling out including you.

Or otherwise Fuck You.

your a strange strange man.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829704And you think I'm somehow getting payed for this? Get's to show how little you know and how quickly you jump into conclusions....and incredibly paranoid too just like conspiracy theorists who use the "Shill" argument which is also identical too as if you're trying to cast me into some large conspiracy that is not probable to exist but only in your head.

the fact you think he was saying that you were getting paid seems to show paranoia from you

Quote from: Bren;829670Some people are offended that there is just to many Straight White Males.

Fixed that for you.

Quote from: tuypo1;829705your a strange strange man.

Definitely another one for the ignore list.

to be fair he is kind of right but he is overreacting a little

Quote from: tuypo1;829710to be fair he is kind of right but he is overreacting a little

Right about what?

the way i look at this whole situation is its a victory for the social justice warriors but a phyric one

they technically got things changed but it will end up being of far more benefit to the people they hate then it is to them.

Quote from: tuypo1;829715the way i look at this whole situation is its a victory for the social justice warriors but a phyric one

they technically got things changed but it will end up being of far more benefit to the people they hate then it is to them.

Yeah, its definitely a cloud with a silver lining. But then I'm pretty cynical about the "Culture Wars" overall.

Quote from: tuypo1;829715the way i look at this whole situation is its a victory for the social justice warriors but a phyric one

they technically got things changed but it will end up being of far more benefit to the people they hate then it is to them.

I actually disagree, this is a total win for them.  Whether or not the game becomes better for it, not withstanding, that has nothing to do with it.  In fact, most of the Social Justice Whiners, as I like to call them, don't even care enough to play the game, all they see was a target to attack.

They attacked and they got 'the other side' or 'the enemy' to back down.  Boom, done.  That's all they care about.  They got the other side to blink and give in.  That's all that matters to them.

I'm happy that this guy got work, and that people love his stuff, but let's not blind ourselves to the fact that the original offense was barely an anthill that they made into a mountain.  They made up a 'problem' and got others to do something about it.

I repeat, that's all they care about.

oh yeah the social justice warriors think it was a total win but the way monte cook games handled it made the social justice warriors look like even bigger arseholes then usual its going to come back to bite them in the arse eventualy

please let me hold onto this one bit of hope that people will start to realise how insane they are

Quote from: Gwarh;829668It's insulting to Anthony to imply he got hired on his "Nativeness" rather than the Strength of his ideas and writing.

This is forever the other part that bugs the hell out of me. Moreso because its oft so lopsided and selective. No offense to the new writer. But the publishers should have just dropped the native american entry.

You dont like it there? Ok. Now youve ceased to exist.

Quote from: Omega;829743This is forever the other part that bugs the hell out of me. Moreso because its oft so lopsided and selective. No offense to the new writer. But the publishers should have just dropped the native american entry.

You dont like it there? Ok. Now youve ceased to exist.

I disagree.  Don't remove the previous work, but add to the setting as a whole and include new work, and let them stand side by side.

Quote from: Gwarh;829668Sure it's cool to have a Native American Author doing writing about Native America mythology, but in the end so what if he is Native or not. If he writes good stuff that's all that matters. It's insulting to Anthony to imply he got hired on his "Nativeness" rather than the Strength of his ideas and writing.

Unfortunately, that's all he will ever be known for.  Because Monte Cook was 'pressured' into getting a 'native' to get his game 'right'.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;829745I disagree.  Don't remove the previous work, but add to the setting as a whole and include new work, and let them stand side by side.

That would have been an ok option. Still insulting. Like someone hiring me to write an entry in a book about robots - only because someone bitched about an entry about handicapped people - and I am handicapped.

Now if the book was intended to simulate real native american culture and mistakes were found and they called in someone native american to help clean it up. That is a totally different matter. But the book flat out states that it does not simulate anything real.

In retrospect I think the book should have stated the other dimensions were patterned after TV and movie perceptions. Like the two notable Star Trek episodes. There would not have likely been as much a fuss.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829671Disgusted by the majority of the behavior displayed in this thread and also predictable as ever.

Everything is superficial for liberals like 90% of everyone here till the point they're beyond reasoning with and like talking towards a brick wall from my own personal experience.

Or maybe gaming sites like this one are hotbeds for GamerGate which is pretty clear.

Is GamerGate the new NSDAP or KKK ? What the eff it has to do with this discussion ?

By the way, whaterever Zoey Quinn had done, I am actually disgusted by the way she was treated and I am pretty sure this whole thing would have not happened if Zoey was instead Zachary ...

More close to this thread topic, I think it is kind of cool that new people with skills found a paid job. I hope we will read a lot more things from them !

Quote from: yabaziou;829752Is GamerGate the new NSDAP or KKK ? What the eff it have to do with this discussion ?

By the way, whaterever Zoey Quinn had done, I actually disgusted by the way she was treated and I am pretty sure this whole thing would have not happened if Zoey was instead Zachary ...

More close to this thread topic, I hink it is kind of cool that new people with skills found a paid job. I jope we will read a lot more things from them !

yeah im really not sure what gamergate has to do with it. but you are right a lot of the problem was the fact she was female but that was not the activists fault (they did act like massive arseholes though) that was because it gave feminists something to fight.

but come to think of it lately i have seen a lot of people trying to bring gamergate into unrelated discussions.

Quote from: tuypo1;829754yeah im really not sure what gamergate has to do with it. but you are right a lot of the problem was the fact she was female but that was not the activists fault (they did act like massive arseholes though) that was because it gave feminists something to fight.

but come to think of it lately i have seen a lot of people trying to bring gamergate into unrelated discussions.

I am pretty sure that bringing gamergate to any discussion is a new and silly attempt to discredit it.

Honestly, given the amount of money in the video game industry (especially compare to the RPG industry), I think it is fair to have a conversation about journalist ethics.

Quote from: Omega;829751That would have been an ok option. Still insulting. Like someone hiring me to write an entry in a book about robots - only because someone bitched about an entry about handicapped people - and I am handicapped.

Now if the book was intended to simulate real native american culture and mistakes were found and they called in someone native american to help clean it up. That is a totally different matter. But the book flat out states that it does not simulate anything real.

In retrospect I think the book should have stated the other dimensions were patterned after TV and movie perceptions. Like the two notable Star Trek episodes. There would not have likely been as much a fuss.

Perhaps I could be clearer.  If Cook thought that Thunder Plains was fit to print it should stay. If after the bitching and moaning finished, he decided to add another recursion that was more faithful, one should not supersede the other, regardless of the writer.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;829760Perhaps I could be clearer.  If Cook thought that Thunder Plains was fit to print it should stay. If after the bitching and moaning finished, he decided to add another recursion that was more faithful, one should not supersede the other, regardless of the writer.

oh yes very much so.

Quote from: Omega;829743No offense to the new writer. But the publishers should have just dropped the native american entry.

You dont like it there? Ok. Now youve ceased to exist.

This is part of what worries me about precedents like this. We've reached the point where you're not allowed to explore and interpret cultures other than the ones your ancestors were born into. How insanely antithetical to multiculturalism is that!?

What next, a campaign to shut down or rewrite Legend of the Five Rings for its "shamefully" western stable of writers, or are the Japanese excluded from this special protection program?

On the plus side, it means more critiques will be in non-Latin scripts, and thus an opportunity to challenge one's own linguistics skill.

Right? :)

Quote from: yabaziou;828591But I'm somehow worrying that the decent reponse by decent people will prompt not so decent people to made libellous campaigns to change things in RPGs books that unpleased them.

Naw. That could never happen.

Quote from: S'mon;829774Naw. That could never happen.

I know but I can be such a worrywart sometimes ...

Quote from: tuypo1;829754yeah im really not sure what gamergate has to do with it. but you are right a lot of the problem was the fact she was female but that was not the activists fault (they did act like massive arseholes though) that was because it gave feminists something to fight.

but come to think of it lately i have seen a lot of people trying to bring gamergate into unrelated discussions.

Given that game developers, and not just video games but TSR and WoTC and White Wolf have all g, have been getting death threats for the stupidest things in the game.  But it's the current political climate and the internet that makes this a thing.

And the problem I have with this in general (not in context of this, as I don't know if anyone did) is that using a death threat to change something, anything, is using fear to get their way.  And you know who uses fear to get their way?  Terrorists.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;829837And you know who uses fear to get their way?

Of course I do: good generals and efficient militaries, all organized states, the penal system, police, street gangs, organized crime, clans and tribes, religions, employers, the list goes on and on.

You know what else all those organizations have in common...the members all eat food. So do terrorists....oh nos.

