TheRPGSite

So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

    I read a few comments from people about the "evil empire" and it sure looks like the not being born female females is just a beginning to lots of worldview spewing.   Forcing players to be a female is retarded.  I could not talk my son into doing that if I paid him a hundred bucks.  Seems like it will be a very narrow band of people it is catering too.  I wish them luck.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

In Current Year, this is weaksauce. Then again, I walked away from Mongoose a long time ago.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

Well, at least there is no virtue signaling going on there. Phew!

Considering that two days ago they tweeted out: Forget what you thought you knew, as Norse mythology only got the facts partly right, this isn't a surprise. They are just correcting the mistakes in Norse mythology based on the most recent scientific data.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 08:26:53 PM
Considering that two days ago they tweeted out: Forget what you thought you knew, as Norse mythology only got the facts partly right, this isn't a surprise. They are just correcting the mistakes in Norse mythology based on the most recent scientific data.

Are the developers of Norse descent? Are they practicing neopagans? I thought the Left condemned this sort of cultural appropriation.

Quote from: RandyB on March 11, 2022, 06:57:23 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

In Current Year, this is weaksauce. Then again, I walked away from Mongoose a long time ago.

After the last few sourcebooks that were put out, I've decided to stop buying from Mongoose. I'm not in the LGBTQ demographic which seems to be Mongoose's target audience now because of the subsidized government money these days for most media outlets.

These 'social issues' have merit in the real world. But having this petty nonsense like this in an elf game is just so lame.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

Wanna bet they aren't necessarily nordic either?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2022, 10:28:04 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

Wanna bet they aren't necessarily nordic either?

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Asgard

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 11, 2022, 10:55:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2022, 10:28:04 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

Wanna bet they aren't necessarily nordic either?

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Asgard

LOL


maiden
noun

1.  an unmarried girl or young woman

Example: "two knights fought to win the hand of a fair maiden"

Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, the Kickstarter for this begins an April 1st.

It also looks like it just pays lip service to Norse Mythology.

Quote from: Shield Maidens Description

The Shield Maidens Kickstarter will launch at 2pm GMT on Friday April 1st!

'Hear well this prophecy, child of Heimdall, for it speaks of your sisters. As the age of the world grows weary, the gods will wage great wars and the glory of humankind will be as to nothing. In those days will stride forth Shield Maidens who carry great power, and theirs will be the hands that bring forward an end to all that has gone before. Remember this, child of Heimdall — though in the days of unending winter, even dragons may forget.'

A brand new science-fiction roleplaying game, Shield Maidens is written by Alison Cybe to meld a cyberpunk world with Viking mythology. You will become one of the Shield Maidens, fighting the endless battle against Ragnarök and the end of the cosmos, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with your sisters, to face the gods themselves. By merging technology and myth into a divinely-fuelled hardlight Guardian Shield, you will be the last hope of humanity. It is up to you and your sisters to decide the fate of the cosmos, and to turn the wheel of time yet again.

Shield Maidens is a 2D6 system, with the D8 Shield Dice used when you call upon the unwieldy power you hold as a daughter of Freya. There is no class system in Shield Maidens, and you are not limited by what skills you choose but rather who you truly are – the power of your Guardian Shield scales against your highest qualities, be they Observation, Understanding, Might, Speed, Resilience or Expression.

Shield Maidens blends ancient Norse mythology and cyberpunk technology; plasma rifles with wolfen iconography are a common sight among the Fenrir Drengr; star spanning empires search for Ymir's blood, a substance used to fuel the engines of ships, Guardian Shields and the artificial sun of Midgard; Dwarves mould and contort their realm from above, their physical bodies no longer of use; and the Jötunn battle endlessly against the forces of The Pure.

The old gods are present but uncaring, and have allowed their children to rampage throughout the cosmos whilst the Allfather slumbers. Freya, patron of the Shield Maidens, waits in Vanaheimr, the war between the gods of at a standstill. It will not be long before the skies alight once more with their wrath, though none now live that remember the cause...

Shield Maidens represents the freedom to choose to be who you are. You are tasked with breaking the chains that bind you, both metaphorically and physically. Freya has entrusted not only the fate of Midgard, but that of Yggdrasil itself to you and your fellow Shield Maidens; you must remove the icy grip of the Fenrir Empire and usher in the spring. You will stand against tyranny, oppression, and empires that stretch into the stars... perhaps even Odin himself...



The Shield Maidens Kickstarter will launch at 2pm GMT on Friday April 1st!

The art on the page is all female, except for a motorcycle (which I guess could identify as female).

Where does it say that the rules allow for Shield Maidens not born female?

https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/shield-maidens

EDIT: Really, compared to Thirsty Sword Lesbians, this is a some pretty weaksauce pandering to the SJW community.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 09:27:40 PMbecause of the subsidized government money these days for most media outlets.

Okay, Rumour Control.

Aside from a really small amount from our local council (not central government) during the lockdowns and related purely to the pandemic, Mongoose has not received any government subsidies of this nature.

On the other hand, if anyone has any questions about Shield Maidens (or any of our other games, for that matter), well, that is what I am here for!

RPG companies getting government subsidies seems to be a purely Scandinavian thing afaict.

Also, have to give some respect to MongooseMatt for engaging with our friendly Hive of Scum & Villainy.  ;D

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 03:01:38 AM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 09:27:40 PMbecause of the subsidized government money these days for most media outlets.

Okay, Rumour Control.

Aside from a really small amount from our local council (not central government) during the lockdowns and related purely to the pandemic, Mongoose has not received any government subsidies of this nature.

On the other hand, if anyone has any questions about Shield Maidens (or any of our other games, for that matter), well, that is what I am here for!

Shield Maidens is a legitimate game product and not an April Fool's joke, correct?

What gaming demographic is this game product created for?

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
Shield Maidens is a legitimate game product and not an April Fool's joke, correct?

I am not sure we have the sense of humour for it to be otherwise. Besides the Kickstarter starts after midday...

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
What gaming demographic is this game product created for?

Honestly, RPGers. It is possible that it may skew towards female gamers, given the subject material, but really it may appeal to anyone who likes the idea of kick-arse characters fighting gods and empires with both magic and tech across multiple worlds. Add to that a simple core rules system that allows us to layer 'chrome' on top, much as we do with Traveller, and I think the appeal could be broad.

