WotC Scout, Barbarian.
Iron Kingdoms Ranger.
Midnight Wildlander.
Conan Barbarian, Nomad, Borderer.
Black Company Ranger, Scout.

Hmm. Feel free to post synopses of those; I'm not going out and buying anything...good recs though.

No problem, I just thought that posting some "prior art" could be helpful. In the big wide world of D20 I always like to check references. Any books of those you own or should I post all of them? Might take a while, though...

I used to own two or three of them but I have sold all but the core and a couple modules I really like. Too many books was a big part of my burnout last time I was heavy into D&D.

So, you can consider me someone who knows the system fairly well, but doesn't have a lot of references, though I did have a lot at one time. So you can save yourself some time skipping basics but details are helpful.

By the way, thanks for your help with this! It'll be a good discussion even if I stick with something like my original idea, I think.

Can I ask why you're opposed to multi-classing? No judgement from me (since a core class should be able to hold up for 20 levels), but a Scout/Fighter or a Scout/Barbarian might hold up really well.

It feels a bit wonky. Ranger spells are one of the weaker spell sets in the game though, so getting rid of them won't destroy the class. There used to be a non-casting variant in 3.0, but I don't know what's happened to it in 3.5.

If you want to get rid of the casting, the wild empathy and the animal companion then you should _not_ replace them with feats. Lots of feats is the fighter schtick, not the ranger one. I'd leave the skills and everything alone for now and just focus on swapping those three things out for other stuff.

Some suggestions:

Swap animal companion out for distracting attack from the PH2. The basic idea is that the ranger can make an attack that distracts the target so that they count as flatfooted until the end of the turn (IIRC, it might just be until the next attack). They get this ability at 4th level. It's also designed to be a substitution for animal companion, so it's a good swap.

Fast movement replaces wild empathy.

I'd give them wildshape (as a druid four levels lower than their ranger class level) to replace spellcasting, but if you don't want to do that, then raise their HD to a d10, give them medium armour (and let their abilities work in it), and leave their skills alone.

Edit: I really hate that last option, but it's all I can think of right now. It strikes me as fiddly.

That last option is where I was at more or less, Pseudo, and it feels a bit fiddly to me too.

---------

Still considering the alternatives, here's where I'm at with the original idea:

- Dump spellcasting

- Swap Wild Empathy for Fast Movement

- Swap Animal Companion at 4th for Uncanny Dodge at 4th and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 8th

- Drop skills to 4

- Leave hit die at d8 (this is a change)

- Bump to medium armor, allowing use of combat styles etc. with it on (though you still have to suffer from armor check etc.)

- Change combat styles so you get the bonus at 2nd, 6th, 12th (instead of 11th), and 18th. (This is to deal with the front-loading issue, as was lowering the hit die - now you get something instead of all those spells at high level.)

Archery tree: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Swarm of Arrows

Two Weapon tree: Two Weapon, Improved Two Weapon, Greater Two Weapon, Perfect Two Weapon

How's that all look?

-------------------

Also:

Hypothetical contemplated third tree for "bring it" types: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Dire Charge, Great Cleave. This seems to me not as good as the first two - any ideas for improving it? Or is my impression mistaken?

I'd keep the skills where they are. Because of the granularity of skills in D&D and the MAD of Rangers, you're not giving them that many - no more than 6 or 7. That sounds like a lot until you realise that Rangers need Move Silently, Hide, Survival, and Spot to fulfill just the most basic parts of their role, and should really have Heal, Knowledge (nature) and Listen for a full package.

Uncanny Dodge + Fast Movement are collectively a good replacement for Animal Companion and Wild Empathy (where UD and FM individually aren't as good as AC, but are much better than WE).

Otherwise, it looks good for replacing spell casting. Though you're going to have to watch that the power attacking Ranger variant doesn't outshine fighter characters.

Huh. That's cool...I guess the thing that bugs me about 6 skills is that I feel it intrudes on the Rogue's turf too much. Of course, at high level sneak attack is freakin' killer against 75% of foes, so maybe it's not that bad, but I guess I liked the 3.0 thing where the Rogue was clearly set out as the premier skill class.

I guess though you have a point - stretching the combat styles and adding an extra step, plus the bump to medium armor, seems like a fair trade for the spells, or pretty close, by itself.

Rogues still are. The trick is to remember the ordinary attribute distros of various classes. Intelligence is a dump stat for Rangers - lower priority than even Charisma. By contrast, Int is the second most important stat for the Rogue (after Dex). That means Rangers tend to pull in 6 or 7 skillpoints a level, while the Rogue is pulling in 11 or 12. The Rogue has almost double the number of skills, plus a much larger skill list, and fewer "must-have" skills (MS and Hide are really it).

As a side note, I should point out that I absolutely figured my varient would step all over the Fighter's toes. Primarily because I ignored him, and also because I know Fighters use lots of Feats, and that's what I suggested for this.

I just kind of thought it was a given, really.

Also, my solution wasn't the best possible, by any means, but if the Fighter slot is replaced by this one, you won't notice anything wrong. (Like, if there are 4 or 5 party slots, and they go NRanger, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, or something.)