Shield Maiden's... Yawn... How about a Battle Maiden lol

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:08:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 14, 2022, 05:18:56 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's like using the most inbred motherfucker as a positive to say a family is inclusive because they didn't exclude uncle-dad/brother-cousin from the family photo.

That's not an apt example at all. It wasn't just one event, but it was allowing people who would otherwise have no social contact at all to have regular social contact.

Gamers, as a whole, are extremely inclusive. That's what makes the modern virtue signalling so insulting.

It would be another matter if they were to say 'tabletop RPGs have always been an inclusive hobby, and whoever you are, you can definitely play'. That's just repeating the obvious, but we also have a 'what is an RPG?' section in every book, so that wouldn't hurt.

Yes.  That's what makes this whole gaslighting so infuriating.  There has never been an exclusionary aspect of gamers as a whole.  For us, it was always about the love of the game.  From the very beginning it was gamers who were mocked, ridiculed, and excluded.  Now that we survived and came out on top they want in, but in order to justify it they need to pretend they weren't the a-holes, we were.

Yea, it's a pretty bitter pill to swallow, seeing revisionist history in action.
Guess we were bullies and socially critical of other people.
I must have been gaming with the wrong crew and missed that whole movement.

The problem RE: the "inclusive" BS is that there are aspects of it that sound plausible to some people from a very low resolution PoV, cuz there's this narrative that's been sold to us (going back to the 90's at least) that people need to see "themselves" in media in order to feel "represented" in it. And that not seeing yourself "represented" in media is supposed to be this traumatic experience that causes you to disassociate from reality or feel not wanted/belonging or something, but that presumed white people wouldn't be able to understand cuz they've seen people who look just like them in movies or TTRPG book art all their lives (cuz they all look alike apparently, and seeing any old white person in a pic will do).

So you don't know how good you've got it seeing pics of yourself all your life in every bit of media you consume. But think of all the black people who've never seen Sisko in Star Trek DS9, or Blade, or Shaft (before I was even born), etc. And it turns into this navel gazing assumption that 1) people desperately NEED to "see themselves" in media (newsflash: even if you're black and you see DS9, you probably don't look like Sisko and you're definitely NOT the Emissary of the Prophets), and that 2) such media doesn't even exist, like we're living in the early 1900s.

But, of course, this is the part where the goalposts change, and now we've brought up actual examples of non-whites "represented" in media the argument becomes that there haven't been enough, or that there haven't been transpeople in it, or every time you look at a couple they're straight, etc. When the claim that "people need to feel represented in media" hasn't even been substantiated to begin with. Cuz the thing about that claim is that it's simply asserted into existence without proper substantiation about whether it's true or not. It's just assumed that it is, cuz obviously it must be true (wouldn't it?).

So the burden of proof is shifted onto the people who object to such a notion. A no amount of bringing up cartoons with talking animals and such, and not a single human in them, will dissuade them from the idea that you somehow need to see people who look "just like you" in media in order to relate to it. So they just keep repeating it ad nauseam, cuz obviously "representation" is important, it just HAS to be!

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 06:49:04 AM
When the claim that "people need to feel represented in media" hasn't even been substantiated to begin with.

Indeed. Honestly, I've never felt "represented" by "traditional" eurocentric fantasy tropes because they are all also very Anglocentric. As a Baltic/Slavic/Romani Jew, that just isn't me at all. D&D itself was aswarm with Christianity from the beginning.

Never stopped me or even gave me pause.
I would (and have) also gladly play games where my character is African.
Or Asian.
Or Monstrous.
Or Alien.

Newsflash for the SJWs and everyone else: no one plays RPGs to represent themselves.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on March 15, 2022, 02:22:14 AM
Yea, it's a pretty bitter pill to swallow, seeing revisionist history in action.
Guess we were bullies and socially critical of other people.
I must have been gaming with the wrong crew and missed that whole movement.

I didn't see too much of the excluding/bullying within rpg groups, but there was some between different rpg groups. This always seemed more based upon gaming styles than race/gender lines. OTOH, I sa a lot of crap flung between needs with different tastes: card gamers vs. tabletop rpgs vs. LARPers vs. Warhammer players (and even between fantasy and 40K players). There was a lot of One True Way (to be a nerd), bu it was not based upon skin, religion, sexual preference (though that one rarely came up publicly in what i saw of 80s/90s gaming groups) or genitals.