Quote from: Opaopajr;829772On the plus side, it means more critiques will be in non-Latin scripts, and thus an opportunity to challenge one's own linguistics skill.

Right? :)

i dont get it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;829837And you know who uses fear to get their way?  Terrorists.

i feel its important that people be reminded of that or they start throwing the word around and using it where it really does not fit

Fuck the SJW shit.

Let's talk more about the Cannibal Bird!!!

Anyone have a favorite post by this author?

Also, anyone used Pacific Northwest Native myths in their games?

Quote from: Spinachcat;829883Fuck the SJW shit.

Let's talk more about the Cannibal Bird!!!

Anyone have a favorite post by this author?

Also, anyone used Pacific Northwest Native myths in their games?

Yeah, and Fuck your Cultural Appropriation thinking you can take and own every culture that doesn't belong to you and turning it into your personal playthings at the expense of the original owners of the culture while you continue on with your own racism not to mention you are more than likely turn around and hypocritically respecting your dominant culture.

Cultural Appropriation are acts of Imperialism and Colonialism that you blindly happen to support and benefit from not to mention you're also privileged due to the fact it's far less likely that your own dominant culture is going to be appropriated in the same way especially without a more than likely major hypocritical uproar.

Quote from: Bren;829842Of course I do: good generals and efficient militaries, all organized states, the penal system, police, street gangs, organized crime, clans and tribes, religions, employers, the list goes on and on.

You know what else all those organizations have in common...the members all eat food. So do terrorists....oh nos.

You missed game publishers and game designers. :banghead:

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829924Yeah, and Fuck your Cultural Appropriation thinking you can take and own every culture that doesn't belong to you and turning it into your personal playthings at the expense of the original owners of the culture while you continue on with your own racism not to mention you are more than likely turn around and hypocritically respecting your dominant culture.

Cultural Appropriation are acts of Imperialism and Colonialism that you blindly happen to support and benefit from.

Drinking and posting rarely go well together.

Quote from: One Horse Town;829934Drinking and posting rarely go well together.

Yeah, more like I was "drunk" with knowledge and education when I posted that.

And you hypocritical allow the person I was quoting saying "Fuck SJW" and somehow don't label that as "drunk posting" which is strange....

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829936Yeah, more like I was "drunk" with knowledge and education when I posted that.

And you hypocritical allow someone saying "Fuck SJW" and somehow don't label that as "drunk posting" which is strange....

It might have something to do with the poster you quoted wanting to talk about the cannibal bird and the content of the guy's blog - which you then go off on a totally unrelated weird rant. You post had fuck-all to do with the post it quoted.

That's why i pointed you out and not him.

You're currently derailing a thread about a native American's blog and his work on Monte Cook's game with unrelated rants at random passers by about cultural appropriation - in a thread about a designer from the culture that is being discussed.

Methinks you doth protest too much.

Quote from: One Horse Town;829938It might have something to do with the poster you quoted wanting to talk about the cannibal bird and the content of the guy's blog - which you then go off on a totally unrelated weird rant. You post had fuck-all to do with the post it quoted.

That's why i pointed you out and not him.

You're currently derailing a thread about a native American's blog and his work on Monte Cook's game with unrelated rants at random passers by about cultural appropriation - in a thread about a designer from the culture that is being discussed.

Methinks you doth protest too much.

I know what this thread is originally about and actually the ones are doing the derailing is people like you and all I did is called it out.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829924Yeah, and Fuck your Cultural Appropriation thinking you can take and own every culture that doesn't belong to you and turning it into your personal playthings at the expense of the original owners of the culture while you continue on with your own racism not to mention you are more than likely turn around and hypocritically respecting your dominant culture.

Honest question: how is this at the expense of these cultures?

For the record, I do agree that some forms of cultural appropriation are at the the very least insensitive and insulting. Some perpetuate often harmful stereotypes. But I don't think that the lives of people on reservations are getting even worse because nerds are talking about games on an internet forum. None of us are going: "haha wow Tibet is a fucked up fantasy world of monsters: I'm gonna post memes and jokes about Tibetans on facebook and twitter now".

There are real-world issues affecting these people. I think that you should spend your anger-fuelled energy on some real-world cause, like a non-profit organization or make donations to some charity, or something. Not type out angry posts on the fucking internet on one of the least-known RPG forums.

Or you're just trolling. In which case, well done: you played me like a fiddle!

Quote from: Necrozius;829945Honest question: how is this at the expense of these cultures?

For the record, I do agree that some forms of cultural appropriation are at the the very least insensitive and insulting. Some perpetuate often harmful stereotypes. But I don't think that the lives of people on reservations are getting even worse because nerds are talking about games on an internet forum. None of us are going: "haha wow Tibet is a fucked up fantasy world of monsters: I'm gonna post memes and jokes about Tibetans on facebook and twitter now".

There are real-world issues affecting these people. I think that you should spend your anger-fuelled energy on some real-world cause, like a non-profit organization or make donations to some charity, or something. Not type out angry posts on the fucking internet on one of the least-known RPG forums.

Or you're just trolling. In which case, well done: you played me like a fiddle!

...You simply don't get do you? Maybe this is exactly what I'm talking about when privileged groups like yourself take everything as superficial and don't go pointing fingers and shifting attention away towards what you call "real issues" when you're actually part of the problem which is simply what I'm pointing out here (at least someone has to) but to be honest, I better things to do than arguing with a bunch of liberals who especially think "charities" will solve everything just to feel better about themselves while turning a blind eye to the actual causes in the first place.

The main question is whether or not "lives are getting worse because of bunch of nerds on a internet forum" but more to do that everyone's actions here is only part of a much larger problem that is persistent in this society that isn't only limited on the internet which is what I was only to trying to point out.

Quote from: yabaziou;829752Is GamerGate the new NSDAP or KKK ? What the eff it has to do with this discussion ?

By the way, whaterever Zoey Quinn had done, I am actually disgusted by the way she was treated and I am pretty sure this whole thing would have not happened if Zoey was instead Zachary ...

More close to this thread topic, I think it is kind of cool that new people with skills found a paid job. I hope we will read a lot more things from them !

Mentioning GamerGate in relationship to this thread is VERY on topic.

The people who are anti-gamergate are the same SJW's who bullied Monty Cook into re-writing the Native American inspired recursion.

GameGate really did start off being about Ethics in Gaming journalism, but then very quickly it became apparent that it was just another front on the Culture War the left has been waging for decades.

Since they've already won their battles in the Legal, Education, and Entertainment realms it has finally trickled down to low hanging fruit like Tabletop RPG's.

GamerGate is about the fight for creators and players to decide for themselves what they want out of their games. What they want to make and perhaps more importantly how they want to play.

GamerGate is pro freedom of speech.
AntiGamerGate is pro censorship.
Gamergate celebrates the rights of the individual
AntiGameGate seeks to use the power of the mob to force their views on others.

It's as simple as that.

EDIT: My apologies for contributing to the derail. I'll just ignore that guy.

For crying out loud, culture is not a finite resource. It's not like oil or uranium, that if you use someone's culture, they can't use it.

The only problem I have is when someone butchers a language in films. You want to talk poor cultural representation? Try watching people talk Polish in American films. The first time I saw Sopranos "Polish" people talking, I was literally baffled. They were talking absolute gibberish.

Keep it to the industry news side of the topic, or it will get moved out of RPGs then closed when people start bringing the stupid.

In light of the last couple of pages, I feel I need to revise my short-sighted and unfair review of Cryptofblood's performance. Here's the new, hopefully fairer version:

This shit is  brilliant. No genuine troll outside of YouTube comments is seriously this fucking retarded with a complete lack of proper punctuation, frequent lack of local text cohesion, brainless repetition of (in this particular case) SJW catchphrases without any relevance to the discussion, utter failure to engage in any sort of two-way exchange and, indeed, a complete failure of reading skills as evidenced by his response to Sine Nomine.

I have to draw the conclusion that what we're seeing here is, in fact, a sort of absolutely brilliant metatrolling, where this person - clearly a sockpuppet for some highly accomplished regular poster - is trolling the trolls themselves by presenting a hilarious parody of them. Excellent, he even had me there for a minute. The only real criticism I can offer is that he's aiming too low by mimicking - and thereby mocking - the lowest, most primitive and retarded of trolls. With a bit more effort, he could just as well spoof the more intelligent, more erudite ones, which would turn his performance into a true classic. I'm proud to award him a revised

Trollscore: 8/10

PS: Just to point out one of his finest touches: "Cryptofblood" strongly rhymes with "Christ's blood", a phrase which, when used frivolously, can be construed to be highly social insensitive and offensive towards Christians. How sublime that our performer pretends to be a socially sensitive, progressive person while having a highly social offensive username!