It is certainly our best looking game, in terms of art and presentation!

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 07:23:13 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
Shield Maidens is a legitimate game product and not an April Fool's joke, correct?

I am not sure we have the sense of humour for it to be otherwise. Besides the Kickstarter starts after midday...

I distinctly remember artwork of a Vargr with a pair of antlers used to shut up some grognards. I'd say that you've got the sense of humour. :)

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 07:23:13 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
What gaming demographic is this game product created for?

Honestly, RPGers. It is possible that it may skew towards female gamers, given the subject material, but really it may appeal to anyone who likes the idea of kick-arse characters fighting gods and empires with both magic and tech across multiple worlds. Add to that a simple core rules system that allows us to layer 'chrome' on top, much as we do with Traveller, and I think the appeal could be broad.

It is certainly our best looking game, in terms of art and presentation!

Thank you for the prompt answers.

The art does look good so far.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

They couldn't have added towel boys for people who wanted to play men in a game about shield maidens?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 12, 2022, 08:27:31 AM
They couldn't have added towel boys for people who wanted to play men in a game about shield maidens?

They'll be there. We have rules for a type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them.

Quote from: Horace on March 11, 2022, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 08:26:53 PM
Considering that two days ago they tweeted out: Forget what you thought you knew, as Norse mythology only got the facts partly right, this isn't a surprise. They are just correcting the mistakes in Norse mythology based on the most recent scientific data.

Are the developers of Norse descent? Are they practicing neopagans? I thought the Left condemned this sort of cultural appropriation.

Only if it involves non-white cultures. Whites have no culture, so taking elements from their non-cultures and twisting them around is OK.  :P

On the actual game, I haven't really delved into it, but I saw it posted elsewhere and the neon runes on top of Nordic style buildings mashed with cyberpunk architecture looked pretty cool.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 07:23:13 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
Shield Maidens is a legitimate game product and not an April Fool's joke, correct?

I am not sure we have the sense of humour for it to be otherwise. Besides the Kickstarter starts after midday...

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
What gaming demographic is this game product created for?

Honestly, RPGers. It is possible that it may skew towards female gamers, given the subject material, but really it may appeal to anyone who likes the idea of kick-arse characters fighting gods and empires with both magic and tech across multiple worlds. Add to that a simple core rules system that allows us to layer 'chrome' on top, much as we do with Traveller, and I think the appeal could be broad.

It is certainly our best looking game, in terms of art and presentation!

But.... "Muh Representashun!"

I honestly couldn't give two farts as what the rules say or the PCs being all female, but this stinks of hypocrisy if you ask me.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 03:01:38 AM
On the other hand, if anyone has any questions about Shield Maidens (or any of our other games, for that matter), well, that is what I am here for!

Well, one quick question(s) then. Why do you feel the need, not to have shield maidens born women and then make a statement about it? Isn't this just an attempt to virtue signal?

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 03:01:38 AM

On the other hand, if anyone has any questions about Shield Maidens (or any of our other games, for that matter), well, that is what I am here for!

I asked a question on the Mongoose forums about the game. My post was deleted.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:08:13 PM
Well, one quick question(s) then. Why do you feel the need, not to have shield maidens born women and then make a statement about it? Isn't this just an attempt to virtue signal?

I don't think so? It is all about a sisterhood under Freya (and there is an in-universe mechanical reason for this, which we will get into in an upcoming reveal) so that is kind of an inevitable direction to go in. As for a 'need'... it is just being welcoming, isn't it?

Unless I am mis-understanding the question?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 01:13:07 PM

I asked a question on the Mongoose forums about the game. My post was deleted.

That was not by me - would you like to ask the question here?

Edit: Okay, just gone back through the forums logs and I can see who did it and their reasons. Talking to them now - you are welcome to ask the question here.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 01:20:24 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:08:13 PM
Well, one quick question(s) then. Why do you feel the need, not to have shield maidens born women and then make a statement about it? Isn't this just an attempt to virtue signal?

I don't think so? It is all about a sisterhood under Freya (and there is an in-universe mechanical reason for this, which we will get into in an upcoming reveal) so that is kind of an inevitable direction to go in. As for a 'need'... it is just being welcoming, isn't it?

Unless I am mis-understanding the question?

Okay, let me see if I got it right, shield maidens don't have to be born women? Or they do have to be born women? It's a simple enough question I think.

  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?  Interesting blurb here in a bit I read online.

QuoteAs the agents of Fenrir try to stifle free thought and social justice, crush individuality and deny diversity, the Shield Maidens stand tall, a beacon of light to all living beings within the nine realms.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 01:20:24 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:08:13 PM
Well, one quick question(s) then. Why do you feel the need, not to have shield maidens born women and then make a statement about it? Isn't this just an attempt to virtue signal?

I don't think so? It is all about a sisterhood under Freya (and there is an in-universe mechanical reason for this, which we will get into in an upcoming reveal) so that is kind of an inevitable direction to go in. As for a 'need'... it is just being welcoming, isn't it?

Unless I am mis-understanding the question?

Riiiight... So your 'mechanical' reasoning is basically shoehorning in a concept just for the sake of it. You're just flying the flag to appease and court the twitter mob. So, yeah... It's virtue signaling IMO.

"Just being welcoming" All RPGs are welcoming. I don't see ANY RPGs ever saying, 'Hey you can't be trans, gay or whaterthefuck to play our game'.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?

Except it's not all female, because you have to be born female to fit into such category, it's all wahmen.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?

Nooooo, sort of... not really. Again, we will go deeper into this but, in a nutshell, the Shield Maidens have been tasked with getting time moving again. The Fenrir Empire is standing in their way.

So, plenty of clashes with Fenrir and they will at times seem like the main enemy. But the currents are running much, much deeper.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 01:45:15 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?

Except it's not all female, because you have to be born female to fit into such category, it's all wahmen.

  I guess I should have just said sisterhood.  I did see this blurb in a press bit about the game ......

Quote"As the agents of Fenrir try to stifle free thought and social justice, crush individuality and deny diversity, the Shield Maidens stand tall, a beacon of light to all living beings within the nine realms."

  So that is interesting. 

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 01:47:19 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?

Nooooo, sort of... not really. Again, we will go deeper into this but, in a nutshell, the Shield Maidens have been tasked with getting time moving again. The Fenrir Empire is standing in their way.