The more that I think about this after MongooseMatt has replied the more I think that these Shield Maidens are the apex warriors of this game and that , like Loki has in both lore and movies, people can choose to transform themselves or be "reborn" as Shield Maidens through some sort of process that is specific to this setting.

In this way Mongoose can say that "Not all shield maidens were born female" and this not be some sort of wokescold, SJW, witchhunt due to the game setting having people of both sexes striving and wanting to become these Ultimate Warriors.

I'm fine with this concept as we've had creatures transform into other races in D&D since the dawn of this game and also in Lore (Zeus is a horny god) and Mythology.

I could be utterly wrong but insofar as I've read by MM there doesn't seem to be a case here of pandering to the extreme.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 15, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
The more that I think about this after MongooseMatt has replied the more I think that these Shield Maidens are the apex warriors of this game and that , like Loki has in both lore and movies, people can choose to transform themselves or be "reborn" as Shield Maidens through some sort of process that is specific to this setting.

In this way Mongoose can say that "Not all shield maidens were born female" and this not be some sort of wokescold, SJW, witchhunt due to the game setting having people of both sexes striving and wanting to become these Ultimate Warriors.

I'm fine with this concept as we've had creatures transform into other races in D&D since the dawn of this game and also in Lore (Zeus is a horny god) and Mythology.

I could be utterly wrong but insofar as I've read by MM there doesn't seem to be a case here of pandering to the extreme.

It's quite possible that MM and Mongoose don't have a particular agenda to push and are just going with the flow.

But I wonder does the writer/creator have any such leanings? I'm just a guy asking questions.

This is from Cybe's Website.
"They have a degree in Film & Media with a minor in sociology and media, they are non-binary and their pronouns are they/them and was born in Scotland. They currently live in England, and are co-manager of a large gaming club, and have written extensively on inclusion and positive representation within the gaming community in particular with relation to LGBTQ+ and transgender visibility in several gaming publications and blogs."

Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:49:58 AM
Indeed. Honestly, I've never felt "represented" by "traditional" eurocentric fantasy tropes because they are all also very Anglocentric. As a Baltic/Slavic/Romani Jew, that just isn't me at all. D&D itself was aswarm with Christianity from the beginning.

  And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 15, 2022, 11:12:34 AM
And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game.

Well, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

And didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:11:48 AM


It's quite possible that MM and Mongoose don't have a particular agenda to push and are just going with the flow.

But I wonder does the writer/creator have any such leanings? I'm just a guy asking questions.

This is from Cybe's Website.
"They have a degree in Film & Media with a minor in sociology and media, they are non-binary and their pronouns are they/them and was born in Scotland. They currently live in England, and are co-manager of a large gaming club, and have written extensively on inclusion and positive representation within the gaming community in particular with relation to LGBTQ+ and transgender visibility in several gaming publications and blogs."

Well that book is quite fucked then as I had  no idea the author literally was the Penultimate SJW as nothing in that bio leads me to believe there isn't an agenda being pushed in with an axe handle.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 15, 2022, 11:34:23 AM
Well that book is quite fucked then as I had  no idea the author literally was the Penultimate SJW

To be honest neither did I. I just thought Mongoose were checking boxes while following the latest woke scold playbook.

But I was curious who Cybe was as I'd never heard of them.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:15:11 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 15, 2022, 11:12:34 AM
And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game.

Well, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

And didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

  No, the jack chicks guy and evangelists are not exactly representative of Christians IME.   Not sure about the parallel between culture appropriation and middle east....a religion is adopted, not appropriated. 

  As to some red flags with the book...yeah there are more flags than the sex of the protagonist heroes.  I will withhold judgement till release though.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 15, 2022, 11:57:16 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:15:11 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 15, 2022, 11:12:34 AM
And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game.

Well, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

And didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

  No, the jack chicks guy and evangelists are not exactly representative of Christians IME.   Not sure about the parallel between culture appropriation and middle east....a religion is adopted, not appropriated.

True. I suppose it would depend on how 'extreme' the Christian is.