On a serious and somewhat relevant note:

I love the Straits blog. I'm curious, does anyone know any similar ones that are about Pacific Islander cultures and their use in RPGs?

Quote from: Gwarh;829966Mentioning GamerGate in relationship to this thread is VERY on topic.

The people who are anti-gamergate are the same SJW's who bullied Monty Cook into re-writing the Native American inspired recursion.

GameGate really did start off being about Ethics in Gaming journalism, but then very quickly it became apparent that it was just another front on the Culture War the left has been waging for decades.

Since they've already won their battles in the Legal, Education, and Entertainment realms it has finally trickled down to low hanging fruit like Tabletop RPG's.

GamerGate is about the fight for creators and players to decide for themselves what they want out of their games. What they want to make and perhaps more importantly how they want to play.

GamerGate is pro freedom of speech.
AntiGamerGate is pro censorship.
Gamergate celebrates the rights of the individual
AntiGameGate seeks to use the power of the mob to force their views on others.

It's as simple as that.

This is pure bullshit and everything you said conflicts with reality. GamerGate has nothing to do with "Ethics" but it actually started out as a stalking campaign by a abuser to destroy his girlfriend's reputation and it launched into a full scale witch hunt aim to harass and silence women, PoC, and their supporters in the industry to "restore order" in the white male hegemony.

Also "Anti-GamerGate" only exists in your head, it's simply you vs the world.

It's fascinating to see the psychological effects of blind Religious Fundamentalism applied to secular issues.

Well, combined with the sad and ironic part.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829981This is pure bullshit and everything you said conflicts with reality. GamerGate has nothing to do with "Ethics" but it actually started out as a stalking campaign by a abuser to destroy his girlfriend's reputation and it launched into a full scale witch hunt aim to harass and silence women, PoC, and their supporters in the industry to "restore order" in the white male hegemony.

Also "Anti-GamerGate" only exists in your head, it's simply you vs the world.

Or maybe you're an idiot blinded by ideology.

Now fuck off back to your hugbox, the adults are talking.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;829981This is pure bullshit and everything you said conflicts with reality. GamerGate has nothing to do with "Ethics" but it actually started out as a stalking campaign by a abuser to destroy his girlfriend's reputation and it launched into a full scale witch hunt aim to harass and silence women, PoC, and their supporters in the industry to "restore order" in the white male hegemony.

Also "Anti-GamerGate" only exists in your head, it's simply you vs the world.

You're my favorite poster. Easily.

Quote from: Gwarh;829966Mentioning GamerGate in relationship to this thread is VERY on topic.

The people who are anti-gamergate are the same SJW's who bullied Monty Cook into re-writing the Native American inspired recursion.

GameGate really did start off being about Ethics in Gaming journalism, but then very quickly it became apparent that it was just another front on the Culture War the left has been waging for decades.

Since they've already won their battles in the Legal, Education, and Entertainment realms it has finally trickled down to low hanging fruit like Tabletop RPG's.

GamerGate is about the fight for creators and players to decide for themselves what they want out of their games. What they want to make and perhaps more importantly how they want to play.

GamerGate is pro freedom of speech.
AntiGamerGate is pro censorship.
Gamergate celebrates the rights of the individual
AntiGameGate seeks to use the power of the mob to force their views on others.

It's as simple as that.

Still very unconvinced of the relevance of GamerGate is this topic.

I also agree with Rincewind on this : "For crying out loud, culture is not a finite resource. It's not like oil or uranium, that if you use someone's culture, they can't use it."

What happens here ? Bruce Cordell wrote a book featuring 3 pages (out of 400+) with a fictional/totally not real setting inspored by his visions of Native American people. MCG (owned by Monte Cook and Shanna Germain) released it.

People were upset by the white male vision of Native american culture (which is their right) and asked it to be removed (also a fair call). MCG asked to meet them, things get ugly, social media were blocked, an online petition was started calling Cook, Cordell and Germain genocide profiteers (which is deeply uncool and false). MCG asked people's advice, made some posts on social media, and decided that Cordell's vision had to go and hired two talented people who happens to be native americans to do the job.

That is a story with a rather nice ending. Nothing to do with gamergate. Mentionning it is just a derailing attempt. And wild claims about people participing in doxx and others terrible behaviors associated with gamergate kinda suck.

I'm starting to realize that this forum is a waste of time and also ironically only proving me right in the end.

Quote from: Premier;829979I love the Straits blog. I'm curious, does anyone know any similar ones that are about Pacific Islander cultures and their use in RPGs?

I've been looking, because I've been working on a campaign setting that includes peoples inspired by Pacific Islander cultures (but in a fantasy archipelago world). It's been difficult because a lot of the "real" language, myths and even names have been lost thanks to aggressive colonialism.

It's been awhile since I last checked, but the number of people who still fluently speak actual Haida is pretty small. (source: http://www.haidalanguage.org/).

Anyhow, if anyone has found anything good for Polynesia, Papua New Guinea, Maori or any others, lemme know!

Looks like i'm going to have to step in.

No talk about gamergate please.

As the guy referenced in the OP has actually posted to the thread, can we do him the honour of not shitting the fucking thread up with any old crap you think sounds cools, either for or against social justice issues?

Quote from: Premier;829979In light of the last couple of pages, I feel I need to revise my short-sighted and unfair review of Cryptofblood's performance. Here's the new, hopefully fairer version:

While I agree your first guess is wrong, so is this guess. What we have in Cryptofblood is a chatterbot designed as a senior class project by a group of avowedly Christian undergraduates at Cornell to pass a Turing test.

• Crypto as in cryptology is a clue that Cryptofbloods' name and words are not to be taken at their plain text meaning. The real meaning or nature of Cryptofblood have been concealed.

• Since cryptography is all done with computers now this is a clue to Cryptofbloods' true nature -- a machine -- not a man.

• If we assign numbers to the letters in the name, "Crypt of blood" using the usual simple encryption of A=1, B=2, etc. we get the following.

c-r-y-p-t-o-f-b-l-o-o-d
3-18-25-16-20-15-6-2-12-15-15-4

• If we, as in typical numerology, sum those numbers we get 151, which when again summed is 7 the mystical number associated with man, e.g. the seven chakras, the seven openings in a human head, etc.

• If we then decrypt 151 back to letters we get AEA, the name of the city in Colchis that was the home of Golden Fleece. Clearly cryptofblood is a clue that hides the object of a great quest, i.e. a program that can pass the Turing Test.

• If instead we look at the numerology of each word in crypt of blood we get 82-21-48 which when again summed gives us 10-3-12. This corresponds to JCL, clearly an acronym for Jesus Christ Lives. Which, like the Christ's Blood vernacular reference that Premier mentioned, clearly shows us that the Turing Test Program Cryptofblood was created by a group of Christian students.

• Also if we take the numbers by word 10-3-12 and resum them we get 25 which corresponds to the letter Y. Which is the first letter in Yahweh and in Yesus, both alternate words for god the father or god the son. Further evidence for the encryption of Christian symbology in this program.

• If instead we resum 25 that gives us lucky number 7. Undoubtably their were 7 undergraduates in the team that built Cryptofblood.

By now all the rational members on this forum have been convinced by the overwhelming weight of evidence and you crazy people can never be convinced by the facts so l don't think I need to provide additional proof - although let me assure you there is much more evidence present, we haven't even looked at a textual analysis nor a comparison to Biblical verses, still even without all that I think we can all see where this is leading....

Quote from: Bren;829995While I agree your first guess is wrong, so is this guess. What we have in Cryptofblood is a chatterbot designed as a senior class project by a group of avowedly Christian undergraduates at Cornell to pass a Turing test.

• Crypto as in cryptology is a clue that Cryptofbloods' name and words are not to be taken at their plain text meaning. The real meaning or nature of Cryptofblood have been concealed.

• Since cryptography is all done with computers now this is a clue to Cryptofbloods' true nature -- a machine -- not a man.

• If we assign numbers to the letters in the name, "Crypt of blood" using the usual simple encryption of A=1, B=2, etc. we get the following.

c-r-y-p-t-o-f-b-l-o-o-d
3-18-25-16-20-15-6-2-12-15-15-4

• If we, as in typical numerology, sum those numbers we get 151, which when again summed is 7 the mystical number associated with man, e.g. the seven chakras, the seven openings in a human head, etc.

• If we then decrypt 151 back to letters we get AEA, the name of the city in Colchis that was the home of Golden Fleece. Clearly cryptofblood is a clue that hides the object of a great quest, i.e. a program that can pass the Turing Test.