So, plenty of clashes with Fenrir and they will at times seem like the main enemy. But the currents are running much, much deeper.

So basically it's a game designed for women & woke scolds.

And all white men are bad.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 01:47:19 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?

Nooooo, sort of... not really. Again, we will go deeper into this but, in a nutshell, the Shield Maidens have been tasked with getting time moving again. The Fenrir Empire is standing in their way.

So, plenty of clashes with Fenrir and they will at times seem like the main enemy. But the currents are running much, much deeper.

  So the human(ish) opposition is NOT going to be a bunch of white dude spewing toxic masculinity?  I am sure looking as close to the other favorite bad guys of all time as possible,  while the real enemy is of course some super duper supernatural menace. 

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:42:30 PM
"Just being welcoming" All RPGs are welcoming. I don't see ANY RPGs ever saying, 'Hey you can't be trans, gay or whaterthefuck to play our game'.

It's just the author's doing. Check out his twitter at AlisonCybe.

 With this Fenrir empire come with goose stepping and "Roman" salutes?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:42:30 PM
Riiiight... So your 'mechanical' reasoning is basically shoehorning in a concept just for the sake of it.

Well, no - I haven't explained the mechanical reason yet. And, if you will forgive me, I will wait until that is properly previewed (being part of the universe).

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:42:30 PM
You're just flying the flag to appease and court the twitter mob. So, yeah... It's virtue signaling IMO.

Mate, take a gander at our Twitter account - we really are not too active there :) If I did want to court a Twitter mob, I would not know who they are or how to do it!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 01:42:30 PM
"Just being welcoming" All RPGs are welcoming. I don't see ANY RPGs ever saying, 'Hey you can't be trans, gay or whaterthefuck to play our game'.

I think I see what you are getting at here. I can give an example of what I mean:

Recently, we updated the Traveller Core Rulebook. The reason we did this is because we were coming to the end of a print run and so, obviously, needed to reprint. However, our graphics and art have massively improved since the rulebook was first printed, and so we completely reformatted the layout and commissioned new art.

That was why the rulebook was changed/updated.

While we were at it, we took the opportunity to make a few tweaks, including changing pronouns to they/them. This was not an effort at virtue signalling (aside from a forum post or two, we barely mentioned it), but simply because we knew more women were playing and we wanted the game to feel more welcoming to them. NO other reason for it.

Shield Maidens is the same. We really just want to be welcoming. We are not looking to shove anything down your throat.

  In any event, thanks for the Mongoose version of Conan that was done years ago.  I have 6 or so of the books, and I enjoyed them quite a bit and thought it was presented in the best way that 3rd edition rules could have done.   Best of luck with this, it just seems a bit guilty of sniffing too many of its own farts and not for me.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 01:37:57 PM
Okay, let me see if I got it right, shield maidens don't have to be born women? Or they do have to be born women? It's a simple enough question I think.

It is indeed. They do not have to be born women.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:50:00 PM
  So the human(ish) opposition is NOT going to be a bunch of white dude spewing toxic masculinity? 

They are not. They _are_ fascist in structure and ideology, but it has nothing to do with being white masculine dudes.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:51:01 PM
With this Fenrir empire come with goose stepping and "Roman" salutes?

It will not. Propaganda is a big thing though.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:03:03 PM
  In any event, thanks for the Mongoose version of Conan that was done years ago.  I have 6 or so of the books, and I enjoyed them quite a bit and thought it was presented in the best way that 3rd edition rules could have done.   Best of luck with this, it just seems a bit guilty of sniffing too many of its own farts and not for me.

That's cool mate, not every game is for everyone. Not even Traveller (it may come close...).

Thank you for your kind words on Conan - that was a game I really enjoyed playing, and we still pull it out every now and again.

  So are they white men, or not?

  Edited to add:  and I will still give it a look through if I see it on the shelf.   I try not to let a first impression be my only impression.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:12:17 PM
  So are they white men, or not?

Well, some are white, sure... they are not all white.

That would be a bit odd, wouldn't it?

Very sorry, I think I am missing something.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 02:15:09 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:12:17 PM
  So are they white men, or not?

Well, some are white, sure... they are not all white.

That would be a bit odd, wouldn't it?

Very sorry, I think I am missing something.

  They are against diversity, according to the press blurb.  That usually has a pretty specific meaning these days. 

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:16:01 PM
  They are against diversity, according to the press blurb.  That usually has a pretty specific meaning these days.

Ah, yes, I understand, with you.

Do me a favour? Judge me on what I do, not on what some others are doing? I ain't responsible for them :)

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:47:29 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 01:45:15 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?

Except it's not all female, because you have to be born female to fit into such category, it's all wahmen.

  I guess I should have just said sisterhood.  I did see this blurb in a press bit about the game ......

Quote"As the agents of Fenrir try to stifle free thought and social justice, crush individuality and deny diversity, the Shield Maidens stand tall, a beacon of light to all living beings within the nine realms."

  So that is interesting.

So, it's the commie scum represented by the "sisterhood" of the "shieldmaidens" against the agents of Fenrir...

Wanna bet those agents are all white straight males (PUAGH!)?

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 02:18:39 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:16:01 PM
  They are against diversity, according to the press blurb.  That usually has a pretty specific meaning these days.

Ah, yes, I understand, with you.

Do me a favour? Judge me on what I do, not on what some others are doing? I ain't responsible for them :)

  No, it has a specific meaning for everyone who uses it in a sentence these days.  Do not attempt to make it my version of how those terms are used, when you know full well what it means.   I am willing to judge based on what you do though, explain how they are against diversity and that pretty much ends it.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 02:11:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 01:37:57 PM
Okay, let me see if I got it right, shield maidens don't have to be born women? Or they do have to be born women? It's a simple enough question I think.

It is indeed. They do not have to be born women.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:50:00 PM
  So the human(ish) opposition is NOT going to be a bunch of white dude spewing toxic masculinity? 

They are not. They _are_ fascist in structure and ideology, but it has nothing to do with being white masculine dudes.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:51:01 PM
With this Fenrir empire come with goose stepping and "Roman" salutes?

