Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I think that would be fair, yes.

Let me see if I understand you, on a cyberpunk game, mongoose felt the need to specify that shieldmaidens don't need to be born as women.

In a game, whose genre has ALWAYS included transpeople ever since the first printing of Cyberpunk 2013...

When Cyberpunk 2077 (The video game) was about to come out, some people tried to make a fuss about it including trans people, guess what we who know the genre said? Well duh! of course it includes transpeople! it's a setting where body modification is very common place!

Now, you might start to have an inkling as to why we think this was made to pander to a certain demographic, that mostly don't buy/play RPGs (not talking about trans people, but about political activists on TBP/Twitter).

THEN you add the pronouns thing. AND the fighting "fascists" thing. And the use of terms like "inclusivity" & "diversity". People ARE going to think (correctly IMHO) this was all made to pander to said political activists.

I'm a Maya, do you honestly think that not having Mayans in game X means I'm not going to want to play it or enjoy it as much as if it had them?

I'm also an autist, do you honestly think that game X not stating that autists are welcome (autists being over represented in the hobby as it is) means we aren't going to want to play or enjoy it as much as it it stated so?

Please provide an example, not Myfarog, of a game where ANY difference between the sexes/races is present and it's not justified by trying to better emulate the setting. Even Pundit's L&D explicity allows for women where you would find either none or almost none in a real world medieval society.

Worst you can find IIRC is the fact that women PCs used to have bonuses and penalties in ther Attributes way back when. But even that wasn't made to try an exclude anyone.

You honestly think we geeks didn't want women who shared our hobbies? Women that didn't look/thought of us as lesser because of our interests?

You honestly think we wouldn't have welcome a person of whatever race/sex/sexuality because of their race/sex/sexuality? I'm sure that very early one you could have found SOME people like that, but, by the very nature of their attitudes they would have very fast found themselves without a table/group to play at/with.

And we do find it offensive when someone casts asperssions about our character/hobbies by implying that NOW, that someone has finally made it "inclusive" and "diverse".

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

The rules are not finalised yet, but no, that would make no sense. The power levels need to be the same.

In short you don't know, but in your opinion it shouldn't be the case.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

That is not really how the initial development went (might well have been watching the shield maidens in Vikings and thought, 'this is good, but needs more cyberpunk...'), but sure, would not necessarily have been ruled out. Put another way, we would have no issues doing, say, an RPG based on 40k Space Marines.

I believe you, doesn't mean that pandering to political activists wasn't on the developers minds or on someone above them that made them include it.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

Yep, yep. Published by FFG in 2010. Appears to be OOP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathwatch_(role-playing_game)
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/category/roleplaying-games
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=deathwatch&manufacturers_id=6&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

Quote from: Slambo on March 13, 2022, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

The irony is that a female space marine would look almost identical to a male one after the enhancements. So GW could just say that and not have to make any other changes.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 02:17:21 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

Yep, yep. Published by FFG in 2010. Appears to be OOP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathwatch_(role-playing_game)
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/category/roleplaying-games
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=deathwatch&manufacturers_id=6&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

I also played their Dark Heresy 2 game and had an Adepta Sororitas (female) PC. She eventually made it be a Battle Sister and kicked ass with a hand flamer and chainsword (had a superiors power sword briefly, but had to return it after the mission).

Quote from: Slambo on March 13, 2022, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

Someone even brought up older version of Pendragon having Knights being required to be male as an example of "games non-inclusive by design" in a similar discussion involving Shield Maidens in another board. And I thought that game was supposed to be pretty Medieval authentic (at least in a legendary context), but apparently you can't have male-only knights in a hard core medieval world. I've seen people complain about video games without female options in character creation all the time too, at least with every single game coming out the past decade or so.

And note that nobody, even here, is complaining about the lack of male Shield Maidens. If only the complain has been that the game allows biological males/transwomen to be Shield Maidens, which is a weird hill to die on, regarding a cyberpunk game. So absolutely NOBODY cares about women-only organizations in ANY game (just transwomen being allowed, cuz fuck SJWs, apparently). It's only when the reverse is true (often in completely setting-appropriate contexts) that the world falls apart.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 03:29:06 PM

Quote from: Slambo on March 13, 2022, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

Someone even brought up older version of Pendragon having Knights being required to be male as an example of "games non-inclusive by design" in a similar discussion involving Shield Maidens in another board. And I thought that game was supposed to be pretty Medieval authentic (at least in a legendary context), but apparently you can't have male-only knights in a hard core medieval world. I've seen people complain about video games without female options in character creation all the time too, at least with every single game coming out the past decade or so.

And note that nobody, even here, is complaining about the lack of male Shield Maidens. If only the complain has been that the game allows biological males/transwomen to be Shield Maidens, which is a weird hill to die on, regarding a cyberpunk game. So absolutely NOBODY cares about women-only organizations in ANY game (just transwomen being allowed, cuz fuck SJWs, apparently). It's only when the reverse is true (often in completely setting-appropriate contexts) that the world falls apart.

I think the real issue people have with this is the obvious pandering. I remember when Cyberpunk 2077 was about to be released WE were saying trans people in that setting ISN'T pandering because it has always have them.

Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

I would totally play a woman in ANY game, even one with sex based bonuses/penalties, I would totally play Cyberpunk 2013/2020/2077/Red and have exactly ZERO issue with transpeople in it.

Who was it that had an issue with Cyberpunk 2077? The D.I.E. cult.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

  Did he ever really play in games?  Or was he always lurking around other people's games and giving advice, opinions, and stories about his epic games?

Quote from: oggsmash on March 14, 2022, 01:33:39 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

  Did he ever really play in games?  Or was he always lurking around other people's games and giving advice, opinions, and stories about his epic games?

I've played at least one con session with a CPM. I also knew a CPB in high school. So yes.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's my big issue with all this childish nonsense... If RPGs were originally 'unwelcoming' or designed specifically to segregate certain people, then they'd have a very valid point, but nothing could be further from the truth.

This is all about trying to appease some vestigial guilt that they harbor, and one they are trying to pass over on to everyone else. Thus, making sure we all conform to their childish standards.

Sod off says I.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's like using the most inbred motherfucker as a positive to say a family is inclusive because they didn't exclude uncle-dad/brother-cousin from the family photo.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 14, 2022, 05:18:56 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's like using the most inbred motherfucker as a positive to say a family is inclusive because they didn't exclude uncle-dad/brother-cousin from the family photo.

That's not an apt example at all. It wasn't just one event, but it was allowing people who would otherwise have no social contact at all to have regular social contact.

Gamers, as a whole, are extremely inclusive. That's what makes the modern virtue signalling so insulting.

It would be another matter if they were to say 'tabletop RPGs have always been an inclusive hobby, and whoever you are, you can definitely play'. That's just repeating the obvious, but we also have a 'what is an RPG?' section in every book, so that wouldn't hurt.