• If instead we look at the numerology of each word in crypt of blood we get 82-21-48 which when again summed gives us 10-3-12. This corresponds to JCL, clearly an acronym for Jesus Christ Lives. Which, like the Christ's Blood vernacular reference that Premier mentioned, clearly shows us that the Turing Test Program Cryptofblood was created by a group of Christian students.

• Also if we take the numbers by word 10-3-12 and resum them we get 25 which corresponds to the letter Y. Which is the first letter in Yahweh and in Yesus, both alternate words for god the father or god the son. Further evidence for the encryption of Christian symbology in this program.

• If instead we resum 25 that gives us lucky number 7. Undoubtably their were 7 undergraduates in the team that built Cryptofblood.

By now all the rational members on this forum have been convinced by the overwhelming weight of evidence and you crazy people can never be convinced by the facts so l don't think I need to provide additional proof - although let me assure you there is much more evidence present, we haven't even looked at a textual analysis nor a comparison to Biblical verses, still even without all that I think we can all see where this is leading....

Mind Blown!

At the end of the day the facts are that
Cook caved in to the SJWs or whatever the hell they really were.
Cook then found a darn interesting NA writer to do the replacement entry for this pathetic storm in a teacup.

It was not the right course. But it was probably the best they could do under the circumstances.

We will see where this goes from here.

Quote from: Necrozius;829990I've been looking, because I've been working on a campaign setting that includes peoples inspired by Pacific Islander cultures (but in a fantasy archipelago world). It's been difficult because a lot of the "real" language, myths and even names have been lost thanks to aggressive colonialism.

It's been awhile since I last checked, but the number of people who still fluently speak actual Haida is pretty small. (source: http://www.haidalanguage.org/).

Anyhow, if anyone has found anything good for Polynesia, Papua New Guinea, Maori or any others, lemme know!

Since OHT has a very good point...

I don't know what's been written for the Strange so far as recursions other than the main three are concerned, but I believe MCGs put out a Worlds book that might have something in it.  If not, I believe the lisence that Cook attached allows for us to write and publish our own stuff for it, which I would totally do if I wasn't such a shit writer. :p

Dearest Cryptofblood, I hope Premier is wrong about you being a masterful metatroll, but if so kudos on your performance art. Sockpuppets are truly the second best puppets. But if Bren is correct that you're a designed chatterbot, that would be kinda cool as I will always have far more respect for random lines of code than an actual SJW.

But please keep babbling your Cultural Appropriation idiocy because Free Speech is extremely important. While I think your words are chock full of dumb, I absolutely support your right to mumble dick your way through your SJW life and elucidate us all on the truth only you can know.

Sadly, nobody seems to want to talk about the coolness on this dude Anthony's blog and this thread has crapped out.

Hail Mary ...

Quote from: Spinachcat;829883Let's talk more about the Cannibal Bird!!!

Anyone have a favorite post by this author?

I've skimmed through the blog, dipping my toe here and there. It's not a huge blog with only six posts, but most of them are very meaty and show an amazing creativity. I'd love to see more, but each of those posts must take awhile to pull together.

Children of the Sea has caught my interest, with its Sea Born, which I could see using as either PCs or NPCs. Just for kicks, I rolled up some Blessings of the Sea for a hypothetical character: 3, 3:3, 6:12, 6:17. This gives me three Blessings, 1) Three cephalopod arms (I'm going to say two arms, one leg) with a +3 bonus to grappling, 2) "Your power ebbs and flows like the tide. During a full moon, you are considered 2 caster levels higher for all spells. During a new moon, you are 2 caster levels lower.", and 3) "Blood foams in air. Any attack dealing you 6 or more damage sprays a cloud of bloody mist in a 10 foot radius, obscuring sight for a round." Fuckin' A!

If I had to pick one favourite, though, it'd be We Are Eaten Forever, with its cannibal birds, its The Dance of the Cannibal Wind warrior society, its Wechuge ("Old Iron-Teeth is grandfather to wolves. The possessed shove bits of iron or other metals into their mouth and under their fingernails where they root in place as grotesque armament." Wow!), and its 16' tall Windigos.

I could see using everything here as-is in my AS&SH campaign. I could see including much of it, with modifications, in my Glorantha campaign.

I think it'd be cool if Anthony, given the fresh exposure he'll get from this MCG gig, were to pull together an entire old-school supplement full of things like this. Given the amount of work involved, I'll just leave it at "it'd be cool" and not push more than that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;829883Also, anyone used Pacific Northwest Native myths in their games?

Not yet, but I will. The material on this blog is so directly useful, which I suppose is the highest praise you can give gaming material.

Remember when gaming was about getting together and having fun?

I do.

I miss those days.

As for the Am I ever going to use anything remotely Native America (that's North, Central or South), nope.  It's a freakin' minefield, where bullies rule the playground.  Don't want any of that, thanks.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;830207Remember when gaming was about getting together and having fun?

I do.

I miss those days.

As for the Am I ever going to use anything remotely Native America (that's North, Central or South), nope.  It's a freakin' minefield, where bullies rule the playground.  Don't want any of that, thanks.

And when enough take this route then the industry will be guilty of Erasure.

Quote from: Nexus;830221And when enough take this route then the industry will be guilty of Erasure.

In the end, it will be damned if you do and damned if you don't ...

But as OHT had pointed out, the author spoken of in the OP has posted in the thread, so I have some questions for him if he don't mind it and is at liberty to speak of it.

Can he introduced himself ? (I assume that Anthony is a him)

How MCG had contacted him ?

Has he any thought to share on this controversy ?

Could he speak about his plans for the Thunder Plains ?

Quote from: Nexus;830221And when enough take this route then the industry will be guilty of Erasure.

From what I gather, an author can get a pass if they have proof that they put in effort to do research interviews with real people and if they are ready and willing to apologize profusely if they got anything wrong. Overall, I guess that it's a very good thing to keep cool in the face of very angry criticism and ad hominem attacks.

I wish I had a place for Pacific Northwest stuff now. Sadly it doesn't fit too well with 1624 France.

Maybe when we go back to Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: Nexus;830221And when enough take this route then the industry will be guilty of Erasure.

When we have no other viable options but to give in to the demands. Erasure is the only option left. If you keep presenting your faction as unreasoning fanatics then eventually its going to become practice to exclude that faction because its too much trouble.

Which drives me totally up the wall.

Semi-recent example was a TV series that was announced one of the characters was going to be hearing impaired. SJWs bitched incessantly that it wasnt a real handicapped person playing the role and the network finally just made the character normal. So instead of having a presence on screen. They bitched us out of existence. Gee. Thanks alot.

This happens fairly often.

Quote from: Omega;830269SJWs bitched incessantly that it wasnt a real handicapped person playing the role

(http://www.catster.com/files/post_images/4c997e8289282926a59582d6d00cf721.jpg)


I'd like to call them morons, but that might insult morons.

Finding something inspirational for GMs that's concretely useful seems so rare to me, like kicking a gold nugget in the dust. Anthony's blog is a big enough gold nugget that it'll break your toe.  Very, very cool.

And as it was pointed out elsewhere, this clearly is a limited resource, so I'm just going to have to collapse the mine on the rest of you so that you can't take it from me.

Quote from: Bren;830239I wish I had a place for Pacific Northwest stuff now. Sadly it doesn't fit too well with 1624 France.

Maybe when we go back to Call of Cthulhu.

My thoughts exactly. I've read through his blog and I really love Anthony's ideas on some rule options which I can reskin to my OD&D needs, but the mythic bits from the PNW will definitely be ported over to CoC where the juxtaposition with modern day would be great fun.

Too bad the Pacific Northwest Natives won't have any culture left after Bren and I use it all up running our CoC games....the rest of you must now mourn yet another culture up in smoke.

Quote from: Omega;830269When we have no other viable options but to give in to the demands. Erasure is the only option left.

Exactly,  its a game that can't won.

Quote from: Rincewind1;829975For crying out loud, culture is not a finite resource. It's not like oil or uranium, that if you use someone's culture, they can't use it.

The only problem I have is when someone butchers a language in films. You want to talk poor cultural representation? Try watching people talk Polish in American films. The first time I saw Sopranos "Polish" people talking, I was literally baffled. They were talking absolute gibberish.

There's way more spanish speaking hispanics in the U.S. than there are Polish-speaking Poles, and yet Hollywood still, in 2015, frequently has some actor (including many hispanic actors) who can't actually speak spanish, mangle some terrible spanish lines and just assumes no one will notice.

Quote from: Brad;830274(http://www.catster.com/files/post_images/4c997e8289282926a59582d6d00cf721.jpg)

Also, this cat looks almost exactly like one of my two cats.

