Quote from: ggroy;535391In practice, this type of information is quite difficult to determine.  :pundit:

Yup. That's why people who can do so (usually) get paid a lot of money.

It's also why some companies resort to the "release 50 gadgets, see which one sells, make more of that" strategy. It's also why people make so many mistakes and release so many commercial failures.

This is difficult to do. But the other option—"listen to what people say they want, give them exactly that"—is no more likely to be successful, and never leads to something inspired or great.

"If I’d asked my customers what they wanted, they’d have said a faster horse." Henry Ford. He didn't, and so we got the automobile. And everything that came from it.

This doesn't mean "never listen to customers". It means "understand your customer's needs better than they themselves do". Sometimes the customer will be right, but not every single time.

Creating something great requires the ability to make the right decision, even when people tell you its wrong. This courage may lead you to make the wrong decision, which is where humility comes into it. Admit the mistake, correct your course.

It's hard on both ends, and there is no checklist or recipe to ensure you get it right. But done right, you can produce something of exquisite quality.

Which is a goal worth striving for, even if never achieved. And if achieved, something to marvel at.

Quote from: Monkey Boy;535339Late May play test folowed by a September release makes the play test worthless. That puts all the pressure on the Nda folk to iron things out.

5e will be GenCon 2013. There is no way they can do the promised playtest and release in 2012. The PR backlash would be a nightmare and even I don't think they are that stupid.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;535388So if I'm reading this correctly, the job of the game designer is to listen to what the players say they want, and then figure out what they actually want and design for that.

Though I think the 'One D&D to Rule Them All' philosophy is destined for failure, I have to agree with this bit.

Sounds more like market research. Playtesting should be the process by which you test your rules to see if they work. If players don't like those rules or the setting then that's another matter. Should such people even be playtesting that game?

If you play the blog post backwards at 1.5x speed, the secret messages will reveal the real reasons Monte has left the company.

Quote from: Spinachcat;5353975e will be GenCon 2013. There is no way they can do the promised playtest and release in 2012. The PR backlash would be a nightmare and even I don't think they are that stupid.

Isn't D&D Day in March or so? I'd expect it then.

Quote from: Melan;535406If you play the blog post backwards at 1.5x speed, the secret messages will reveal the real reasons Monte has left the company.

Tried it - the needle destroyed the disc in my hard drive.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;535508Tried it - the needle destroyed the disc in my hard drive.

By design! This is a blog post of Evil I tell you.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;535392This doesn't mean "never listen to customers". It means "understand your customer's needs better than they themselves do". Sometimes the customer will be right, but not every single time.

Creating something great requires the ability to make the right decision, even when people tell you its wrong. This courage may lead you to make the wrong decision, which is where humility comes into it. Admit the mistake, correct your course.

This is the problem with current US corporate capitalism.  It is focused almost solely on reaching the broadest possible audience with the minimum amount of effort or research, which always means appealing to the lowest common denominator.  Corporate-spawned games follow this policy with shit as the result.  EA ruined Mythic and they're currently on the way to ruining Bioware.  Hasbro practically flushed D&D down the toilet now WotC is trying to fix it, and Monte's leaving may mean Hasbro just had the blue plate special and is ready to let fly once more.  I'd like to see a young Ridley Scott just try to make the original Alien today without tits and a wisecracking sidekick.  Then you have Steve Jobs, who kept trying until he changed the way the world uses technology.

Quote from: Spinachcat;5353975e will be GenCon 2013. There is no way they can do the promised playtest and release in 2012. The PR backlash would be a nightmare and even I don't think they are that stupid.

I found mysef agreeing with everything you said...until you got to the part about them being that stupid.  Now I'm not sure if I agree with any of it.

Hey, I remember months ago saying they'd have at least something by GenCon 2012...as ridiculously accelerated a schedule as that is, WotC doesn't have much choice.

4e sales have certainly dropped off since DnDNext, as gamers have to be a little concerned at buying books that could easily go obsolete. "No sales" is a very bad place to be, and they're highly motivated to fix it. Fast.

A full blown system is unlikely, but a faux "Blue Box" type deal is quite plausible if they focus on keeping things simple.

Quote from: CRKrueger;535513This is the problem with current US corporate capitalism.

"Lowest common denominator" marketing is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is the current practice of speculation in corporate stocks rather than long-term dividend rewards.  Paying CEOs in stock options is part and parcel of this; it encourages short-term, quarter-by-quarter thinking that's designed to briefly pump up stock prices so the holders can make out like bandits.  That's not a very good way to run a company over the long term, though.

Quote from: daniel_ream;535957"Lowest common denominator" marketing is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is the current practice of speculation in corporate stocks rather than long-term dividend rewards.  Paying CEOs in stock options is part and parcel of this; it encourages short-term, quarter-by-quarter thinking that's designed to briefly pump up stock prices so the holders can make out like bandits.  That's not a very good way to run a company over the long term, though.

Absolutely true.

Quote from: Doom;535918Hey, I remember months ago saying they'd have at least something by GenCon 2012...as ridiculously accelerated a schedule as that is, WotC doesn't have much choice.

4e sales have certainly dropped off since DnDNext, as gamers have to be a little concerned at buying books that could easily go obsolete. "No sales" is a very bad place to be, and they're highly motivated to fix it. Fast.

A full blown system is unlikely, but a faux "Blue Box" type deal is quite plausible if they focus on keeping things simple.

It may be ridiculous, but that's the sort of schedule the video games industry adopts. Though not without problems, and considerable ones, it seems to work. Can designing a tabeltop rpg be harder? Isn't it a question of manpower? After all the game won't be that different.

Well, now I'm curious about 4e sales numbers. Granted since WotC doesn't put them out, it'll have to remain in the realm of anecdotal evidence and rampant speculation. But I'm OK with this. I sense 'entertainment' this way comes.

I'm just trying to figure out where's my pricing point to buy 4e on sale. Considering all the old stuff I can snag at Half Priced Books, and how much RPG stuff I don't use, I'm thinking something quite low. First I'd have to figure out what books would be worth purchasing, like the GURPS/HERO topic. For that I'd have to turn to this site's wisdom.

I'm guessing my pricing point would be somewhere around $3~5 per book -- and then it'd have to be some of the better books. If I liked the art more, I could justify $7, but alas it's too anime+supers+video gamey for me. But there's always something to be said for hardcover books... excellent to squish stray insects.

It reminds me of what Seth Godin said about "broken systems." "I don't care if you don't think it's broken. If I think it's broken, it's broken. And you get to say the same thing."