It will not. Propaganda is a big thing though.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:03:03 PM
  In any event, thanks for the Mongoose version of Conan that was done years ago.  I have 6 or so of the books, and I enjoyed them quite a bit and thought it was presented in the best way that 3rd edition rules could have done.   Best of luck with this, it just seems a bit guilty of sniffing too many of its own farts and not for me.

That's cool mate, not every game is for everyone. Not even Traveller (it may come close...).

Thank you for your kind words on Conan - that was a game I really enjoyed playing, and we still pull it out every now and again.

So, the OP was accurate wasn't it?

Yes, they will include any straight male probably.

Yes, propaganda is a big thing, this game being a perfect example of it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 11, 2022, 11:15:16 PM
Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, the Kickstarter for this begins an April 1st.

It also looks like it just pays lip service to Norse Mythology.

Quote from: Shield Maidens Description

The Shield Maidens Kickstarter will launch at 2pm GMT on Friday April 1st!

'Hear well this prophecy, child of Heimdall, for it speaks of your sisters. As the age of the world grows weary, the gods will wage great wars and the glory of humankind will be as to nothing. In those days will stride forth Shield Maidens who carry great power, and theirs will be the hands that bring forward an end to all that has gone before. Remember this, child of Heimdall — though in the days of unending winter, even dragons may forget.'

A brand new science-fiction roleplaying game, Shield Maidens is written by Alison Cybe to meld a cyberpunk world with Viking mythology. You will become one of the Shield Maidens, fighting the endless battle against Ragnarök and the end of the cosmos, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with your sisters, to face the gods themselves. By merging technology and myth into a divinely-fuelled hardlight Guardian Shield, you will be the last hope of humanity. It is up to you and your sisters to decide the fate of the cosmos, and to turn the wheel of time yet again.

Shield Maidens is a 2D6 system, with the D8 Shield Dice used when you call upon the unwieldy power you hold as a daughter of Freya. There is no class system in Shield Maidens, and you are not limited by what skills you choose but rather who you truly are – the power of your Guardian Shield scales against your highest qualities, be they Observation, Understanding, Might, Speed, Resilience or Expression.

Shield Maidens blends ancient Norse mythology and cyberpunk technology; plasma rifles with wolfen iconography are a common sight among the Fenrir Drengr; star spanning empires search for Ymir's blood, a substance used to fuel the engines of ships, Guardian Shields and the artificial sun of Midgard; Dwarves mould and contort their realm from above, their physical bodies no longer of use; and the Jötunn battle endlessly against the forces of The Pure.

The old gods are present but uncaring, and have allowed their children to rampage throughout the cosmos whilst the Allfather slumbers. Freya, patron of the Shield Maidens, waits in Vanaheimr, the war between the gods of at a standstill. It will not be long before the skies alight once more with their wrath, though none now live that remember the cause...

Shield Maidens represents the freedom to choose to be who you are. You are tasked with breaking the chains that bind you, both metaphorically and physically. Freya has entrusted not only the fate of Midgard, but that of Yggdrasil itself to you and your fellow Shield Maidens; you must remove the icy grip of the Fenrir Empire and usher in the spring. You will stand against tyranny, oppression, and empires that stretch into the stars... perhaps even Odin himself...



The Shield Maidens Kickstarter will launch at 2pm GMT on Friday April 1st!

The art on the page is all female, except for a motorcycle (which I guess could identify as female).

Where does it say that the rules allow for Shield Maidens not born female?

https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/shield-maidens

EDIT: Really, compared to Thirsty Sword Lesbians, this is a some pretty weaksauce pandering to the SJW community.

Well, based on the answers of mongoosematt the OP was accurate.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:24:01 PM

  No, it has a specific meaning for everyone who uses it in a sentence these days. 

I would dispute that. However, I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:24:01 PMDo not attempt to make it my version of how those terms are used, when you know full well what it means. 

I do now - it was not my intention to malign you in any way, I just wanted to be sure we were both talking about the same thing. It's all good.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 02:24:01 PM
I am willing to judge based on what you do though, explain how they are against diversity and that pretty much ends it.

Would you mind if we put a pin in this and return to it at a later date? We have a bunch of things coming up in the previews over the next couple of weeks or so, and I don't want to undercut all of that just yet :)

  No worries I dont want anything spoiled.   As for what people mean when they mention diversity and social justice, yeah we can agree to disagree as to how it is meant in almost all discourse these days.

Have to tip my hat to mongoosematt. While I believe this is run of the mill virtue signaling, it is pretty clear that he doesn't 'hate' anyone. He wants you to play the game if it sounds fun regardless of what you think of him.

Not many have the stones to go four pages plus with this crowd.

  I do not disagree with that.  I own lots of stuff I do not play, and I could see myself giving this a look if for nothing else to take its place with the other 200 rpg books, but if it has the signals just to have them....it will probably be a pass.  I will wait for more previews  and ultimately to see it in the store before I pass that judgement though. 

Most of us hate this woke bullshit and can see the debilitating effect it has on our hobby, but we can't go alienating product producers who we might think are woke instigators. There is a lot of difference between how Evil Hat has acted with Thirsty Sword Lesbians and Mongoose Publishing is acting with Shield Maidens. We can't go jumping at shadows, especially when that shade has been cast by a questionable source like Shawn Driscoll (I'd still like to know what he posted on the Mongoose forums that was deleted, and if it even did happen). If we scream badwrongfun at the slightest provocation then we are no better than the woke scolds that we can't stand.

MongooseMatt is being cagey with a new product roll out and that is understandable. Best we can do is wait and see.

Just my two cents.

It looks like the same stuff we've all been seeing for the last 5-6 years in books, movies, TV, etc.

Writers no longer come up with interesting characters. Instead they default to making angry black lesbians with shaved heads and blue/pink colored hair. They even take things another step further by replacing existing iconic heroes with such characters.

Here's an interview video of the guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeH_TeAjxrs
He's woke. I'm voting with my wallet here and not sending any money to the guy.

Here was my post that was deleted by MongooseKat.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 06:40:34 PM
It looks like the same stuff we've all been seeing for the last 5-6 years in books, movies, TV, etc.

Writers no longer come up with interesting characters. Instead they default to making angry black lesbians with shaved heads and blue/pink colored hair. They even take things another step further by replacing existing iconic heroes with such characters.

  That might be working for them.  I do not know, I just know if that is the case with this, I won't be buying it.   It does look like it is on that trend, but as I said, I will give it a fair look.