Quote from: Spinachcat;830057Dearest Cryptofblood, I hope Premier is wrong about you being a masterful metatroll, but if so kudos on your performance art. Sockpuppets are truly the second best puppets. But if Bren is correct that you're a designed chatterbot, that would be kinda cool as I will always have far more respect for random lines of code than an actual SJW.

But please keep babbling your Cultural Appropriation idiocy because Free Speech is extremely important. While I think your words are chock full of dumb, I absolutely support your right to mumble dick your way through your SJW life and elucidate us all on the truth only you can know.

Sadly, nobody seems to want to talk about the coolness on this dude Anthony's blog and this thread has crapped out.

If you think your excuse for cultural appropriation is "Freedom of Speech" then you're seriously deluded, since for one example White Supremacists also defend their Hate Speeches as "Freedom of Speech" as well which doesn't make the situation any different here. It only get's to show that "Freedom" is a subjective concept that any group can define it for their own purposes at any given contexts. Plus more importantly I'm not (nor anyone doing the revision for the game) a governmental body (or some large conspiracy) out to 'censor' anything, it's simply called for developers to be more aware how to approach other cultures without appropriating without their permission or otherwise, what you call "Freedom of Speech" is actually only engaging long practices of imperialism.

Also calling anyone who disagrees with you "trolls" or "sockpuppets" is just something you like label to feel comfortable with yourself to appear 'smarter' than you actually are or rather you just rather retort to personal attacks and ad hominem if you choose not to listen.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;831345...it's simply called for developers to be more aware how to approach other cultures without appropriating without their permission..

How does a designer go about getting a culture's permission to appropriate something?

Seriously, I have no idea how one would even approach doing that. Are there cultures that actually anoint designated cultural-appropriation-permission-grantors or does the culture somehow vote on it and if it is a vote is a simple majority good enough or does one need a super majority of two-thirds or what? And how does a culture vote anyway?

Quote from: Bren;831351How does a designer go about getting a culture's permission to appropriate something?

Seriously, I have no idea how one would even approach doing that. Are there cultures that actually anoint designated cultural-appropriation-permission-grantors or does the culture somehow vote on it and if it is a vote is a simple majority good enough or does one need a super majority of two-thirds or what? And how does a culture vote anyway?

Actually the main problem would be solved if there's more diversity in the gaming industry rather than being full of white (especially male) people especially the presence of a dominant culture weighing all the others which is actually the main problem.

That's what I'm getting at which you maybe overlooking the obvious elephant in the room while you take everything by face value.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;831414Actually the main problem would be solved if there's more diversity in the gaming industry rather than being full of white (especially male) people which is actually the main problem.

That's what I'm getting at which you maybe overlooking the whole time.

More diversity in the gaining industry doesn't answer my question or resolve the problem you posed with gaming permission.

How does a game designer get permission from a culture to appropriate elements of that culture?

Quote from: Bren;831416More diversity in the gaining industry doesn't answer my question or resolve the problem you posed with gaming permission.

How does a game designer get permission from a culture to appropriate elements of that culture?

I've already answered your question and you've apparently ignored it, I guess there is no further discussion here if I'm talking towards a brick wall.

It's simply has to do that you're not entitled to take everything as if you own it at the expense of the original owners since you never cared enough to ask permission for it.

Infact let's look at appropriation shall we?

Quoteap·pro·pri·a·tion
əˌprōprēˈāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: appropriation; plural noun: appropriations

    1.
    the action of taking something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission.
    "the appropriation of parish funds"
        derogatory
        the artistic practice or technique of reworking images from well-known paintings, photographs, etc., in one's own work.
    2.
    a sum of money or total of assets devoted to a special purpose.

Now apply it to a entire dominate culture taking another culture that never originally belonged to us without their permission for our own use at their expense which is what cultural appropriation is. It's essentially another form of theft done in a major cultural scale.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;831419I've already answered your question and you've apparently ignored it, I guess there is no further discussion here if I'm talking towards a brick wall.

You didn't answer it. You ignored it. That seems to be your usual modus operandi.

Either that or you were never interested in an actual discussion it was a trick question and by getting permission you really meant, "HA, HA, HA white men can't get permission. EVAH! Because of colonialism, and patriarchy. Suckers!"

Quote from: Bren;831416More diversity in the gaining industry doesn't answer my question or resolve the problem you posed with gaming permission.

How does a game designer get permission from a culture to appropriate elements of that culture?

It's a nice little Catch-22. You can't use it if you aren't given permission, but there's no channel to ask, no authority to dispense permission, and no seal of approval to affix to to the product.

"All red level troubleshooters please report immediately to the nearest termination booth. Failure to comply is treason and punishable by immediate termination."

Feeding the trolls, are we?

/summon Old Geezer's Peehole...

Go on, Crypt. You know what to do.

Quote from: Bren;831457You didn't answer it. You ignored it. That seems to be your usual modus operandi.

Either that or you were never interested in an actual discussion it was a trick question and by getting permission you really meant, "HA, HA, HA white men can't get permission. EVAH! Because of colonialism, and patriarchy. Suckers!"

*starts pounding head against desk*

Stop feeding the goddamn troll, Bren. You know better than that. This one hasn't had an original thought since it arrived.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;831489*starts pounding head against desk*

Stop feeding the goddamn troll, Bren. You know better than that. This one hasn't had an original thought since it arrived.

Sorry. Cryptoblood's comment was just so idiotically, unthinkingly, moronic that I had to respond because some dipshit was wrong on the internet. Mea culpa. I should know better than to respond to the chatterbot trollkin.

Quote from: Bren;831499Sorry. Cryptoblood's comment was just so idiotically, unthinkingly, moronic that I had to respond because some dipshit was wrong on the internet. Mea culpa. I should know better than to respond to the chatterbot trollkin.

Hey, I admire a good troll myself, but if you don't feed it, it'll eventually fuck off to whence it came.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;831501Hey, I admire a good troll myself, but if you don't feed it, it'll eventually fuck off to whence it came.

Somewhere a bridge stands alone, somewhere a village is wondering what happened to their idiot.

On the topic of cultural appropriation without going into any one poster -

To my mind, the main problem is when mainstream mass-media portrayals of someone's culture drown out the portrayals by members of the culture. Like, for example, having the mass of Americans know Lakota culture through Dances With Wolves rather than through works by Lakota authors. Or when Indian-themed New-Age trinkets made in Singapore are outselling work by native craftsmen.

I'm working on a game scenario right now about Voodoo, so it's been on my mind.

I don't think one needs permission per se, but I definitely try to look for portrayals by people of a culture rather than by outsiders.

Quote from: jhkim;831521On the topic of cultural appropriation without going into any one poster -

To my mind, the main problem is when mainstream mass-media portrayals of someone's culture drown out the portrayals by members of the culture. Like, for example, having the mass of Americans know Lakota culture through Dances With Wolves rather than through works by Lakota authors. Or when Indian-themed New-Age trinkets made in Singapore are outselling work by native craftsmen.

I'm working on a game scenario right now about Voodoo, so it's been on my mind.

I don't think one needs permission per se, but I definitely try to look for portrayals by people of a culture rather than by outsiders.

So recommend me some Lakota authors then.

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm sewing my Cultural Representative Notary Public costumes and designing my Seals of Approval as we speak. I will graciously accept only 15% of the proceeds, per (sub-)culture I represent. Any use of Latin script, electricity, or computing at any point during said creation is a nominal additional 2% per facet, until Jan 2016, as a new customer discount.

Anyone needs their forum post sanctioned for approval? I charge reasonable rates. I also wear many cultural hats (Heinz 57 American, baby!) — and they'll have details like felt stars and pompoms dangling from the trim.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;831526So recommend me some Lakota authors then.

Kevin Costner.  The Lakota made him an honorary member in response to his horrific act of whitewashing and cultural appropriation called Dances with Wolves.  Poor infantile brainwashed children.  If only they had a young, affluent, overeducated, underemployed white guy wearing sackcloth and ashes to fulfill his noblesse oblige and set them straight as to how Lakota should think and feel.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;831526So recommend me some Lakota authors then.

Assuming we're talking exclusively about RPGables in mythology & traditional culture, these are all lakota or dakota:

Myths from either Luther Standing Bear or Zitkala-Ša would be easiest to get, but their language is super dated. Content is decent, but I cringe at some aspects of the presentation. I suspect both could be easily found online for free.

Black Elk is better (his descriptions are vivid, and he gives things very D&D names like "the Soldier Weed of Destruction", etc.) but Black Elk Speaks has editor Neihardt and a sort of prefigured New Age agenda all over it. Unedited transcripts are better in that regard but may lose out in others.

On the anthro side of things there's Ella Cara Deloria, if interested in somewhat drier reading.

