Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 08:36:43 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Hmm... I suspect you went the they/them route to tick all the boxes, as the TBP would like you to.

I am telling you we did not, and have explained the reasons why we did do this.

However, I am afraid I do not know who or what TBP is/are.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Well, you obviously don't like talking too much about games here, as you've only got just over thirty posts.

Give me a chance, I only found out about this forum, what, two or three months-ish ago! Kept an eye on it most days to get a feel for things - and here I am!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
The upshot is, I personally don't believe you're here for the reasons you say you are. Other people are free to disagree of course.

Okay... But here is the problem with that. Here, you are flat out calling me a liar - and I am not sure I have done anything against you to make you think that. I have tried to be as open and honest as I can, and you seem to be saying that it does not matter what I say to you, you will simply think I am lying.

I am not sure we can progress very far under those terms.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Lastly, I will say the art for Sheildmaides is fantastic. Credit where credit is due.

I do appreciate that, thank you.

I think the term "liar" is a bit strong to be fair.

To keep things simple and civil. I think you're here to try and promote your game. Nothing really wrong with that. But I think some of the directions you've chosen to go with SM are to please the woke scolds of the big purple crowd.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 09:37:44 PM
Well these days, inclusive means no white males.

Except for white males who self-identify as "they", ofc.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 08:36:43 AM
However, I am afraid I do not know who or what TBP is/are.

RPG.net - lots of purple in their layout. Hence The Big Purple, TBP.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 02:11:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 01:37:57 PM
Okay, let me see if I got it right, shield maidens don't have to be born women? Or they do have to be born women? It's a simple enough question I think.

It is indeed. They do not have to be born women.

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I'm not a fan of the pronoun stuff, but at the same time it's become so commonplace (even starting way back in the 90s) It's hard to hold one poster's balls to the fire just cuz their company decided to "update" their books with "they/them" pronouns. Is it pandering or caving in to the woke crowd? Sure. But demanding that they not do it or at least getting upset if they do feels almost like forcing them to pick a side on the culture war. And pronouns are so innocuous (I even avoid being gender specific sometimes, unless I'm taking about a specific person or character) they hardly register on my radar.

I do think bringing up stuff like "diversity" or "inclusivity" starts to veer closer to more egregious stuff, because it implies that if you don't agree with them or have some type of objection for any reason you must be some kind of bigot. When in reality "diversity" in the current political climate tends to be code for shoehorning certain identity groups just to tick off boxes in the name of "representation", which itself carries a bunch of implications. Like the idea that every group needs to be explicitly "represented", otherwise you're "excluding" them cuz you didn't mention them specifically (you bigot), or that all decent people agree that seeing their own personal identity group included in every work of fiction is of some paramount importance, and the failure to do so constitutes some personal slight against them. It also places you in a position where you have to defend setting specific stuff such as "knights can't be female" (in a historically authentic game), like that's any more egregious than "Valkyries must be female".

Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 08:31:55 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 12, 2022, 08:27:31 AM
They couldn't have added towel boys for people who wanted to play men in a game about shield maidens?

They'll be there. We have rules for a type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them.

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:34:00 AM
Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Where's that? I'd love to read it. lol

But seriously, I agree once you, once you bring up the topic of diversity and inclusivity then you are opening up a whole can of ugly worms. The mods on that site should have shut it down. But at the same time, now that it's been brought up. I'm not allowing them to bleat out a load of emotive bs without at least backing that shit up.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 09:48:12 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:34:00 AM
Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Where's that? I'd love to read it. lol

But seriously, I agree once you, once you bring up the topic of diversity and inclusivity then you are opening up a whole can of ugly worms. The mods on that site should have shut it down. But at the same time, now that it's been brought up. I'm not allowing them to bleat out a load of emotive bs without at least backing that shit up.

I was itching to reply to that post. Like, dude...the EXTREME majority of RPGs let you play whatever. Just cuz like two games in history specify that certain classes/professions can't be female for valid setting-specific reasons is not any more evidence of discrimination than saying "Shield Maidens and Valkyries can't be male". And the idea of male Valkyries would be RIDICULOUS.

Just cuz women can join the military now and that's become a cultural sticking point in the modern age that doesn't mean we can never play a historically authentic game set in Medieval or ancient Europe where only men can be Knights or whatever, or that trans-Knights must be included too, like people in the ancient world even knew WTF trans people are.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?  Interesting blurb here in a bit I read online.

QuoteAs the agents of Fenrir try to stifle free thought and social justice, crush individuality and deny diversity, the Shield Maidens stand tall, a beacon of light to all living beings within the nine realms.

Fenrir sound like the totalitarian Left. I doubt that was the intention.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 04:27:47 AM
If it is not obvious, I am a middle-aged, straight white male. I like to be included in things and have not found a massive amount of barriers stopping me from being so.

Of course not, the only "barriers" for anyone getting into gaming are those erected by themselves. Everything else is illusory -- or more often defamatory.

A lot of us think it's pretty obviously racist/sexist when a game goes out of its way to explicitly be "welcoming" to a singular gender/race group. Because we don't like judging people by their skin color or gender, and that includes whether or not they should be "welcomed".

What bothers me the most is the way statements like "trans characters are OK too!" perpetuate that defamation. Because the implication is that trans characters are not OK elsewhere. i.e., the same reason you don't feel the need for the game to "welcome" straight white men.

No, it's not true that other games (ours), or other gamers (us!) exclude the people your game "welcomes", and the insinuation is gross.

FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 10:17:01 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 09:48:12 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:34:00 AM
Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Where's that? I'd love to read it. lol

But seriously, I agree once you, once you bring up the topic of diversity and inclusivity then you are opening up a whole can of ugly worms. The mods on that site should have shut it down. But at the same time, now that it's been brought up. I'm not allowing them to bleat out a load of emotive bs without at least backing that shit up.

I was itching to reply to that post. Like, dude...the EXTREME majority of RPGs let you play whatever. Just cuz like two games in history specify that certain classes/professions can't be female for valid setting-specific reasons is not any more evidence of discrimination than saying "Shield Maidens and Valkyries can't be male". And the idea of male Valkyries would be RIDICULOUS.

Just cuz women can join the military now and that's become a cultural sticking point in the modern age that doesn't mean we can never play a historically authentic game set in Medieval or ancient Europe where only men can be Knights or whatever, or that trans-Knights must be included too, like people in the ancient world even knew WTF trans people are.

Yeah, I hear ya'... I'll probably get a slap on the wrist for replying to that mumbo jumbo over yonder. How many boxes will us straight white dudes have to tick? Just to get a few virtual backslaps from people who are trying to control 'your' game. And just who sets those standards anyway?

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I think that would be fair, yes.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

The rules are not finalised yet, but no, that would make no sense. The power levels need to be the same.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

That is not really how the initial development went (might well have been watching the shield maidens in Vikings and thought, 'this is good, but needs more cyberpunk...'), but sure, would not necessarily have been ruled out. Put another way, we would have no issues doing, say, an RPG based on 40k Space Marines.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I think that would be fair, yes.

Given that it is a fantasy/cyberpunk game and not real-life, I can see how that could be (e.g., nano-bots perform the transition at the genetic level).

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

The rules are not finalised yet, but no, that would make no sense. The power levels need to be the same.

Understood.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

That is not really how the initial development went (might well have been watching the shield maidens in Vikings and thought, 'this is good, but needs more cyberpunk...'), but sure, would not necessarily have been ruled out. Put another way, we would have no issues doing, say, an RPG based on 40k Space Marines.

Understood.


Sounds reasonable to me. Best of luck to you.