I'm seconding Jeff and FingerRod.

I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill. Even to the degree that some of these statements can be construed as "virtue signaling", they're pretty tame compared to most. And given that this isn't even an established IP being taken over to promote woke stuff it's like: Who cares?

They can do with their own original IP whatever they want. It's not like they're spitting on an existing fandom.

Props to MongooseMatt for keeping his cool while walking into the fire.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 02:01:29 PM
Recently, we updated the Traveller Core Rulebook. The reason we did this is because we were coming to the end of a print run and so, obviously, needed to reprint. However, our graphics and art have massively improved since the rulebook was first printed, and so we completely reformatted the layout and commissioned new art.

That was why the rulebook was changed/updated.

While we were at it, we took the opportunity to make a few tweaks, including changing pronouns to they/them. This was not an effort at virtue signalling (aside from a forum post or two, we barely mentioned it), but simply because we knew more women were playing and we wanted the game to feel more welcoming to them. NO other reason for it.

Shield Maidens is the same. We really just want to be welcoming. We are not looking to shove anything down your throat.

I see...

Like I said. No RPGs have been deliberately unwelcoming. Why all the pronoun nonsense then? I mean, the 1st Vampire the Masquerade has been using both (he/she) for decades. Were they not being inclusive enough then?

Twitter is only 'one' aspect of the woke scolds. I perhaps should have included TBP crowd as well.

And I don't accept that this was not an effort to virtue signal on Mongoose's part. You've got to tonge the arse that feeds you am I right? $$$$$

I find it even funnier that you've popped on here to try and play both sides of the coin. On the one hand you're trying to placate us anti-woke scold types and on the other you're virtue signaling to the other side.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with diversity per se. But I really find it a bit insipid when companies try to latch on to an agenda and then try to pass it over to regular gamers who just want to play games. Companies are either complicit with this asymetrical censorship, or part of the problem.

Of course from my lefty perspective this is typical 'company man' behavior. I'm not blaming Mongoose Matt incidentally I'm sure he's a decent enough chap. He's just trying to sell us a product while trying to provide a semi-palatable narrative here. Then, he will be on TBP letting them know how inclusive/diverse the game is.

I'm just not buying it metaphorically or physically. I'm not against the game's concept, but I don't really like high fantasy stuff.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 08:26:53 PM
Considering that two days ago they tweeted out: Forget what you thought you knew, as Norse mythology only got the facts partly right, this isn't a surprise. They are just correcting the mistakes in Norse mythology based on the most recent scientific data.

Snorri Sturluson was a shitlord colonialist liar and his eddas are cultural imperialism. cough cough

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
They can do with their own original IP whatever they want. It's not like they're spitting on an existing fandom.

Well obviously. But we don't have to buy it either.

So, it's all good... And everyone gets to have a choice in the matter.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 08:34:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Yeah.... but it's a lot of fun doing it. ;D

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:35:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 08:34:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Yeah.... but it's a lot of fun doing it. ;D

Maybe, but it gets tiring when some schmuck tries to manipulate your stance into supporting their own private bullshit.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:48:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:35:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 08:34:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Yeah.... but it's a lot of fun doing it. ;D

Maybe, but it gets tiring when some schmuck tries to manipulate your stance into supporting their own private bullshit.

Yeah... But I'm not trying to get anyone to support anything. I'm just disputing what he's saying... And that's only for me.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:48:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:35:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 08:34:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Yeah.... but it's a lot of fun doing it. ;D

Maybe, but it gets tiring when some schmuck tries to manipulate your stance into supporting their own private bullshit.

If you find that tiring, then these forums must be absolutely exhausting for you.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:50:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:48:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:35:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 08:34:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Yeah.... but it's a lot of fun doing it. ;D

Maybe, but it gets tiring when some schmuck tries to manipulate your stance into supporting their own private bullshit.

Yeah... But I'm not trying to get anyone to support anything. I'm just disputing what he's saying... And that's only for me.

You aren't the OP. This thread looks like Shawn Driscoll got pissy because he got modded on the Mongoose Forums (five days ago!) and then tried to create some cross-forum drama here.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:57:20 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:50:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:48:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 08:35:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 08:34:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PM
I think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Say it's not so.

Ah... I see.
Yeah.... but it's a lot of fun doing it. ;D

Maybe, but it gets tiring when some schmuck tries to manipulate your stance into supporting their own private bullshit.

Yeah... But I'm not trying to get anyone to support anything. I'm just disputing what he's saying... And that's only for me.

You aren't the OP. This thread looks like Shawn Driscoll got pissy because he got modded on the Mongoose Forums (five days ago!) and then tried to create some cross-forum drama here.

Ah, I see.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
I mean, the 1st Vampire the Masquerade has been using both (he/she) for decades. Were they not being inclusive enough then?

Well these days, inclusive means no white males.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:57:20 PM
You aren't the OP. This thread looks like Shawn Driscoll got pissy because he got modded on the Mongoose Forums (five days ago!) and then tried to create some cross-forum drama here.

Ha! You're still pissed that you weren't able to make a living as a professional Mongoose Traveller Referee at cons.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 09:42:57 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 08:57:20 PM
You aren't the OP. This thread looks like Shawn Driscoll got pissy because he got modded on the Mongoose Forums (five days ago!) and then tried to create some cross-forum drama here.

Ha! You're still pissed that you weren't able to make a living as a professional Mongoose Traveller Referee at cons.

Every time you lie and say this it makes me laugh.

Now, why don't you provide some proof of that lie of yours, huh? You haven't since you started saying it and you cannot now.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PMI think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill. Even to the degree that some of these statements can be construed as "virtue signaling", they're pretty tame compared to most. And given that this isn't even an established IP being taken over to promote woke stuff it's like: Who cares?

They can do with their own original IP whatever they want. It's not like they're spitting on an existing fandom.

No, instead they're spitting on history and Western culture. Subversion and destruction of my people's history in any form is unacceptable.

And sure, this is a fairly minor thing, pretty tame compared to most. Doesn't matter. It crosses the line, and I won't abide that.

Letting "little things" slide is how we got to where we are today.

Yay. [/deadpan]

Not interested in this. Setting aside the potential for it being a forum drama pit, "Tough Chicks Who Kick Ass" has been done to death, and nothing about this RPG looks especially interesting or noteworthy.

