Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYeah, I was rather thinking that Middle Earth might be more of a Bad Penny or Golden Handcuffs than a Holy Grail. In fact, for all the hype they may generate, I'm ever increasingly of the opinion that licensed properties -- especially the really big names -- are more of a liability than a coup.

It's a funny industry.  By all accounts, Serenity was a massive seller, and that is despite the fact that the system seems to be universally regarded as "Meh".  The TV series was cancelled mid-way through the first season and the movie was considered a box-office flop.  On the other hand, Lord of the Rings was a massive, massive box office success... but how did the Decipher RPG fare?

Quote from: Tyberious FunkIt's a funny industry.  By all accounts, Serenity was a massive seller, and that is despite the fact that the system seems to be universally regarded as "Meh".  The TV series was cancelled mid-way through the first season and the movie was considered a box-office flop.  On the other hand, Lord of the Rings was a massive, massive box office success... but how did the Decipher RPG fare?

Which proves that if you want to really judge how well an RPG license is going to do, you have to judge:

1. How much of the fandom of the license is proportionately geeky.

2. How intense they are as fanatics.

So Serenity was the perfect storm: the fans are unbelievably fanatical; and a huge proportion of that fandom was already hardcore geekiness-inclined.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo Serenity was the perfect storm: the fans are unbelievably fanatical; and a huge proportion of that fandom was already hardcore geekiness-inclined.

It didn't hurt that the cast of characters seemed to have been cribbed from a Traveller campaign.  It was an RPG waiting to happen.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat would make me both happy and sad. =

!i!

I'm still unsure about T5 as it is.  I've heard very mixed reports as to the quality of T4, especially as regards erratta and omissions and such, and handing it's sequal to a company infamous for it's less than stellar editing, well . . .

Yeah I can see your trepidation.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt didn't hurt that the cast of characters seemed to have been cribbed from a Traveller campaign. It was an RPG waiting to happen.
!i!

The flipside to that argument is that a number of perfectly adequate games already existed for playing in the Serenity/Firefly universe.
 
I would tentatively suggest that Serenity was a very successful publication, but not a very successful RPG.  It seems that quite a large percentage of the sales seem to have come from fans of the series rather than roleplayers.
 
It's a shame, in a way.  MWP presumably made plenty of money from the venture (and good luck to them).  But if it had been a better RPG, I think the game would have greater longevity and with that, more supplements to build upon the extended 'verse.  Instead, it will probably be remembered as a "blip" on the roleplaying scene and consigned to be little more than a collectible for serious Browncoats.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhich proves that if you want to really judge how well an RPG license is going to do, you have to judge:

1. How much of the fandom of the license is proportionately geeky.

2. How intense they are as fanatics.
 ...

Of course, you also need a company that is interested in taking the game seriously.

There is no reason why a 'Lord of the Rings' RPG couldn't have been huge, especially if it had been pushed while the movies were still coming out.  Long before the movies, in the 1980s, ICE's 'Middle-earth Roleplaying' was the second most successful FRPG in the world (and even more popular than D&D in some places, like Sweden).

Decipher produced a rushed product, and then failed utterly to support it.  Their 'LotR' rpg was perhaps the most incompetently run license of all time.

Quote from: QuireAnd then again, maybe they're drawn out because the 'holy grail' is _THE_ RPG. It's difficult to imagine WotC licensing D&D, but if 'holy grail' is taken at face value, it's the best candidate.

The thing which stops me from believing this argument is that I'm sure that the "Holy Grail" is meant to be a setting for RQ - certainly, that's the context where I first saw Sprange talking about it.

There's no point licensing D&D if you're not going to use the system. And while you could make a sourcebook for running one of the D&D settings under the RQ system, that hardly qualifies as a holy grail. Just look at the "favourite setting" thread: while heaps of people love D&D, there's really no consensus as to which setting is "best".

T5 is being written entirely by Marc Miller and his apostles.  Maybe Mongoose is on tap to publish it, but I'd expect Steve Jackson to take a crack at it first.  I've heard that SJG's second biggest seller after Munchkin is GURPS Traveller. Besides, I doubt Miller would go to a UK company to publish anything.  And as much as I dig Trav, I don't think any sane person would call it a Holy Grail.  Steve Jackson and several other parties are already producing Traveller material.

I'm thinking it's going to be something like "Brisco County Jr."

I don't know Matt well enough to accurately guess what one man's personal Holy Grail is.

Who knows, maybe he has read Ursula K.  Le Guin's Earthsea saga one thousand and one times.

Alien Vs. Predator?

Tales from the City, the RPG.

Laugh while you can.

Quote from: AkrasiaOf course, you also need a company that is interested in taking the game seriously.

There is no reason why a 'Lord of the Rings' RPG couldn't have been huge, especially if it had been pushed while the movies were still coming out.  Long before the movies, in the 1980s, ICE's 'Middle-earth Roleplaying' was the second most successful FRPG in the world (and even more popular than D&D in some places, like Sweden).

Decipher produced a rushed product, and then failed utterly to support it.  Their 'LotR' rpg was perhaps the most incompetently run license of all time.

You're absolutely right; they DID fail to support it. The situation was odd. I mean, they barely advertised the game, yet it still sold extremely well (if I remember correctly). But..! They quickly cancel the game because the CODA system LotR just didn't sell as well as the CCG when it came out (how could it?), so they decided to focus all their energies on the card game.

I always thought that was a mistake. Even though card games tend to sell better than RPGs, I have this nagging suspicion that while a LotR CCG sold better than the RPG at the time of the movies, a LotR RPG would have enjoyed more LONG-TERM success when memories of the movie would fade.

CODA LotR was a pretty book, but was organized badly. It was treated like a coffee table book rather than a game, and that was a huge mistake. Either d20 or the system used for WFRP 2e would have been a good fit for the system, I think. Of course, the CODA system wasn't bad either. It just needed some more work. This game could have been big, but Decipher missed the boat on this one. They were so close.

Quote from: WarthurThe thing which stops me from believing this argument is that I'm sure that the "Holy Grail" is meant to be a setting for RQ - certainly, that's the context where I first saw Sprange talking about it.

Hmm - you've got a good point there, Warthur.

This from Sprange on RPG.net, 13th June:

      Originally Posted by vivsavage
Can you at least tell us whether this Holy Grail license will be a RuneQuest or d20-based OGL game?

   Umm, no, not really

We haven't made any decisions about that yet, and there are arguments for both RQ and D20. However, we'll likely take the third option.


Which is...very intriguing.

- Q

Capitol Critters.

Thinking more about it...maybe it is Dune, after all.

It qualifies as a 'holy grail' in terms of something that's been seen or owned from time-to-time, but has always slipped away...

This from 'Matthew' (Colville? Grau?) in the same thread:

   The Herbert estate wanted more for the license from WotC than they wanted from Last Unicorn. For Last Unicorn, $75k is enough to ensure the property's going to be your highest priority. For WotC, charging so much that you guarantee they're going to make it priority #1 means charging a LOT more than 75 grand.

If I were to bet, I'd bet it was Dune. Because the Mongoose guys contacted us after WotC backed away from the table, asking for Brian Herbert's contact info.

The toys and games license for Harry Potter, btw, is already with Hasbro - Rowling, however, is reportedly very against the idea of an RPG. "RPGS rot kids brains," according to her. Maybe she and Uncle Ronnie could get together?

- Q

The Flumps.