A problem that frequently comes up for me in world building is religion. It's a tricky thing to do well under the best of circumstances and can end up being a huge time sink if you find yourself wrapped around that particular axle.

However D&D seems to include it's own particular pitfall on this issue, the Cleric. The cleric as a class, particularly in older editions but still to a degree in 5th, seems to assume a monotheistic pseudo-Christian religion. I don't think we have to go into how because it seems to be fairly well established.

How do you reconcile an apparently polytheistic world with the chief religious class implying monotheism? An easy out, that I'm considering for a setting I'm working on at the moment, is monolatry. Namely that the culture the PC's are likely to come from acknowledges many gods but exclusively worships one.

Another thing issue that can arise is reconciling the polytheism of most game worlds. What should it actually look like when you really do have a multitude of gods actively involved? This of course is influenced by just how active you assume the gods to be in your world and how they interact with it.

How do the gods interact with one another? How does that effect the game world? How would one establish a position of doubt in such a world, if that were even possible?

Thoughts? How do you typically handle these questions? What particular issues do you have? Interesting solutions? Think it's all a non issue and it would be much better just to shut the fuck up and roll the dice?

Jealous gods.

I've never really understood this argument/problem.

It seems to be me that while most cultures had many gods, most places did have one main god that they worshiped above others, even if they acknowledged the existence of others. Indeed, I think most gods were local gods.

The ones that spread, did so because the local worshipers went out and conquered other places, bringing their god with them, and often merging it with the local gods of conquered places.

You see something similar with saints in the Catholic Church.

And given you are talking about a setting where gods are not a matter of faith, but real, tangible things that provide power and other things, I'd have to think they'd be jealous of each other, competing for worshipers, not co-operating.

The trouble I think is that too many people take neopaganism and such as being what ancient religion was like, when in reality it's modern day new age claptrap. There were never coherent, co-operative pantheons, there were several competing gods, even in the same culture, even as city-states and regions and tribes within that same culture competed.

I think the cleric works fine as it is. Consider your Greek or Roman who might propitiate any number of gods, including "bad" ones - often to appease them to leave you alone or not to plague them. The cleric works just fine as a "favored" of an individual god, who would respect all gods of the collective faiths, but would have special knowledge and favor of an individual god.

I am not very interested in religion and mostly handwave it with standard DnD stereotypes.  Players whose PC is a member of a church is free to make up their own tenants if they like.  Nobody has ever done much.  The cleric of Bahamut in the game I ran today has not cared much beyond declaring that the Earth Dragon cult of the Slavers is a corrupted abomination of dragon worship that must be annihilated.

I don't see how the cleric class requires or implies monotheism. Maybe I missed that one.

Clerics are the champions of a god, who may belong to a related pantheon and the clerics relationship to his rival clerics usually mirrors the relationship of the rival gods.

AKA, in my Mazes & Minotaurs game, the priests and their temples are both allied and rivals, mirroring the machinations of their gods in Olympus.

Quote from: Spinachcat;824031I don't see how the cleric class requires or implies monotheism. Maybe I missed that one.

Its kind of baked into the vanilla spell selection where all good clerics got one set of spells and all evil clerics got a different (in some cases mirror imaged) set of spells. The lack of variety in spell choice by religion in a number of versions of D&D could be considered to imply a setting that is not pantheistic. I think the reversal of some spells and titles for Chaotic/Evil clerics would seem to better support a dualistic religion where there is a struggle between good and evil than a monotheistic religion. Something like Persian Manichaeism.

When I ran D&D I used pantheistic, pagan religions with pantheons and clerics as priests of a specific deity in the pantheon with some minor variation in spells by deity. Because that made more sense to me than the vanilla all good clerics get the same exact spell list. Then I moved on to Runequest which already had spells by deity and pantheons already worked up.

Option 1: drop the cleric and add its spells to MUs. My preferred one.

Option 2: drop the assumption that they are clerics of particular gods and make them clerics of the pantheon. The individual spells would then be prayers to/blessings from individual gods within the pantheon. The monotheistic equivalent would be prayers to saints/angels/etc. Religious conflicts in this case would be between pantheons, or between gods and demons/devils/daemons/cthonians/etc.

