Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 02, 2022, 03:09:02 AM
Do me a favour? Have a quick glance at the PDF primer we have done for the game:

I checked it out, looks pretty cool. Just a bunch of archetypal badass women fighting against the urban/corporate empire, with no references to the "birth sex" of those badasses.

If the Primer were the whole game, this conversation may not even have started.

The OP leads with "the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female," which is what some people have mentioned objecting to, for reasons well detailed above. If that's not in the rules, please do let us know, but either way the Primer's contents isn't really the issue.

Rob objected to supporting content produced by Alison Cybe, which also has nothing to do with the contents of the Primer.

Edit: I'll go a step further, FYI: I thought the game looked cool enough that were it not for the virtue signaling thrown in on top, I, a heterosexual dude, would be tempted to give it a whirl.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 02, 2022, 02:29:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 02, 2022, 07:04:47 AM
Granted, you have to be deep into woke (or anti-woke) nonsense to realize that this is technically woke, and I can easily ignore this as just a cosmetic element (want to say your character has a mechanical arm with no special benefits? Sure! Have one for free!), But it just stuck out to me as kinda silly the way it's presented.

That and what I mentioned earlier were the only weird bits I found, though.

A lot of the promo images have these huge vast mega structure cities in their backgrounds. Who built them? The shaved blue-haired fems obviously didn't.

Damn, getting modded on the Mongoose forums really made your pee-pee feel small, didn't it? No wonder you are so butthurt over it.

Quote from: Horace on March 11, 2022, 08:51:52 PMAre the developers of Norse descent? Are they practicing neopagans? I thought the Left condemned this sort of cultural appropriation.

Its only appropriation till one of them does it. Then it is... Inclusiveness! Or some new made up magic word.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe... 

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

I would say there are more subtle red flags, and this has already been brought up. The way they're describing Fenrir isn't anything like Fenrir from Norse mythology, and it reeks of not knowing anything about Norse mythology and certainly not respecting it.

What you can tell they know is that 'Fenrir' is the bad guy in Norse mythology, but nothing more about it. And for then capitalism is the greatest evil. So they've set up socialism vs. capitalism with shield maidens vs Fenrir. So political biases are pretty clear. And the thing is, you've already got a platform for that with Cyberpunk. If you want to include transgendered characters, and have the big bads being corporate behemoths, all the while having various cybernetic augmentations, you can just take the existing Cyberpunk settings and you really don't need to change anything.

So why put this veneer of Norse mythology onto it?

About the only thing you can say for them is they're not taking an existing property and destroying it, they are still creating something new - so credit where credit is due. But it's also obvious the designers are SJWs.

Yeah if you wanted to have evil capitalism as enemy you'd probably have to use... dwarves. And that open another can of wyrms.

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 04:24:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe... 

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

  My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.  It is like when dudes like Krugman and the like bitch non stop about capitalism and wealth inequality do so because doing so has made them multi millionaires.....

Quote from: oggsmash on April 03, 2022, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 04:24:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe... 

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

  My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.  It is like when dudes like Krugman and the like bitch non stop about capitalism and wealth inequality do so because doing so has made them multi millionaires.....

This is just a silly gotcha criticism of anti-capitalism that assumes that trade is an inherent and exclusive function of capitalism, like exchanging goods for some type of currency didn't exist for thousands of years before capitalism as it's conceptualized today existed (private ownership of the means of production using wage worker for profit), or like market socialism (like worker co-ops) isn't a thing. And also ignores the fact that even if you have issues with a system, and we were to accept the notion that trade is exclusively capitalist as true, if that system is all you realistically have available to subsist, you still have to participate in it even if you oppose it in part or in whole.

It's basically "You exchanged goods for money once, therefore you can't criticize the (presumed) exploitative nature of a system built around the relentless search for profit and the giant corporations it spans, its wasteful consumer culture, wage slavery, etc." This is made more ridiculous if the goods exchanged are things you produced yourself using your own means of production (as indi publishers* could), as opposed to selling stuff other people produced at a markup while paying them as little as possible.

