Monte Cook Is an RPG Maoist

baran_i_kanu · September 14, 2019, 08:53:26 PM

It's a product to coddle weak people.
Meh. As long as it stays away from my table.

Omega · September 14, 2019, 10:10:00 PM

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1103800Is Monte Cook really such a great designer? Famous, sure, but... is there anything original about D&D 3E? And regarding d20 Cthulhu - where is it now? Has it gone anywhere, really?

If I recall right did he not do some stuff for Iron Crown way back? Rolemaster or Champions? And Dark Space? And he is credited as the designer for the Dark*Matter setting for Alternity and d20m. Though I believe Rich Baker was the main designer for that. Not positive. Been a few decades and the books are in storage. He is also the designer for Dead Gods which alot of people rave about as a great D&D/Planescape module.

You can see all the stuff hes done big and small over on BGG.
https://rpggeek.com/rpgdesigner/12569/monte-cook

Omega · September 14, 2019, 10:20:36 PM

Quote from: VincentTakeda;1103940After checking out the checklist in the back, it doesnt seem so bad.

And then everyone realizes that the book doesn't mean TTRPGs... :eek:

Omega · September 14, 2019, 10:29:23 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;1103988I'd have to say that is exactly what is going on.

Ive noted this in past threads here and there.

What we are seeing are factions treating RPGs and other media as a fetish and setting out to infiltraite, co-opt and then supplant that thing with their own fetish. Storygamers in particular use the Exact Same Tactics.

Then you get the splinter factions that inevitably want to "clean up the media" by getting rid of or killing off anything they disapprove of. (or in a crack headed bit to get rid of competition) In an ever escalating spiral of ever more stringent criteria.

jeff37923 · September 15, 2019, 03:34:46 AM

The thing that sticks in my craw is that the act of creating a guidebook on consent in an RPG is declaring that your average gamer is an incompetant at socialization and needs this. Same with the X-card. If the person you are gaming with is that pathetic at human interaction, then they probably shouldn't be involved in the hobby.

This is the kind of crap that sucks the fun right out of a RPG.

Scrivener of Doom · September 15, 2019, 05:25:07 AM

Quote from: Omega;1104045(snip) Though I believe Rich Baker was the main designer for that. (snip)

Rich Baker is a great designer.

Even Chris Perkins said that Rich was the best adventure designer at WotC. (And, yes, adventure design is only a subset of RPG design but it's the one where everything else comes together.) It's hard to believe Rich got booted but the spammiest of OGL spambots was retained. Maybe Rich wasn't interested in going woke?

Alexander Kalinowski · September 15, 2019, 06:19:18 AM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1104027But who gets to decide what is great? There are lots of musicians and singers who appeal to a narrow selection of critics, or who appeal to other musicians, because they seem to be carving new ground, or because they are doing things that musicians find interesting. And there is definitely a place for that. But there is also something to be said for people who can appeal to a much broader audience. I think greatness operates on multiple levels here: technical skill, audience appeal, how inspired the person is, how innovative. I don't think you can just pick 'innovation' as the thing to measure. It is one thing, and it is often important, but innovation for its own sake, without thinking of the other categories, points you in the direction of something with very narrow appeal.

Well, you can take a look at how often an innovation is being imitated, for example. Also, how different an innovation has been from what was before, how much was added.
I will concede that sometimes the invention is in the right mix of things that have been invented by others before. But even then the mix has to stand out from others' mixes, I think.

Again, I'm not saying that Cook is a bad designer. I guess I just see some divergence between his notoriety and his actual design merits (by which I mean D&D 3E in particular). But then again... name recognition definitely comes with being a lead designer of any D&D core rulebook - so... good for him!

S'mon · September 15, 2019, 06:40:52 AM

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1104078Rich Baker is a great designer.

Even Chris Perkins said that Rich was the best adventure designer at WotC. (And, yes, adventure design is only a subset of RPG design but it's the one where everything else comes together.) It's hard to believe Rich got booted but the spammiest of OGL spambots was retained. Maybe Rich wasn't interested in going woke?

Judging by the Sasquatch corporate blog discussion of what Primeval Thule was supposed to be, Rich doesn't seem very Woke (the published product is much tamer). AIR his personal blog is pretty un-Woke, too.