Option 3: customize the spell lists by deity served.

Option 4: go monotheistic.

Quote from: Bren;824048Its kind of baked into the vanilla spell selection where all good clerics got one set of spells and all evil clerics got a different (in some cases mirror imaged) set of spells.

I'd love to hear Old Geezer's take on this issue.

Someone call forth the Geezer!!!

Quote from: Bren;824048The lack of variety in spell choice by religion in a number of versions of D&D could be considered to imply a setting that is not pantheistic.

I can see that. D&D 2e introduced Domains which did somewhat differentiate clerics and gods. I missed that in 4e and I had hoped 5e clerics would be much more defined by their gods than we have seen.

The problem of course is that some gods have "better" spells than others, leading to min-maxing.

Looking at the RAW, I see what you mean. It's just been so long for me since I didn't differentiate spell lists by gods in my OD&D settings.

Quote from: Bren;824048I think the reversal of some spells and titles for Chaotic/Evil clerics would seem to better support a dualistic religion where there is a struggle between good and evil than a monotheistic religion. Something like Persian Manichaeism.

That's an interesting idea.

I think you have to say Old Geezer's name three times in the dark over burning copies of the 4th edition core books to summon him.

Besides that I often just end up axing the cleric and rolling the relevant spells in the M-U list and making the cleric a background or something. However I like the idea of a dedicated divine caster, I'm just not sure I like it as written.

Quote from: Arkansan;823999However D&D seems to include it's own particular pitfall on this issue, the Cleric. The cleric as a class, particularly in older editions but still to a degree in 5th, seems to assume a monotheistic pseudo-Christian religion. I don't think we have to go into how because it seems to be fairly well established.

I am aware of the elements of the cleric that are grounded in the Christianity of Western Europe. But the class never felt to beholden to a pseudo-Christian religion to me. If anything that more a problem of the implicit society setup by each edition rather than the class itself.

And ever since 2nd edition AD&D, the referee has had the option of tailoring the cleric to a particular religion. Spheres, Domains, etc.

Quote from: Arkansan;823999How do you reconcile an apparently polytheistic world with the chief religious class implying monotheism? An easy out, that I'm considering for a setting I'm working on at the moment, is monolatry. Namely that the culture the PC's are likely to come from acknowledges many gods but exclusively worships one.

I heard it called Henothesism. Perhaps the Pundit can resolve that one as it is his real life specialty.

Honestly tho, get my Majestic Wilderlands. I ran the campaign for 30 years and dealt with the same questions you are asking. You can see how I resolved.

The short version?

Since multiple religions gain very obvious supernatural powers i.e. divine spells, henotheism is almost universal through all the cultures of my Majestic Wilderlands. All gods are rea, but your own cultures gods are the special ones you worship.

Some culture worship one deity specifically. But most have a specific pantheon they worship. The most similar thing in our own history is situation with religion in the 1st century BC.

Quote from: Arkansan;823999Another thing issue that can arise is reconciling the polytheism of most game worlds. What should it actually look like when you really do have a multitude of gods actively involved? This of course is influenced by just how active you assume the gods to be in your world and how they interact with it.

It depends on your cosmology. In mine there are only ten major deities but they have many faces. The Skandian Vikings worship Thor the Thunderer along with his wife Sif. The Ionian Horse Barbarians worship Mantriv the Skylord and his wife Dannu, the Lady of Plenty. Thor and Mantriv, Sif and Dannu are the same being. If you compared how the Skandian worship the pair to the how the Ionian do you will find many fundamental similarities but their are also many specific differences. Most of which are a result of the two culture having different histories and living in very different environments.

Quote from: Arkansan;823999How do the gods interact with one another? How does that effect the game world? How would one establish a position of doubt in such a world, if that were even possible?

The way I handle it is that the gods (good, neutral, or evil) operate through faith, signs, and portents. They allow the grant of divine spells and powers (like paladins). But they don't interfere with free will. The bulk of their involvement is guidances to how to live life and it is done through their priesthood i.e. the clerics.