Note also that all of these are pretty old. The more modern sources I'm familiar with focus on more modern issues.

Quote from: antion;831571Assuming we're talking exclusively about RPGables in mythology & traditional culture, these are all lakota or dakota:

Myths from either Luther Standing Bear or Zitkala-Ša would be easiest to get, but their language is super dated. Content is decent, but I cringe at some aspects of the presentation. I suspect both could be easily found online for free.

Black Elk is better (his descriptions are vivid, and he gives things very D&D names like "the Soldier Weed of Destruction", etc.) but Black Elk Speaks has editor Neihardt and a sort of prefigured New Age agenda all over it. Unedited transcripts are better in that regard but may lose out in others.

On the anthro side of things there's Ella Cara Deloria, if interested in somewhat drier reading.

Note also that all of these are pretty old. The more modern sources I'm familiar with focus on more modern issues.

Thank you.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;831526So recommend me some Lakota authors then.

Lakota Woman, a memoir by Mary Crow Dog (now named Mary Brave Bird). Also inspired the TNT movie Lakota Woman: Siege at Wounded Knee, starring Jane Fonda.

I read the book for my Native American Woman Studies class. It was a lot of fun (especially since there's moments of happiness instead of the seemingly unending sadness in my NA material). Interesting view of the '60s, and much needed primary source for the development of AIM, Alcatraz, & Wounded Knee siege.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;831526So recommend me some Lakota authors then.

Index of Native American authors by tribe at the Internet Public Library. (http://www.ipl.org/div/natam/bin/browse.pl/tribes#C)

Quote from: CRKrueger;831680Index of Native American authors by tribe at the Internet Public Library. (http://www.ipl.org/div/natam/bin/browse.pl/tribes#C)

This is an AMAZING resource. Thank you, thank you thank you!

Admittedly i'm not coming at this strictly from a Native American standpoint, but does anyone have any sources about spirit quests?

Quote from: Cryptofblood;831345If you think your excuse for cultural appropriation is "Freedom of Speech" then you're seriously deluded, since for one example White Supremacists also defend their Hate Speeches as "Freedom of Speech" as well which doesn't make the situation any different here.

Everyone should 100% support the Freedom of Speech for every racial supremacist from every ethnic group on the planet. "Hate Speech" is a bullshit term in a moronic attempt at censorship. Censorship never achieves anything positive.

If you do not support the right for your foes to speak freely and loudly and publicly, you don't deserve the right for your side to voice its opinions either, regardless how "right" you believe your side's opinion may be at this moment in time.

It means absolutely nothing to protect words you like.

Quote from: One Horse Town;831794Admittedly i'm not coming at this strictly from a Native American standpoint, but does anyone have any sources about spirit quests?

Not exactly real world based, but Glorantha does a lot of that. You might find something in any of the versions of Runequest or in some of the HeroQuest information on Glorantha.

Quote from: One Horse Town;831794Admittedly i'm not coming at this strictly from a Native American standpoint, but does anyone have any sources about spirit quests?

Yeah I'd agree that Stafford / Glorantha is gonna be most about that for gaming.

For just general stuff about vision experiences though the previously mentioned Black Elk Speaks has detailed descriptions of several visions. Below is a fairly representative piece from the "dog vision". Pretty heavy with Lakota symbols, but even without that layer it'll get you a good bit beyond "an animal showed up and we became ghost-friends forever" hokeyness.

Quote from: Black ElkAnd as I stood there looking, a vision broke out of the shouting blackness torn with fire, and I saw the two men who had come to me first in my great vision. They came head first like arrows slanting earthward from the long flight; and when they neared the ground, I could see a dust rising there and out of the dust the heads of dogs were peeping. Then suddenly I saw that the dust was the swarm of many-colored butterflies hovering all around and over the dogs.

By now the two men were riding sorrel horses, streaked with black lightning, and they charged with bows and arrows down upon the dogs, while the thunder beings cheered for them with roaring voices.

Then suddenly the butterflies changed, and were storm-driven swallows, swooping and whirling in a great cloud behind the charging riders.

The first of these now plunged upon a dog's head and arose with it hanging bloody on his arrow point, while the whole west roared with cheering. The second did the same; and the black west flashed and cheered again. Then as the two arose together, I saw that the dogs' heads had changed to the heads of Wasichus; and as I saw, the vision went out and the storm was close upon me, terrible to see and roaring.

Thanks!

I'm actively trying to avoid looking at anything Runequest while i do this, though, for gaming reference. I was thinking more along real life experiences, so thanks for the Black Elk link.

Quote from: Spinachcat;831800*Protects Hate Speech*

You just now reached a new low and pretty much shown your true colors here which you rather be accompanied by and be complicit to white supremacists rather than calling them out which somehow you label that as "censorship".

Then again Free Speech for whom I wonder? Also flagged for ableist language like "moronic".

Free speech does not grant immunity from criticisms.  Just because you say one thing, does not mean someone else cannot take a look at it and disagree.

And that's the final thing I will say on that.

Quote from: fellowhoodlum;828602Our group recently began a Primeval Thule campaign, so all these mythic Pacific Northwest ideas would certainly add more flavour to the setting...

It certainly is a fantastic area. As I sit here writing, I'm looking out the window on a sea of green leaves and pines and soaking up the Spring. It's quite nice, and I've often set my games up here. The area has a rich Native history and so I'm definitely interested in what this creator has to offer!

Quote from: Cryptofblood;832060Also flagged for ableist language like "moronic".

Ok, gotta be a troll, too hilarious to be anything else, or god I sure hope so.

Since we've already been told once to keep the politics out of this thread, can we get some more policing here, without closing this, the actual thread is starting to get interesting.

Quote from: One Horse Town;831794Admittedly i'm not coming at this strictly from a Native American standpoint, but does anyone have any sources about spirit quests?

I recently run a Pathfinder (the 1987 film) inspired game and while searching for info about Sami shamanism found this:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/siida/religion/paralellism.htm (http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/siida/religion/paralellism.htm)

I hope you find it useful, specially the Sami bear ritual and the comparison with Sioux traditions. Also, the bibliography.

Quote from: CRKrueger;832091Since we've already been told once to keep the politics out of this thread, can we get some more policing here,

He must be allowed to speak on the off chance that he's not just trolling for lulz, if only to show that when we talk about freedom of critical discourse we mean it.

Just ignore him if you don't like him, he's just a block of text between more useful and reasonable blocks of text, like a banner ad on ENworld.

Quote from: One Horse Town;831794Admittedly i'm not coming at this strictly from a Native American standpoint, but does anyone have any sources about spirit quests?

Have you read Aleister Crowley's "The Vision and the Voice"?

That's the western-magick equivalent of a spirit-quest.

This is out now and is a free download.

http://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/ohunkakan-the-living-myths/

I'm really torn. The book and setting sound very cool but the circumstances that brought it about really chaps my ass as does the idea that its needed to "replace" the original Thunder Plains.

Quote from: Nexus;838343I'm really torn. The book and setting sound very cool but the circumstances that brought it about really chaps my ass as does the idea that its needed to "replace" the original Thunder Plains.

I grabbed it because it was free but haven't had a chance to read it yet. And while it's probably a good setting, the only reason I got it was because it was free. The whole mess behind its creation left a bad taste in my mouth.

The Thunder Plains won't be going anywhere if I ever run a game of The Strange, although I'd have to run it in a different system since I have at least one player who would never go for the Cypher system. She hates only using a single die.

So is it actually good? Is it better than what it replaces?

It would pretty much have to be an improvement. Its an entire supplement replaces a few sentences (which makes all the outrage even more ridiculous). But I hope to get a chance to give it a good look in a few days.

I'd assume its an improvement in a sense over the Thunder Plain in a sense since its an entire supplement to replace a few sentences (which makes all the outrage even more ridiculous). And it sounds like something almost completely different so a direct comparison might not be fair.  But I hope to get a chance to give it a good look in a few days. I like that the nature of setting means it doesn't have replace the original unless you want it too and can coexist with it as I think both have allot of potential. You can have your cake and eat it too.

I'm waiting for all the white sjws to tell the Native American author what he got wrong/offensive/whatever.

Quote from: CRKrueger;838684I'm waiting for all the white sjws to tell the Native American author what he got wrong/offensive/whatever.

I'm guessing you won't have to wait long.

Quote from: RPGPundit;839005I'm guessing you won't have to wait long.

I'll be really surprised if it he does.

Got it, read it, liked it. Currently reading several books on Native American Mythology. The real magic of this 6 page work is in stuff like its first page, making note of the living nature of stories and their occasional anachronistic blending, with great game-able descriptions. The items and monster toward the last two pages are also good gaming fodder.