Wake me if they post something worth talking about.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on March 12, 2022, 10:37:52 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 06:45:07 PMI think many here are making a mountain out of a molehill. Even to the degree that some of these statements can be construed as "virtue signaling", they're pretty tame compared to most. And given that this isn't even an established IP being taken over to promote woke stuff it's like: Who cares?

They can do with their own original IP whatever they want. It's not like they're spitting on an existing fandom.

No, instead they're spitting on history and Western culture. Subversion and destruction of my people's history in any form is unacceptable.

And sure, this is a fairly minor thing, pretty tame compared to most. Doesn't matter. It crosses the line, and I won't abide that.

Letting "little things" slide is how we got to where we are today.

Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

The only crapping Mongoose has done on Nordic culture is imply that (fictional) Shield Maidens can be trans (in a futuristic gonzo Cyberpunk setting, where trans people are probably not unheard of, on account of being a freaking transhumanist sci-fi genre) and someone adding some mention of "social justice" in a product description somewhere and a few other BS buzz words that would be completely innocuous to anyone not immersed in the culture war, which some people here decided to take the bait and take issue with.

Not that I disagree that it's SJW jargon with layers of hidden and double meaning. But someone inserting disingenuously divisive political BS into a work of fiction is not on its own crapping on anyone's culture.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 12, 2022, 10:49:22 PM
Yay. [/deadpan]

Not interested in this. Setting aside the potential for it being a forum drama pit, "Tough Chicks Who Kick Ass" has been done to death, and nothing about this RPG looks especially interesting or noteworthy.

Wake me if they post something worth talking about.

If they'll go after Tolkien's lore and Viking Lore. I'm guessing the Crusades will be next.

Cyber Trans-Shieldwahen Vikangz?

That's a no from me, dawg.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 06:40:34 PM
Here was my post that was deleted by MongooseKat.

It was not deleted by MongooseKat, nor anyone working at Mongoose. We have a couple of volunteers on our forums who typically spend their time deleting spam posts, and it was one of them who did this.

I was concerned that it had happened, as the number of times we have actively deleted non-spam posts over twenty years can perhaps be counted on two hands and generally only because of threatening behaviour (once, as I recall) and genuinely offensive stuff on a complete twonkish level. Basically, we like to keep a very light touch.

So, I spoke to the moderator to find out what had happened. A complaint from another forum user had drawn attention to the post and the moderator judged your post to not be a serious question and instead be deliberate 'bait'. Now, this bit is important: The moderator actually likes your posts in general and thinks you play a decent Devil's Advocate. They just felt that doing this on a thread that was effectively a press release was Not Cool, and decided to delete it. They did say to me that if you had posted the same thing in another thread, they would likely have not touched it.

If it had been me getting to it first... well, I might not have been best pleased with it popping up on a PR piece but I may have left it (light touch). If it had been in another thread, I would certainly have skipped it by.

However, to answer the question, assuming it was serious... no, not all men are evil. Most men are not evil in this universe, and there are some distinctly nasty women as well.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
Like I said. No RPGs have been deliberately unwelcoming. Why all the pronoun nonsense then? I mean, the 1st Vampire the Masquerade has been using both (he/she) for decades. Were they not being inclusive enough then?

I would say that switching between he/she is one way of doing it, they/them another. They/them sounds better/lighter to me, personally, and is a bit easier on the editorial level. I would not say one is more right, we have just chosen to go down one route rather than the other.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
And I don't accept that this was not an effort to virtue signal on Mongoose's part. You've got to tonge the arse that feeds you am I right? $$$$$

Okay, I am going to try not to sound like a complete twonk here (!). With the combination of Traveller, Paranoia and Sea of Thieves, Mongoose is in the happy position that we do not have to chase the $$$ or tongue any, umm, bottoms. We produce the games we want (and do) play ourselves, and it is a happy coincidence that enough people like them sufficiently to support our company.

With Shield Maidens, we are not chasing a trend. We walked into the office one day and said 'wouldn't it be whizz-o-whizz if we wrote a game that did this?' Which is pretty much how we do most of our books.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
I'm not blaming Mongoose Matt incidentally I'm sure he's a decent enough chap. He's just trying to sell us a product

Whoa, whoa, I am not trying to sell you anything :) I entered this thread, not because of the original post, but because someone made an incorrect statement about us (that we were taking government money to push an agenda). I just wanted to correct that, but I am happy enough to stick around and answer questions.

I have been lurking (and doing a few small posts) on these forums for a little while, and I figured Shield Maidens would not have a massive audience here - which is why we did not make any posts about it in the News and Adverts forum, as we have started to do with Traveller.

I do not expect to make a sale here. I just like talking about games :)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 09:37:44 PM
Well these days, inclusive means no white males.

It does not mean that to me, or anyone else at Mongoose. I cannot speak for anyone else.

If it is not obvious, I am a middle-aged, straight white male. I like to be included in things and have not found a massive amount of barriers stopping me from being so.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 04:27:47 AM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 06:40:34 PM
Here was my post that was deleted by MongooseKat.

It was not deleted by MongooseKat, nor anyone working at Mongoose. We have a couple of volunteers on our forums who typically spend their time deleting spam posts, and it was one of them who did this.

I was concerned that it had happened, as the number of times we have actively deleted non-spam posts over twenty years can perhaps be counted on two hands and generally only because of threatening behaviour (once, as I recall) and genuinely offensive stuff on a complete twonkish level. Basically, we like to keep a very light touch.

So, I spoke to the moderator to find out what had happened. A complaint from another forum user had drawn attention to the post and the moderator judged your post to not be a serious question and instead be deliberate 'bait'. Now, this bit is important: The moderator actually likes your posts in general and thinks you play a decent Devil's Advocate. They just felt that doing this on a thread that was effectively a press release was Not Cool, and decided to delete it. They did say to me that if you had posted the same thing in another thread, they would likely have not touched it.

If it had been me getting to it first... well, I might not have been best pleased with it popping up on a PR piece but I may have left it (light touch). If it had been in another thread, I would certainly have skipped it by.

