Having read a bit from Nick Bostrom and the fiction author Peter Watts, I've been thinking on creatures that embody or are existential threats, be that creatures or phenomenon that are on an order of magnitude more dangerous to us than other beings.

I would not class creatures like a Red Dragons (or any other type) as such because ultimately even their cupidty can be sated, even if only for a time.

Nor something like the Tarasque, because again ultimately while it is the "apocalypse beast" it really is more a temporary end to civilization within a frame of time (at best) which is hardly the same as being able to put an end to human existence.

Nor even a evil deity, because often while they may be omnipotent relative to mortals, they still answer to and are accountable to peers equal or greater than them.

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potency, size, or how evil something is really does not determine if something is an existential threat. john carpenter's The Thing is unlikely to win a straight up death match against anything I just listed, but I'd put actual money on something like that finally putting the nail in Forgotten Realm's coffin before any thing else managed to do that mismanaged game-setting in.

Not that this post is exclusive to D&D's settings or it's monster, but using them as a springboard to the general topic and what I don't consider an existential threat.

Old-school spawning incorporeal undead.  Spectres traditionally haunt their crypts, but they've not bound to them.  They can kill a common mortal with a single touch (since that will inflict more negative levels than they have levels, meaning they die and rise as a spectre themselves).  Said spawn are under the command of the spectre that spawned them.

So, if you want to kill a world, you get a specture with Command Undead or similar, make it make a bunch of child spectres and order it to order them to obey you as it would it, then lock it away (since everyone becomes free-willed and less efficiently omnicidal if it gets destroyed), then take each of your F1 spectres to a city, and order them to start turning mortals, and to recursively order their spawn to do the same.

Cities with already-laid-down areas of Forbiddance around temples might have some survivors, and you'll need some ways to strip Death Ward when people start fighting back, but again, spectres are only bound to their tombs by tradition.  You could have incorporeal virally-reproducing undead scouring the countryside and turning the entire rural farming population, and you can have this while you're assaulting every major city in the world simultaneously.

I also think that you undersell little-a apocalypses.  It's built into the setting assumptions that D&D worlds are incredibly fucking hostile places, with multiple kinds of megafauna that are more than happy to take a crack at fully-grown humans, and that's just the animals and animal-equivalent.  What happens to the wizards in a post-apocalyptic situation, and they not only can't buy spell scrolls, they can't buy enchanted vellum or inks, and need to account for every spell component and reagent? How do the fighters do when every weaponsmith and armorsmith in every village is dead, and the only way to get loot is to find a dungeon no one's delved into yet and hope it has something that's lasted?

If populations are only holding on because adventurers are holding the line, and if adventurers (save druids and monks) need there to be a functional economy to hold said line...well, knocking out civilization locally might well lead to everyone in the area slowly dying from there on.

I'll also point out that the symmetry between evil and good gods is not necessarily enforced by the rules.  A Nerull or other greater god of death may not have destroyed the world yet for lore reasons, but at least in their 3.5 incarnations, could absolutely decide that they were shamed by their death-cultists being willing to die for their cause and sponsor a mass spectre-bombing as above, knowing that when the dust settled they would meet their final end as the world itself became berefit any capable of faith and prayer, but willing to do so because as the world began to die, they'd be more powerful than the other waning gods as death overtook the plane.  It's just that most adventures don't start with "An NPC noticed this funny interaction in the rules...and now the party is attacked by infinity spectres!"