The middle touches base with the solid basics one needs to know of NA myth (predominantly Plains), the primary stories of Coyote, Spider-weaver, Great Bear, Thunderbird, Water Serpent, etc. But they are couched in that the narrative story, the act of storytelling skill within the game, is a force of creation. As long as the story breathes, and follows its (or its mythical teller's) own story logic, it makes its own reality, its own sense. Thus mythic beings become personal, visitable, and through their patterns, allows heroics of one's own.

The Strange, the game, without having read it seems very reminiscent of games that deal with the Ethereal, fairy tales and myth, and/or dreamscapes. Could be a lot of fun if the mechanics can get out of the way. As an expanding chapter it paints a "'mythopological' world" (my collegiate-speak babble :p), a melange of breathing anachronisms and narrative force, upon the North American Great Plains in 6 short pages.

The writing's good. Could make a nice sourcebook and adventure series.

Yeah, I'm surprised there is no thread about Ohunkakan over at Lorraine Williams' Office/TBP. The one bitching about Thunder Plains was closed months ago.

I wasn't a big fan of what went down, but I like the replacement recursion. For the most part, I think one could run the same adventures planned for Thunder Plains in Ohunkakan. I'm not sure what happens with The Strange Bestiary in any future reprints though. Three critters specifically mention Thunder Plains, and of those the Wendigo has some background information that might not sync up well with the recursion. Or it might, I'm no expert on Native American mythology.

I finally made it to the adult swim. Hi, everyone!

Welcome Paraguybrarian!

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;839209Three critters specifically mention Thunder Plains, and of those the Wendigo has some background information that might not sync up well with the recursion. Or it might, I'm no expert on Native American mythology.

Wendigo is part of the Algonquin legends. The Algonquin are based mostly in the Canada region, but they were along the east cost and we had an agrarian tribe in the Ohio region.

Cheyenne & Arapaho also US Plains-region & Algonquian-speaking.

But as you move away from regions with deep fear of survival cannibalism the word "wendigo" more likely to retain its older meaning, "owl". Which juxtaposition could serve the basis for a whole other monster, or a way to adapt it to a local context if that were desired - definitely something I've drawn on before.

Cree wihtikow - cannibal
Ojibwa wintiko - cannibal
Fox witekowa - owl
Kickapoo iitekoa - owl
Illinois menti8o - owl
Miami mindikwamasia - owl

Ohunkakan presents a humanoid man-eater though in the Double Face (which figure also changes a bit as you slide around the map).

Or use both - Ravenous put wendigos in California-or-was-it-Slovakia, and I love that movie.

Quote from: antion;839271Cheyenne & Arapaho also US Plains-region & Algonquian-speaking.

But as you move away from regions with deep fear of survival cannibalism the word "wendigo" more likely to retain its older meaning, "owl". Which juxtaposition could serve the basis for a whole other monster, or a way to adapt it to a local context if that were desired - definitely something I've drawn on before.

Cree wihtikow - cannibal
Ojibwa wintiko - cannibal
Fox witekowa - owl
Kickapoo iitekoa - owl
Illinois menti8o - owl
Miami mindikwamasia - owl

Ohunkakan presents a humanoid man-eater though in the Double Face (which figure also changes a bit as you slide around the map).

Or use both - Ravenous put wendigos in California-or-was-it-Slovakia, and I love that movie.

That's some fascinating etymology.  And news to me.  Very cool!

Is he going to do a Pacific Northwest adventure / supplement for the Strange?

I'm not a Monty Cook fan, but I might pick that up.

Better yet, I'd love to see him do something for CoC!

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;839209I finally made it to the adult swim. Hi, everyone!

Allow me to welcome you with the traditional theRPGsite greeting: Fuck you! :)

Also, your favorite game sucks and if that game is my favorite game, you are clearly playing it wrong!

New brains are always welcome! Brains!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;839709Is he going to do a Pacific Northwest adventure / supplement for the Strange?

No plans for anything of that sort known to me. It is possible though I would do something similar independently at some point, likely with OSR stylings (mostly use S&W at home).

Quote from: Spinachcat;839709Allow me to welcome you with the traditional theRPGsite greeting: Fuck you! :)

Also, your favorite game sucks and if that game is my favorite game, you are clearly playing it wrong!

New brains are always welcome! Brains!!!

Now that's the kind of greeting I can appreciate. :)

Most of the keyboard warriors at that other place thought my favorite game sucked, too, but I kept trying to explain to them that Nibovian Wives do more than suck. Surprisingly, I'm not just here because of that.

Yeah, welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: antion;839903No plans for anything of that sort known to me. It is possible though I would do something similar independently at some point, likely with OSR stylings (mostly use S&W at home).

You goddamn better!

Quote from: Planet Algol;840376You goddamn better!

It's theRPGSite's equivalent of "Please? That would be really awesome of you if you did so."

3 months ago:

Quote from: Zak S;828571So y'know what'll happen? All the people who took advantage of the original situation with The Strange to post little "How I Would've Handle This So Much Better" posts and messages about how great and inclusive they are will have nothing to be outraged about and will probably, therefore, post nothing at all about this.

...so, following a depressing pattern, people who claim to be extremely exercised about minority representation in gaming will ignore the fact that an actual Native writer who writes about actual Native settings and characters is getting a shot at the big(ger) time because it's not a Hey Everyone Freak Out message that makes the outraged citizen themself look good.

So the obvious opportunity to encourage actual, undeniable progress along by supporting Anthony will be passed over because it doesn't provide an easy way to make them look good or smart or More Engaged Than Thou.

Noting for the record that the supplement has come out and I am psychic.

To be fair, it wasn't the most difficult of prognostications.  There were really only two possibilities:

a) the Pseudo-activists would say it somehow "isn't enough".

b) the Pseudo-activists would not react at all because it doesn't serve their purposes.

I excluded "isn't enough" because:

1. That would involve them in directly addressing Anthony and Alina's existence, which is embarrassing since they are (yet more) members of a marginalized group with undeniable talent who aren't Drama Club members

2. The more professionally-connected members of the Drama Club, would be forced to be welcoming to at least Anthony (since he's on G+) and this would mean there'd be a split between people who were forced into a "welcome Anthony to the fold of RPG freelancers!" position and those who were had forced themselves into a "nothing MCG could possibly do is enough!" position.

You actually see #2 happen a lot when the stakes are a little lower--the members of the Drama Club with RPG jobs have to kind of dissociate themselves from the positions taken by the people who have taken up positions which directly challenge people they'll have to see at Gen Con the next year or be on panels with or work with.

So you can see like Ettin vituperate against Mike Mearls but then Shannon Appelcline just has to kind of go Ettin? Who's that? Guy who works on my site? Never heard of him.

Now that there's a thread over there, we can gauge the real reaction or lack.

I guess we could, or continue on about their foibles and hoisted petards and whatnot. But I'd kinda wish we kept on the quality of his content and its kickass potential. I sorta want a reason to incorporate a "buffalo hide TV" now in my game, especially since I just found that Maztica has a spell equivalent in the spell Scrollsee. Something about the North American continent makes TVs a natural fit.

Quote from: Opaopajr;840725I sorta want a reason to incorporate a "buffalo hide TV" now in my game, especially since I just found that Maztica has a spell equivalent in the spell Scrollsee. Something about the North American continent makes TVs a natural fit.

Teepee or lodge poles as antennas. Or maybe a pole with feathers and buffalo horns and stuff helps extend the range or accuracy of the "buffalo hide TV." The idea that people would be fiddling with their 'antennas' like in the 1950s and 1960s seems kind of quirky and interesting.

Well that would be a cool idea: totem poles, tikis, statues, standing stones all over the world being supernatural conduits or antennae...

I'm sure that "Ancient Aliens" goofball has already tapped that, though.

The Georgio Tsoukalos recursion is one I'd like to play in. It'd be like the Torg Space Gods cosm turned to 11.

Quote from: Necrozius;840778Well that would be a cool idea: totem poles, tikis, statues, standing stones all over the world being supernatural conduits or antennae...

I'm sure that "Ancient Aliens" goofball has already tapped that, though.

Yeah, I was going to mention that show. Its great for mining kooky setting ideas.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;840779The Georgio Tsoukalos recursion is one I'd like to play in. It'd be like the Torg Space Gods cosm turned to 11.

That could be pretty cool...

Quote from: Bren;840741Teepee or lodge poles as antennas. Or maybe a pole with feathers and buffalo horns and stuff helps extend the range or accuracy of the "buffalo hide TV." The idea that people would be fiddling with their 'antennas' like in the 1950s and 1960s seems kind of quirky and interesting.

