SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Monte Crook’s (not so) Open License for Cypher System

Started by FingerRod, October 07, 2022, 03:20:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages1 2 3
User actions

FingerRod

October 07, 2022, 03:20:08 PM
This probably would have popped sooner on my radar if people I know played Cypher System, but MCG released an open license on July 22 of this year.

Full links below, but the first indication something was up could be found in faded font at the bottom of the press release. Bold mine.

Quote from: Open License Press Release
Please note that the Cypher System Open License, although open in nature, is a legal agreement that you enter into with Monte Cook Games, LLC, if you publish under its terms. This page's depictions of the CSOL's terms are descriptive only; refer to the Cypher System Open License for actual terms and conditions. Be sure you read, understand, and agree to the terms of the Cypher System Open License before publishing.

A couple clicks later you get to the license itself, but I will offer to save you some time and pull out two interesting sections. Again, bold mine.

Quote from: Cypher System Open License: section/paragraph 10
Neither the Work nor any advertising, promotions, press releases, or other documents affiliated with the Work may contain racist, homophobic, discriminatory, or other repugnant views; overt political agendas or views; depictions or descriptions of criminal violence against children; rape or other acts of criminal perversion; or other obscene material.

Consider how many different definitions, interpretations, etc. could be applied to what you read above as you read the punchline.

Quote from: Cypher System Open License: section/paragraph 14
If You breach any of the terms of this Agreement, it results in automatic termination of the Agreement. Unless the breach is cured to MCG's sole satisfaction and such cure is documented by a written agreement between You and MCG within 15 days of breach, You must immediately recall and destroy all existing copies of the Work. You may additionally be subject to damages as a result of breach.

Would any of you consider this an open license?


Press release: https://www.montecookgames.com/the-cypher-system-open-license-is-now-available/
License: https://csol.montecookgames.com/license/

Stephen Tannhauser

#1
October 07, 2022, 04:44:40 PM
First thought that came to me was, "Who the hell defines 'repugnant' in this arrangement?"

Second was, "What constitutes an 'overt' political agenda?"

Third was, "You realize this completely disqualifies any historical or modern setting which goes into any detail about the actual beliefs of most Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist denominations throughout history, or assumes most NPCs of those faiths are going to share those beliefs even if the PCs don't care?"

Fourth was, "This is really just a trap designed to allow MCG to hit any user of their system they don't like with a lawsuit, isn't it?"
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

STR 8 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 11 WIS 6 CHA 3

BoxCrayonTales

#2
October 07, 2022, 04:51:40 PM
This kind of shit is why I lost my interest in making my own rpgs. I can't just make games for entertainment value anymore, I have to be an activist too? Okay, fuck rpgs then. I'm better off writing romance novels or something.

PulpHerb

#3
October 07, 2022, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on October 07, 2022, 04:44:40 PM
Fourth was, "This is really just a trap designed to allow MCG to hit any user of their system they don't like with a lawsuit, isn't it?"

We have a winner.

For example, "overt political agenda" means "politics I disagree with".

Jam The MF

#4
October 08, 2022, 06:01:26 AM
"You may additionally be subject to damages...."

He's just setting an obvious trap.  He probably thinks that people can't wait to adopt all of his innovative ideas, and will be willing to bow their knee and kiss his ring.

He is probably lauded with high praises, over on the big purple cow.  Moo!!!
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

RebelSky

#5
October 09, 2022, 07:55:56 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 07, 2022, 04:51:40 PM
This kind of shit is why I lost my interest in making my own rpgs. I can't just make games for entertainment value anymore, I have to be an activist too? Okay, fuck rpgs then. I'm better off writing romance novels or something.

You'd make a lot more money writing romance novels. 😉

BoxCrayonTales

#6
October 09, 2022, 02:07:09 PM
Quote from: RebelSky on October 09, 2022, 07:55:56 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 07, 2022, 04:51:40 PM
This kind of shit is why I lost my interest in making my own rpgs. I can't just make games for entertainment value anymore, I have to be an activist too? Okay, fuck rpgs then. I'm better off writing romance novels or something.