D&D rules usually remember to, when they go genre-bendy, to say explicitly "This technological item is to be treated as magic with regards to rarity and mass-production; your wizard can't just take a visit to modern Earth and then mass-Fabricate crude oil and fertilizer into ANFO.", but plenty of settings don't do that, and plenty of settings technically let you do thinks like Major Create, e.g., a giant mass of plutonium.  (Which you might even cast Implosion on for funsies.)  If that is a possibility, then a Connecticut Yankee might end up being an existential threat, not for what they can do, but for what others in the world can get from them, and what effects that might cause in the world.  In our world, nuclear proliferation was limited by the logistical difficulties of getting enriched radioisotypes, building and delivering the weapon, and dealing with the world powers pushing in your shit for trying.  In a D&D world, where you have a lot more people who are willing to kick over the civilizational apple-cart to get at those hated orcs/dwarves/dark elves/other people who you know would nuke you first if they could/etc., and with plenty of wizards who are already drunk enough to try magically breeding owls and bears together for no damn reason, there's no reason to think that MAD would keep a lid on things.

Quote from: robertliguori on October 07, 2024, 11:46:04 PMI'll also point out that the symmetry between evil and good gods is not necessarily enforced by the rules.  A Nerull or other greater god of death may not have destroyed the world yet for lore reasons, but at least in their 3.5 incarnations, could absolutely decide that they were shamed by their death-cultists being willing to die for their cause and sponsor a mass spectre-bombing as above, knowing that when the dust settled they would meet their final end as the world itself became berefit any capable of faith and prayer, but willing to do so because as the world began to die, they'd be more powerful than the other waning gods as death overtook the plane.  It's just that most adventures don't start with "An NPC noticed this funny interaction in the rules...and now the party is attacked by infinity spectres!"

This is just not really a thing from a lore perspective, if Aoe doesn't wan't Nerull to necro-nuke a prime-plane, Nerull cannot do shit about it, best case scenario his lesser peers dog-pile him and and give Tharizdun a new cell mate.

The cosmic balance is quite tight actually, nobody, even the greater gods don't rock the boat because Tharizdun coming back is a big deal, or the Demons winning the blood war. basically the reason gods aren't interjecting themselves into mortal lives all the time is because of some very primal pacts and deals regarding the current state of the multiverse were paid with the blood of countless gods we don't even know the names of.  and there are a lot of deities willing to team up to take out rule-breakers,

 
   

Quote from: robertliguori on October 07, 2024, 11:46:04 PMD&D rules usually remember to, when they go genre-bendy, to say explicitly "This technological item is to be treated as magic with regards to rarity and mass-production; your wizard can't just take a visit to modern Earth and then mass-Fabricate crude oil and fertilizer into ANFO.", but plenty of settings don't do that, and plenty of settings technically let you do thinks like Major Create, e.g., a giant mass of plutonium.  (Which you might even cast Implosion on for funsies.)  If that is a possibility, then a Connecticut Yankee might end up being an existential threat, not for what they can do, but for what others in the world can get from them, and what effects that might cause in the world.  In our world, nuclear proliferation was limited by the logistical difficulties of getting enriched radioisotypes, building and delivering the weapon, and dealing with the world powers pushing in your shit for trying.  In a D&D world, where you have a lot more people who are willing to kick over the civilizational apple-cart to get at those hated orcs/dwarves/dark elves/other people who you know would nuke you first if they could/etc., and with plenty of wizards who are already drunk enough to try magically breeding owls and bears together for no damn reason, there's no reason to think that MAD would keep a lid on things.

I more or less agree with this, any setting where you have fairly open-ended magic and sentient beings operating in that magic is bound to become a suicide pact technology.

Or in Nick Bostrom words "If all it took to create a significant nuclear explosion was to throw sand in the microwave, civilization would have been destroyed shortly after the distribution of microwaves and those ingredients."

Definitely plague monsters is one.

Another is (3e+) Orcs - faster breeding, stronger, hostile. In the Midnight setting they have indeed largely replaced the humans et al.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on October 07, 2024, 10:26:42 PMHaving read a bit from Nick Bostrom and the fiction author Peter Watts, I've been thinking on creatures that embody or are existential threats, be that creatures or phenomenon that are on an order of magnitude more dangerous to us than other beings.

I would not class creatures like a Red Dragons (or any other type) as such because ultimately even their cupidty can be sated, even if only for a time.