Make sure the guy doing the actual fiddling is a hapless, bemused nephew instead of the real player in the situation. The last time I visited a traditional religious specialist, he legit made me mount his giant new tv on the wall & then set it up while we talked. Or maybe make the PCs do it, being shouted minor adjustments & criticisms all the while.

Quote from: antion;840808Make sure the guy doing the actual fiddling is a hapless, bemused nephew instead of the real player in the situation. The last time I visited a traditional religious specialist, he legit made me mount his giant new tv on the wall & then set it up while we talked. Or maybe make the PCs do it, being shouted minor adjustments & criticisms all the while.

Bonus if the guy shouting the instructions is warm and dry inside while the PCs are out in the wind and rain making the adjustments that they can barely hear over the storm... and the wind keeps messing with their adjustment.

Ahhh....reminds me of the 1960s.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;840720Now that there's a thread over there, we can gauge the real reaction or lack.

Well, it's been an entire day, and the thread you mentioned has received a shocking 1 response. It is now approaching the bottom of the RPGnet forum front page and will soon disappear from general view.

So at this time it appears that Zak S will likely be proven correct.

Link for those who are curious:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?760710-The-Strange-Ohunkakan-Thunder-Plains-replacement

Hehe, just noticed the thread on Dark Albion over there is on the front page and has 57 posts, about a fifth of which argue about the 'problematicity' of the RPGPundit.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;840824Hehe, just noticed the thread on Dark Albion over there is on the front page and has 57 posts, about a fifth of which argue about the 'problematicity' of the RPGPundit.

Dagnabit, don't pique my curiosity.  I'm trying to avoid that site but juicy stuff like this makes me want to look.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;840822Well, it's been an entire day, and the thread you mentioned has received a shocking 1 response. It is now approaching the bottom of the RPGnet forum front page and will soon disappear from general view.

So at this time it appears that Zak S will likely be proven correct.

Link for those who are curious:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?760710-The-Strange-Ohunkakan-Thunder-Plains-replacement

Yeah, I know. Some asshole who may or may not be a paraprofessional library worker posted that thread. I wish I could say I am surprised by the (lack of) response.

Quote from: Bren;840741Teepee or lodge poles as antennas. Or maybe a pole with feathers and buffalo horns and stuff helps extend the range or accuracy of the "buffalo hide TV." The idea that people would be fiddling with their 'antennas' like in the 1950s and 1960s seems kind of quirky and interesting.

Quote from: Necrozius;840778Well that would be a cool idea: totem poles, tikis, statues, standing stones all over the world being supernatural conduits or antennae...

I'm sure that "Ancient Aliens" goofball has already tapped that, though.

Quote from: antion;840808Make sure the guy doing the actual fiddling is a hapless, bemused nephew instead of the real player in the situation. The last time I visited a traditional religious specialist, he legit made me mount his giant new tv on the wall & then set it up while we talked. Or maybe make the PCs do it, being shouted minor adjustments & criticisms all the while.

See, that's the stuff I dig. This is flavorful tidbits, like "attuning" to the spirit world is the norm, but the religious leader expects a little hands on help while setting up "the equipment." Very in tune with the atmosphere of the cosmology as well, where finding your path through dreams and visions expects a little effort and cooperation on the seeker's part.

I now have a scene brewing in my head of a medicine man's teepee with his TV-hide on the fritz. Whacks the hide frame a bit, asks a local kid to adjust a hard-to-reach sacred feather, then shrugs and calls a camp meeting. "Well, the spirits are fighting again, ruining spirit world reception, so a storm's a'brewin'. Time to move, only got a few days."

Similar to some of the stuff suggested in Andersons "Operation Chaos" novel. Just do the same for spirit magic and extrapolate it to modern times. Probably end up with something like an NA version of the Flintstones. Just not as extensive.

I always thought Shadowrun should have played with these sorts of consepts more.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;840835Yeah, I know. Some asshole who may or may not be a paraprofessional library worker posted that thread. I wish I could say I am surprised by the (lack of) response.

And after two piffling posts it's gone from the front page as of now.

Congratulations outrage brigade, you never fail to disappoint!

Dunno what people were expecting. Flag-waving and high-fives?

That went out the window for the usual suspects once Monte didn't make a grovelling apology and called some of them out on their antics. It's not enough to admit fault, you have to eat shit whilst doing it for some of these fucks. Monte was never gonna get any kudos from that kind of person - the ones that shout loudest and 'lobby' hardest (i say lobby, i mean more like organised harassing, but that's another story).

The people who were able to get this changed because of reasoned argument, rather than the outrage brigade, are the ones celebrating and they're too polite to do it in public.

So you're left with largely silence. Critics of the original write-up who wanted blood and instead got called out on yet more shitty behavior towards designers aren't saying 'well done' because they didn't get Monte to grovel to them and the people who actually got it changed are too busy playing to post about it.

How much was really changed exactly? The Thunder Plains is still that printing of the book (the few sentences that it is), the new supplement doesn't eradicate it. You can use them both in the same game for that matter.

I wondered that too. If the original entry still in the book? Or in later prints? Sounds like it is?

Quote from: Omega;841078I wondered that too. If the original entry still in the book? Or in later prints? Sounds like it is?

The Thunder Plains is in the first printing of The Strange. In subsequent printings, this new recursion is supposed to replace it. That's why this PDF is free. It's actually meant for those of us who have already bought the book.

So they did cave totally rather than median it. Thats a shame.

Sucks to loose a potentially fun setting. But Thunder Plains "write up" is like a paragraph isn't it? They're going to replace with a mini supplement full of material?

Quote from: Nexus;841107Sucks to loose a potentially fun setting. But Thunder Plains "write up" is like a paragraph isn't it? They're going to replace with a mini supplement full of material?

TP's entry is just over two pages, which is about average for the recursions in the "Other Recursions" section of the core book. Some are a little shorter (Gloaming, the one right after Thunder Plains, gets less than two pages) and some can hit three or four pages, depending on art. Ohunkakan has five pages of material with only one illustration. It won't stick out terribly but it will easily be the longest entry.

Quote from: Brand55;841129TP's entry is just over two pages, which is about average for the recursions in the "Other Recursions" section of the core book. Some are a little shorter (Gloaming, the one right after Thunder Plains, gets less than two pages) and some can hit three or four pages, depending on art. Ohunkakan has five pages of material with only one illustration. It won't stick out terribly but it will easily be the longest entry.

I'd gotten the impression it was much shorter. Should be interesting reading. It's still a shame that they the company ended up essentially caving to this pressure and lost something that was flavorful and showed something of the games nature despite the replacement material being good as well when they could have at least shared space in the setting and shown more of the variety and bizarre possibilities of Recursions.

Quote from: Nexus;841144I'd gotten the impression it was much shorter. Should be interesting reading. It's still a shame that they the company ended up essentially caving to this pressure and lost something that was flavorful and showed something of the games nature despite the replacement material being good as well when they could have at least shared space in the setting and shown more of the variety and bizarre possibilities of Recursions.

The chapter TP is in contains three sections of "other recursions." The first gets anywhere from about two to four pages (depending on art). Without art, they run no more than about two pages each. These take up the majority of the chapter, and TP is one of them.

The second type of recursion gets only one or two paragraphs. Then finally there is a page of "Recursions in the Public Domain" like Oz or Innsmouth with another page of artifacts like the Necronomicon and a Vorpal Sword. Combined, these last two sections list about a dozen recursions plus some other stuff on the last 4-5 pages of the chapter.

I'm glad that we got Ohunkakan. I haven't got a chance to read it (I'm way behind on my rpg-related reading) but I expect it will be good considering who wrote it. I would have preferred if Thunder Plains hadn't been cut out, though.

Quote from: Zak S;840689I excluded "isn't enough" because:

1. That would involve them in directly addressing Anthony and Alina's existence, which is embarrassing since they are (yet more) members of a marginalized group with undeniable talent who aren't Drama Club members

2. The more professionally-connected members of the Drama Club, would be forced to be welcoming to at least Anthony (since he's on G+) and this would mean there'd be a split between people who were forced into a "welcome Anthony to the fold of RPG freelancers!" position and those who were had forced themselves into a "nothing MCG could possibly do is enough!" position.

You actually see #2 happen a lot when the stakes are a little lower--the members of the Drama Club with RPG jobs have to kind of dissociate themselves from the positions taken by the people who have taken up positions which directly challenge people they'll have to see at Gen Con the next year or be on panels with or work with.

So you can see like Ettin vituperate against Mike Mearls but then Shannon Appelcline just has to kind of go Ettin? Who's that? Guy who works on my site? Never heard of him.

Yes, that's a good assessment.