*Which granted, doesn't apply to Mongoose, but it's entirely doable if you want to publish your own stuff.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2022, 11:51:02 AM
This is just a silly gotcha criticism of anti-capitalism that assumes that trade is an inherent and exclusive function of capitalism, like exchanging goods for some type of currency didn't exist for thousands of years before capitalism as it's conceptualized today existed (private ownership of the means of production using wage worker for profit), or like market socialism (like worker co-ops) isn't a thing. And also ignores the fact that even if you have issues with a system, and we were to accept the notion that trade is exclusively capitalist as true, if that system is all you realistically have available to subsist, you still have to participate in it even if you oppose it in part or in whole.

  "Capitalism" is the most vague and ill-defined term in this whole debate, followed closely by "socialism."

QuoteMy favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.

Now look I'm like anti-democracy but I still vote. You do what you can living in harsh foreign world I'm not gonna start suicidal monarchist revolution just to signalize my purity, sorry bro
Obviously if you earn multi-millions on it then one should expect from self-called socialists to well show they are not hypocritical assholes. But as most RPG designers just earn enough to live... I guess this is within realm of tolerance.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 01, 2022, 09:18:52 AM
I absolutely do take responsibility - I just wanted to be transparent as to the process involved.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 04:55:13 PM
Well technically, the thread was deleted. And a whole new thread was posted to start from.

I wonder why.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

You know why.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 06:55:49 PM
One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

You jest, but mythologically speaking Odin was trans, so I'm really curious as to how they're going to address that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 02, 2022, 06:29:04 AM
This is in her own signature on RPG.net:

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community."

I find that pretty offensive as well and trivializing such a serious subject (in the real world).

Did I miss the sarcasm here? Because this is a ridiculously bad faith take.

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 04:52:55 AM
So why put this veneer of Norse mythology onto it?

Why not?

Quote from: oggsmash on April 03, 2022, 09:47:32 AM
My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.

After delving into their ineloquent critiques I've come to the conclusion that they're not complaining about Capitalism but abuse of power and can't differentiate between the two.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on April 04, 2022, 10:32:57 AM

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community."

I find that pretty offensive as well and trivializing such a serious subject (in the real world).

There was no sarcasm...

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2022, 11:51:02 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 03, 2022, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 04:24:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe... 

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

  My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.  It is like when dudes like Krugman and the like bitch non stop about capitalism and wealth inequality do so because doing so has made them multi millionaires.....

This is just a silly gotcha criticism of anti-capitalism that assumes that trade is an inherent and exclusive function of capitalism, like exchanging goods for some type of currency didn't exist for thousands of years before capitalism as it's conceptualized today existed (private ownership of the means of production using wage worker for profit), or like market socialism (like worker co-ops) isn't a thing. And also ignores the fact that even if you have issues with a system, and we were to accept the notion that trade is exclusively capitalist as true, if that system is all you realistically have available to subsist, you still have to participate in it even if you oppose it in part or in whole.

It's basically "You exchanged goods for money once, therefore you can't criticize the (presumed) exploitative nature of a system built around the relentless search for profit and the giant corporations it spans, its wasteful consumer culture, wage slavery, etc." This is made more ridiculous if the goods exchanged are things you produced yourself using your own means of production (as indi publishers* could), as opposed to selling stuff other people produced at a markup while paying them as little as possible.

*Which granted, doesn't apply to Mongoose, but it's entirely doable if you want to publish your own stuff.

  No, I put capitalism in quotes for a reason, what you are complaining about, and what most complain about is not capitalism.  It is corporatism.  I just want the people bitching, like you, to use the proper definitions or clear meanings as capitalism is used to narrowly focus on massive corporations (which honestly wield more power than a government and do all they can to destroy actual capitalists and smaller business). 

Capitalism's basic tenet is that private ownership is virtually inviolable. You can dispense with that notion and still have trade, even a fairly free market system (at least as free as under capitalism).  Most people aren't really capitalists in survival situations, and most people don't acknowledge how many aspects of modern life are survival situations.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 04:04:30 PM
Capitalism's basic tenet is that private ownership is virtually inviolable. You can dispense with that notion and still have trade, even a fairly free market system (at least as free as under capitalism).  Most people aren't really capitalists in survival situations, and most people don't acknowledge how many aspects of modern life are survival situations.

If nobody owns anything, you can't have trade or a free market. You just have bureaucrats guessing how to allocate resources. And no, survival situations are vanishingly rare in modern life, and those situations typically don't involve trade anyway.