That's a question of the setting, as it depends on a lot of factors like reproduction and behavior.

For example, I ran an apocalyptic fantasy campaign called "Dawn of Fire" inspired partly by the movie Reign of Fire. Faerun underwent an apocalypse where dragons were spurred to spread and wipe out the world.

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dawnoffire/

Humans could easily be an existential threat to other species, as could orcs. Those are common themes in fantasy fiction. It depends on a lot of factors specific to the game world.

Quote from: robertliguori on October 07, 2024, 11:46:04 PMOld-school spawning incorporeal undead.

Sons of Kyuss, in particular, are famously reproductive.

I always thought doppelgangers should be considered an existential threat

My default setting starts in the aftermath of an existential threat (it wiped out 99.9% of the global population... and only failed on the last 0.1% because someone set it off early in the hopes of saving those few).

There are plenty of remnants of that apocalypse that would be more than happy to finish the job. Most notably The Shadow... the echo of the Demon Emperor (a Luciferian analogue) who so hated existence that he annihilated himself so that his essence could become the force that creates the undead and other nightmares meant to obliterate the guttering flames of creation.

Less overtly, the Darwinian struggle between mankind and the Beastmen they had once created as slaves, and with the mutants created among the few survivors of the aforementioned Cataclysm who now seek to breed out the race of Men also qualifies as existential threats... particularly when the world's human population numbers maybe 20 million (relative to 30 million beastmen and 10 million mutants).

Existential threats make good looming threats for campaign settings. They help explain the need for heroes.

My setting includes a foundational myth of The First Heroes; a disparate band of beings who saved the world from the first existential crisis.

There are also historic events (including some in living memory) swayed for the better by the involvement of similar bands who overcame threats to civilization too big for them to handle individually.

Thus, if times are looking bleak, and a band of adventures turns up, they are seen as a sign of hope and aren't generally seen as a threat by rulers because Big Damned Heroes emerging to save civilization from doom is literally baked into the culture and mythology of the setting.

The three strong examples I can think of in the regular monster manual for D&D would be the ones that essentially brainwash their victims; beholders, aboleths, and mind flayers.  Anything that can operate from the shadows, surreptitiously increase their influence and strength, and can facilitate indirect attacks is inherently an existential threat.  I feel that an evil GM using some solid thinking while playing these as written could turn any D&D game into a fantasy apocalypse with very little likelihood the party would be able to stop it in time no matter what level they were or how well they are equipped. 

My all time favorite published bad guy in any RP is dragons from Shadowrun.  So much so that I have these kinds of enemies in every game I run now, even if they never take center stage.  They add so much flavor to the game experience.  The concept of super powerful bad guys indirectly waging war with each other via economics and influence is just awesome for games.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on October 07, 2024, 10:26:42 PMHaving read a bit from Nick Bostrom and the fiction author Peter Watts, I've been thinking on creatures that embody or are existential threats, be that creatures or phenomenon that are on an order of magnitude more dangerous to us than other beings.

I would not class creatures like a Red Dragons (or any other type) as such because ultimately even their cupidty can be sated, even if only for a time.

Nor something like the Tarasque, because again ultimately while it is the "apocalypse beast" it really is more a temporary end to civilization within a frame of time (at best) which is hardly the same as being able to put an end to human existence.

Nor even a evil deity, because often while they may be omnipotent relative to mortals, they still answer to and are accountable to peers equal or greater than them.

-

potency, size, or how evil something is really does not determine if something is an existential threat. john carpenter's The Thing is unlikely to win a straight up death match against anything I just listed, but I'd put actual money on something like that finally putting the nail in Forgotten Realm's coffin before any thing else managed to do that mismanaged game-setting in.

Not that this post is exclusive to D&D's settings or it's monster, but using them as a springboard to the general topic and what I don't consider an existential threat.