I agree he's The Best Adventure Writer. My current campaign/adventure line up - stuff I'm currently running:

5e Primeval Thule - Rich Baker
5e Red Hand of Doom - Rich Baker
5e Princes of the Apocalypse - Rich Baker
5e Shattered Star Dead Heart of Xin - Brandon Hodge

3 out of 4 ain't bad!

Edit: from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baker_(game_designer)
Rich Baker was born and raised in Florida, then moved with his family to New Jersey at age ten.[1] Baker graduated from Virginia Tech in 1988 with a degree in English.[1] He received a commission as an ensign in the U.S. Navy, and served as a deck officer for three years on board the USS Tortuga; he qualified as a Surface Warfare Officer and was a lieutenant (junior grade) by the time he left the Navy.[1] Baker married his college sweetheart, Kim Rohrbach.[1] They have two daughters, Alex and Hannah.[2]

You can kinda see how he might not be too Woke.

Another edit: Looking at Wikipedia, frankly it's clear his design talents go far beyond RPGs. He seems to have produced most of the best D&D stuff over the past 30 years!

RPGPundit · September 15, 2019, 10:18:26 AM

Quote from: ligedog;1103750Say what you will about Mao but I don't think worrying about consent and other peoples feelings were really part of his governing philosophy.

Nor are they part of the governing philosophy of the people who wrote this thing.

GIMME SOME SUGAR · September 15, 2019, 10:45:38 AM

Oh, my goodness! I got banned when trying to make my second post on this topic at rpg.net. I asked alittle about what romance, explicit was. I feel violated now. I was just about to add to my post with this when I got a message that I was banned:

I also thought of another thing. The list is kind of filled with potential spoilers. How do you work around that? Lie? "No, Billy, listen to me. Calm down. It's not that kind of horror game. I promise on my mother's grave that there will be no eyeballs in this scenario. Zero, zip, zilch, nada."

Spoiler

GOTCHA, BILLY!!! WHAT'S THE MATTER? SCARED?

Haffrung · September 15, 2019, 01:24:55 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;1104067The thing that sticks in my craw is that the act of creating a guidebook on consent in an RPG is declaring that your average gamer is an incompetant at socialization and needs this. Same with the X-card. If the person you are gaming with is that pathetic at human interaction, then they probably shouldn't be involved in the hobby.

Yep. It's not clear to me if the people pushing the stuff really believe most gamers are so deeply fucked up that this sort of hyper-anxious policing of behaviour is necessary, or they're just so in love with the idea of being saviours that they'll pretend the world is far more dangerous than it really is on order to burnish their reputation.

Alexander Kalinowski · September 15, 2019, 01:34:42 PM

Gonna call it: some troll GM is going to use the list to find out just where to strike. I mean just using this list is kinda exposing your own weaknesses to someone else. Some people you're concerned enough about to require an explicit no-no list at that. Which actually vulnerable person is going to consent to any of this?

GIMME SOME SUGAR · September 15, 2019, 03:37:00 PM

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1104120Gonna call it: some troll GM is going to use the list to find out just where to strike. I mean just using this list is kinda exposing your own weaknesses to someone else. Some people you're concerned enough about to require an explicit no-no list at that. Which actually vulnerable person is going to consent to any of this?

And it also leaves that vulnerable person open to questions like: "So eyeballs are out, Billy? Completely? Ok. Just wondering, what is it about eyeballs that's so scary, Billy? Don't want to talk about it?", followed by the rolling of scary eyeballs around the gaming table.

Warboss Squee · September 15, 2019, 03:52:34 PM

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1104078Rich Baker is a great designer.

Even Chris Perkins said that Rich was the best adventure designer at WotC. (And, yes, adventure design is only a subset of RPG design but it's the one where everything else comes together.) It's hard to believe Rich got booted but the spammiest of OGL spambots was retained. Maybe Rich wasn't interested in going woke?

Some of Baker's comments on various forums have seemed pretty woke to me, but that might be him trying to avoid a lynch mob. Not that that ever helps.

SavageSchemer · September 15, 2019, 04:02:08 PM

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1104131And it also leaves that vulnerable person open to questions like: "So eyeballs are out, Billy? Completely? Ok. Just wondering, what is it about eyeballs that's so scary, Billy? Don't want to talk about it?", followed by the rolling of scary eyeballs around the gaming table.

I have to admit, this is exactly the kind of thing I'd do to a friend who had this issue. I realize, not for the first time, that I'm an asshole friend.