However when it comes to supernatural menaces (like demons, etc) they are allowed to intervene more directly hence Rangers, Paladins, and Warlocks.

Quote from: Arkansan;823999Thoughts? How do you typically handle these questions? What particular issues do you have? Interesting solutions? Think it's all a non issue and it would be much better just to shut the fuck up and roll the dice?

You resolve by describing your setting in natural languages and then figure out how to apply the rules. And if the rules don't do what you want, you add stuff. If the game gets too bent out of shape, you find another game that your group will play and that fits better with what you are trying to do.

However with D&D, it not that hard. It is a little work. If you want to see an example get my Majestic Wilderlands.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/68864/The-Majestic-Wilderlands?term=majestic+wilde

If want to read about how this stuff goes down in my campaign you can read these posts by one of my players. This players is in the thick of religion as he is a paladin of the High Lord Veritas, the God of Truth.

http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/search/label/Majestic%20Wilderlands

Quote from: Spinachcat;824054I'd love to hear Old Geezer's take on this issue.

Someone call forth the Geezer!!!

A proper summoning requires the offering of beer...or some other offering that you don't want to know about...you know, I suggest you just offer up the beer.

QuoteThe problem of course is that some gods have "better" spells than others, leading to min-maxing.

I wouldn't expect that all gods would make equally useful choices for worship. And that lack of equality would go double if we are looking at usefulness for some sort of adventurers. The goddess of grain is really important to the tribe or nation, critically important for the farmers, but not much use at all to a wandering tomb robber. Rather than a problem with diversity of spells by religion, I see that as an advantage. And I would expect most players would select from a "useful" set of deities for the type of play or the type of adventures the group intends on having.

QuoteLooking at the RAW, I see what you mean. It's just been so long for me since I didn't differentiate spell lists by gods in my OD&D settings.

Yeah, differentiation has always made more sense to me. It is one of the things nearly all DMs I knew included way back in the day.

QuoteThat's an interesting idea.

Obviously not original, but it is kind of cool and it is a bit different than the monotheistic view point that most people who play RPGs grew up with. So it seems strange without being quite as alien as real pantheistic religions are to most of us. And it plays into the good vs. evil dichotomy we see in some fiction and some RPG settings.

Estar I will check out the Majestic Wilderlands, I've eyeballed getting it for a while now anyway.  On Henotheism vs Monolatry, Monolatry more asserts that there are other gods but that your god is even more powerful and relevant than the other who are likely to be derided. Henotheism is a simple acknowledgment of others while chiefly worshiping only one. Well, that's my understanding anyway.

Bren I rather like the idea of a dualistic monotheism for a game world. It would make a lot of these issues non-issues and is different enough from the standard approach to be interesting. It would take a little bit of work to explain the multiple player races in this context but no more than coming up with separate gods for them.

Quote from: Arkansan;824058Estar I will check out the Majestic Wilderlands, I've eyeballed getting it for a while now anyway.  On Henotheism vs Monolatry, Monolatry more asserts that there are other gods but that your god is even more powerful and relevant than the other who are likely to be derided. Henotheism is a simple acknowledgment of others while chiefly worshiping only one. Well, that's my understanding anyway.

Ah I see, learn something new everyday. I think you will find the Majestic Wilderlands informative. I try to explain why I do what I do at various points. And I try show how things work via classes and rules rather than just rely on a wall of text in the setting section.

Quote from: Spinachcat;824031I don't see how the cleric class requires or implies monotheism. Maybe I missed that one.

People confuse pseudo-Christian with monotheistic.

D&D assumes pseudo-Christian. That is,  proselytizing, moral philosophy backed by a religious hierarchy that preaches against evil and promotes an eschatology. Holy symbols, holy water, and turning undead don't make much sense in a classical polytheistic cultural context. Hell, the alignment system doesn't make sense in that context.

However, it's possible to run a pseudo-Christian polytheism. Look at the main religion in A Game of Thrones.