You'd make a lot more money writing romance novels. 😉
Depressing but true.

Omega

#7
October 09, 2022, 02:36:44 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 07, 2022, 04:51:40 PM
This kind of shit is why I lost my interest in making my own rpgs. I can't just make games for entertainment value anymore, I have to be an activist too? Okay, fuck rpgs then. I'm better off writing romance novels or something.

We find Cook's dogma to be... repugnant.

That is right kids. By his own rules his own rules fire him from the game. Bravo Mr Cook.

But this is ever the case with the woke and the social justice cultists. They make these rules never thinking that the rules might someday be applied to them.

Its like with OneBookShelf. Whats wacist? Well they will "know it when they see it."
Guess what OBS? We know you are racist fucks because you push and enforce these hateful racebaiting agendas with sickening fervor.

rytrasmi

#8
October 09, 2022, 03:40:48 PM
Why would anyone use this?

other repugnant views ... You must immediately recall and destroy all existing copies of the Work


So, basically, if your product contains a view that Cook finds repugnant, whatever that may be, then not only do you have to stop selling your product, you have to do a recall??

No serious publisher is going to touch this. They're going to get legal advice and likely realize that the "license" can be withdrawn on a whim.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

Batjon

#9
October 09, 2022, 04:35:21 PM Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 04:37:07 PM by Batjon
Monte Cooke is a leftist woke cuck.  Even though I love Numenera, he can screw off.  And this is rich coming from a guy who both employs and dates a woman (if he can even define what that is) that writes BDSM erotica as a side hussle.

Omega

#10
October 09, 2022, 10:27:57 PM
Of course. The rules only ever apply to someone else. Perfectly fine for the woke to do these things because they are being somehow inclusive!

That is till someone finally levels the gut at them. This its all wailing and gnashing of teeth at how horrible these woke people are and how they were reeeeeeallly one of us all along and please help. (By buying their now totally not woke products!)

Cat the Bounty Smuggler

#11
October 10, 2022, 11:36:23 AM
The original Free Software and Open Source movements debated the issue of "ethical behavior" clauses a long time ago and concluded that they were (a) open to abuse and (b) incompatible with the goal of not having to ask permission to reuse free/open content. If I'm having to check with the copyright holder to make sure that my derivative work is OK because the rules are unclear or ambiguous, that's not an open license.

So no, this is not an open license in the original sense. In particular, this:

Quote from: Cypher System Open License: section/paragraph 14
If You breach any of the terms of this Agreement, it results in automatic termination of the Agreement. Unless the breach is cured to MCG's sole satisfaction and such cure is documented by a written agreement between You and MCG within 15 days of breach, You must immediately recall and destroy all existing copies of the Work. You may additionally be subject to damages as a result of breach.

...is the single most malicious clause I've ever seen in a license, open or not.

Brooding Paladin

#12
October 10, 2022, 03:02:58 PM
Great job to the OP doing the work to find this.  It's worded so vaguely that they could pull back on anything they disagree with which, as has been pointed out, is just code for, "align to our wokiness or pay the price."  Well, he can take that attitude and pound sand.  I'm done buying anything from MCG and I previously was a customer.  No longer.

Batjon

#13
October 10, 2022, 04:17:44 PM
I was a huge fan of the setting of Numenera but based on several political statements MC has made and based on this, he will not get one more dime of my money.

Zelen

#14
October 10, 2022, 04:18:05 PM Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 06:12:14 PM by Zelen
I thought maybe this was a bit overblown at first, perhaps taken out of context. Then I looked at the license. Yeah, I don't see why anyone would ever release a product using this license. You'd be deliberately harming your product and putting yourself at the mercy of a third party.

Without the license, at worst you just lose out on the product recognition of explicitly saying "Cypher System" -- But is that even a selling point for most gamers? I don't see that having much pull.
Print
Go Up Pages1 2 3
User actions