I'm surprised it doesn't come up more often, but I've thought about making zombies contagious like in most zombie flicks. Walking Dead style campaign for a fantasy setting.
It would make zombies much more dangerous class of opponents if any hit that deals HP damage causes the victim to turn into a zombie. Especially if the contagnion is, for whatever reason, resistant to magical cures.

Brain-Eating Zombies from Hackmaster 4e. Any bite, save vs. death or become one, but you don't realize it.
Can only be completely destroyed by burning them. The fumes from the burning turns you into one. Also, they can't be turned.

They should overrun pretty much of any fantasy nation by the time anyone figures out what is going on.

Nuke the site from orbit. Only way to be sure.

Quote from: Tristan on October 08, 2024, 04:47:04 PMBrain-Eating Zombies from Hackmaster 4e. Any bite, save vs. death or become one, but you don't realize it.
Can only be completely destroyed by burning them. The fumes from the burning turns you into one. Also, they can't be turned.

They should overrun pretty much of any fantasy nation by the time anyone figures out what is going on.

Nuke the site from orbit. Only way to be sure.

Yea. The reason more games don't is probably because it would quickly turn the campaign into post-zombie apocalpse. Good if that's the kind of campaign you're going for. Not so good if you don't want a random encounter to overwhelm the whole campaign.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 08, 2024, 05:37:56 PM

Quote from: Tristan on October 08, 2024, 04:47:04 PMBrain-Eating Zombies from Hackmaster 4e. Any bite, save vs. death or become one, but you don't realize it.
Can only be completely destroyed by burning them. The fumes from the burning turns you into one. Also, they can't be turned.

They should overrun pretty much of any fantasy nation by the time anyone figures out what is going on.

Nuke the site from orbit. Only way to be sure.

Yea. The reason more games don't is probably because it would quickly turn the campaign into post-zombie apocalpse. Good if that's the kind of campaign you're going for. Not so good if you don't want a random encounter to overwhelm the whole campaign.

Probably works better with optional rules (or an entire system) that distinguishes between physical and non-physical hit points. If all it takes is one point of damage the players need to be able to tell what hit is just some fatigue or luck or divine favor being whittled away and what is a bruise (no skin broken) or results in an actual infectable wound.

For 4E I'd say no check is needed before the target is bloodied (which mechanically is the first point a real, though minor, wound is scored.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2024, 06:54:08 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 08, 2024, 05:37:56 PM

Quote from: Tristan on October 08, 2024, 04:47:04 PMBrain-Eating Zombies from Hackmaster 4e. Any bite, save vs. death or become one, but you don't realize it.
Can only be completely destroyed by burning them. The fumes from the burning turns you into one. Also, they can't be turned.

They should overrun pretty much of any fantasy nation by the time anyone figures out what is going on.

Yea. The reason more games don't is probably because it would quickly turn the campaign into post-zombie apocalpse. Good if that's the kind of campaign you're going for. Not so good if you don't want a random encounter to overwhelm the whole campaign.

Probably works better with optional rules (or an entire system) that distinguishes between physical and non-physical hit points. If all it takes is one point of damage the players need to be able to tell what hit is just some fatigue or luck or divine favor being whittled away and what is a bruise (no skin broken) or results in an actual infectable wound.

Yeah. I think the zombie survival genre isn't well suited to the D&D combat system.

Hordes of low-hp mooks like traditional horror zombies tend to be boring for D&D combat, plus there is the damage problem mentioned.

But the topic wasn't D&D specific. There are plenty of good zombie survival RPGs.

Grey Goo

The standard model (that just uses biological matter) will consume a human being in hours, the heat released by the nanomachines consuming cells and replicating inside a human body will cause a destructive rise in body temperature that will kill in minutes. An entire world's biosphere will be consumed within a week and a half.

I'd only use this in a campaign if I wanted to end the game and never resurrect it again.

Equally terrifying for fans of body horror is the transhumanist concept that a sufficiently advanced biotech culture will see humans as not food, but spare parts and peripheral units for its technology to use. Literally reducing our biosphere and us to just cogs in a biological machine.