However, to answer the question, assuming it was serious... no, not all men are evil. Most men are not evil in this universe, and there are some distinctly nasty women as well.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
Like I said. No RPGs have been deliberately unwelcoming. Why all the pronoun nonsense then? I mean, the 1st Vampire the Masquerade has been using both (he/she) for decades. Were they not being inclusive enough then?

I would say that switching between he/she is one way of doing it, they/them another. They/them sounds better/lighter to me, personally, and is a bit easier on the editorial level. I would not say one is more right, we have just chosen to go down one route rather than the other.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
And I don't accept that this was not an effort to virtue signal on Mongoose's part. You've got to tonge the arse that feeds you am I right? $$$$$

Okay, I am going to try not to sound like a complete twonk here (!). With the combination of Traveller, Paranoia and Sea of Thieves, Mongoose is in the happy position that we do not have to chase the $$$ or tongue any, umm, bottoms. We produce the games we want (and do) play ourselves, and it is a happy coincidence that enough people like them sufficiently to support our company.

With Shield Maidens, we are not chasing a trend. We walked into the office one day and said 'wouldn't it be whizz-o-whizz if we wrote a game that did this?' Which is pretty much how we do most of our books.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 12, 2022, 07:19:58 PM
I'm not blaming Mongoose Matt incidentally I'm sure he's a decent enough chap. He's just trying to sell us a product

Whoa, whoa, I am not trying to sell you anything :) I entered this thread, not because of the original post, but because someone made an incorrect statement about us (that we were taking government money to push an agenda). I just wanted to correct that, but I am happy enough to stick around and answer questions.

I have been lurking (and doing a few small posts) on these forums for a little while, and I figured Shield Maidens would not have a massive audience here - which is why we did not make any posts about it in the News and Adverts forum, as we have started to do with Traveller.

I do not expect to make a sale here. I just like talking about games :)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 09:37:44 PM
Well these days, inclusive means no white males.

It does not mean that to me, or anyone else at Mongoose. I cannot speak for anyone else.

If it is not obvious, I am a middle-aged, straight white male. I like to be included in things and have not found a massive amount of barriers stopping me from being so.

Hmm... I suspect you went the they/them route to tick all the boxes, as the TBP would like you to.

So, as Mongoose you're not chasing cash then? Or altering your products to make them more appealing - Or 'updating' as you call it? Riiiiiight....

I never said Shield Maidens was just created just to follow a trend. But not having them being born a woman and 'updating' the language is definitely done just to appeal to a certain type of RPGer.

I don't know anything about you (or mongoose) getting any government money. So I can't comment on that.

Well, you obviously don't like talking too much about games here, as you've only got just over thirty posts.

The upshot is, I personally don't believe you're here for the reasons you say you are. Other people are free to disagree of course.

Lastly, I will say the art for Sheildmaides is fantastic. Credit where credit is due.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Hmm... I suspect you went the they/them route to tick all the boxes, as the TBP would like you to.

I am telling you we did not, and have explained the reasons why we did do this.

However, I am afraid I do not know who or what TBP is/are.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Well, you obviously don't like talking too much about games here, as you've only got just over thirty posts.

Give me a chance, I only found out about this forum, what, two or three months-ish ago! Kept an eye on it most days to get a feel for things - and here I am!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
The upshot is, I personally don't believe you're here for the reasons you say you are. Other people are free to disagree of course.

Okay... But here is the problem with that. Here, you are flat out calling me a liar - and I am not sure I have done anything against you to make you think that. I have tried to be as open and honest as I can, and you seem to be saying that it does not matter what I say to you, you will simply think I am lying.

I am not sure we can progress very far under those terms.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Lastly, I will say the art for Sheildmaides is fantastic. Credit where credit is due.

I do appreciate that, thank you.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 08:36:43 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Hmm... I suspect you went the they/them route to tick all the boxes, as the TBP would like you to.

I am telling you we did not, and have explained the reasons why we did do this.

However, I am afraid I do not know who or what TBP is/are.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Well, you obviously don't like talking too much about games here, as you've only got just over thirty posts.

Give me a chance, I only found out about this forum, what, two or three months-ish ago! Kept an eye on it most days to get a feel for things - and here I am!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
The upshot is, I personally don't believe you're here for the reasons you say you are. Other people are free to disagree of course.

Okay... But here is the problem with that. Here, you are flat out calling me a liar - and I am not sure I have done anything against you to make you think that. I have tried to be as open and honest as I can, and you seem to be saying that it does not matter what I say to you, you will simply think I am lying.

I am not sure we can progress very far under those terms.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 08:21:37 AM
Lastly, I will say the art for Sheildmaides is fantastic. Credit where credit is due.

I do appreciate that, thank you.

I think the term "liar" is a bit strong to be fair.

To keep things simple and civil. I think you're here to try and promote your game. Nothing really wrong with that. But I think some of the directions you've chosen to go with SM are to please the woke scolds of the big purple crowd.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 09:37:44 PM
Well these days, inclusive means no white males.

Except for white males who self-identify as "they", ofc.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 08:36:43 AM
However, I am afraid I do not know who or what TBP is/are.

RPG.net - lots of purple in their layout. Hence The Big Purple, TBP.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 02:11:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2022, 01:37:57 PM
Okay, let me see if I got it right, shield maidens don't have to be born women? Or they do have to be born women? It's a simple enough question I think.

It is indeed. They do not have to be born women.

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I'm not a fan of the pronoun stuff, but at the same time it's become so commonplace (even starting way back in the 90s) It's hard to hold one poster's balls to the fire just cuz their company decided to "update" their books with "they/them" pronouns. Is it pandering or caving in to the woke crowd? Sure. But demanding that they not do it or at least getting upset if they do feels almost like forcing them to pick a side on the culture war. And pronouns are so innocuous (I even avoid being gender specific sometimes, unless I'm taking about a specific person or character) they hardly register on my radar.

I do think bringing up stuff like "diversity" or "inclusivity" starts to veer closer to more egregious stuff, because it implies that if you don't agree with them or have some type of objection for any reason you must be some kind of bigot. When in reality "diversity" in the current political climate tends to be code for shoehorning certain identity groups just to tick off boxes in the name of "representation", which itself carries a bunch of implications. Like the idea that every group needs to be explicitly "represented", otherwise you're "excluding" them cuz you didn't mention them specifically (you bigot), or that all decent people agree that seeing their own personal identity group included in every work of fiction is of some paramount importance, and the failure to do so constitutes some personal slight against them. It also places you in a position where you have to defend setting specific stuff such as "knights can't be female" (in a historically authentic game), like that's any more egregious than "Valkyries must be female".

Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 08:31:55 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 12, 2022, 08:27:31 AM
They couldn't have added towel boys for people who wanted to play men in a game about shield maidens?

They'll be there. We have rules for a type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them.

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:34:00 AM
Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Where's that? I'd love to read it. lol

But seriously, I agree once you, once you bring up the topic of diversity and inclusivity then you are opening up a whole can of ugly worms. The mods on that site should have shut it down. But at the same time, now that it's been brought up. I'm not allowing them to bleat out a load of emotive bs without at least backing that shit up.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 09:48:12 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:34:00 AM
Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Where's that? I'd love to read it. lol

But seriously, I agree once you, once you bring up the topic of diversity and inclusivity then you are opening up a whole can of ugly worms. The mods on that site should have shut it down. But at the same time, now that it's been brought up. I'm not allowing them to bleat out a load of emotive bs without at least backing that shit up.

I was itching to reply to that post. Like, dude...the EXTREME majority of RPGs let you play whatever. Just cuz like two games in history specify that certain classes/professions can't be female for valid setting-specific reasons is not any more evidence of discrimination than saying "Shield Maidens and Valkyries can't be male". And the idea of male Valkyries would be RIDICULOUS.

Just cuz women can join the military now and that's become a cultural sticking point in the modern age that doesn't mean we can never play a historically authentic game set in Medieval or ancient Europe where only men can be Knights or whatever, or that trans-Knights must be included too, like people in the ancient world even knew WTF trans people are.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 01:41:23 PM
  So the all female sisterhood is out to topple the evil empire that does not want any diversity?  Is the evil empire all white dudes?  Interesting blurb here in a bit I read online.

QuoteAs the agents of Fenrir try to stifle free thought and social justice, crush individuality and deny diversity, the Shield Maidens stand tall, a beacon of light to all living beings within the nine realms.

Fenrir sound like the totalitarian Left. I doubt that was the intention.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 04:27:47 AM
If it is not obvious, I am a middle-aged, straight white male. I like to be included in things and have not found a massive amount of barriers stopping me from being so.

Of course not, the only "barriers" for anyone getting into gaming are those erected by themselves. Everything else is illusory -- or more often defamatory.

A lot of us think it's pretty obviously racist/sexist when a game goes out of its way to explicitly be "welcoming" to a singular gender/race group. Because we don't like judging people by their skin color or gender, and that includes whether or not they should be "welcomed".

What bothers me the most is the way statements like "trans characters are OK too!" perpetuate that defamation. Because the implication is that trans characters are not OK elsewhere. i.e., the same reason you don't feel the need for the game to "welcome" straight white men.

No, it's not true that other games (ours), or other gamers (us!) exclude the people your game "welcomes", and the insinuation is gross.

FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 10:17:01 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 09:48:12 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 09:34:00 AM
Someone brought this up elsewhere (in a board where political discussions can't be had) and it's already devolving into politics.

Where's that? I'd love to read it. lol

But seriously, I agree once you, once you bring up the topic of diversity and inclusivity then you are opening up a whole can of ugly worms. The mods on that site should have shut it down. But at the same time, now that it's been brought up. I'm not allowing them to bleat out a load of emotive bs without at least backing that shit up.

I was itching to reply to that post. Like, dude...the EXTREME majority of RPGs let you play whatever. Just cuz like two games in history specify that certain classes/professions can't be female for valid setting-specific reasons is not any more evidence of discrimination than saying "Shield Maidens and Valkyries can't be male". And the idea of male Valkyries would be RIDICULOUS.

Just cuz women can join the military now and that's become a cultural sticking point in the modern age that doesn't mean we can never play a historically authentic game set in Medieval or ancient Europe where only men can be Knights or whatever, or that trans-Knights must be included too, like people in the ancient world even knew WTF trans people are.

Yeah, I hear ya'... I'll probably get a slap on the wrist for replying to that mumbo jumbo over yonder. How many boxes will us straight white dudes have to tick? Just to get a few virtual backslaps from people who are trying to control 'your' game. And just who sets those standards anyway?

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I think that would be fair, yes.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

The rules are not finalised yet, but no, that would make no sense. The power levels need to be the same.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

That is not really how the initial development went (might well have been watching the shield maidens in Vikings and thought, 'this is good, but needs more cyberpunk...'), but sure, would not necessarily have been ruled out. Put another way, we would have no issues doing, say, an RPG based on 40k Space Marines.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I think that would be fair, yes.

Given that it is a fantasy/cyberpunk game and not real-life, I can see how that could be (e.g., nano-bots perform the transition at the genetic level).

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

The rules are not finalised yet, but no, that would make no sense. The power levels need to be the same.

Understood.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

That is not really how the initial development went (might well have been watching the shield maidens in Vikings and thought, 'this is good, but needs more cyberpunk...'), but sure, would not necessarily have been ruled out. Put another way, we would have no issues doing, say, an RPG based on 40k Space Marines.

Understood.


Sounds reasonable to me. Best of luck to you.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM

Does that mean: woman = born biological female + born biological male and subsequently transitioned to a "woman" (i.e., trans woman)?

I think that would be fair, yes.

Let me see if I understand you, on a cyberpunk game, mongoose felt the need to specify that shieldmaidens don't need to be born as women.

In a game, whose genre has ALWAYS included transpeople ever since the first printing of Cyberpunk 2013...

When Cyberpunk 2077 (The video game) was about to come out, some people tried to make a fuss about it including trans people, guess what we who know the genre said? Well duh! of course it includes transpeople! it's a setting where body modification is very common place!

Now, you might start to have an inkling as to why we think this was made to pander to a certain demographic, that mostly don't buy/play RPGs (not talking about trans people, but about political activists on TBP/Twitter).

THEN you add the pronouns thing. AND the fighting "fascists" thing. And the use of terms like "inclusivity" & "diversity". People ARE going to think (correctly IMHO) this was all made to pander to said political activists.

I'm a Maya, do you honestly think that not having Mayans in game X means I'm not going to want to play it or enjoy it as much as if it had them?

I'm also an autist, do you honestly think that game X not stating that autists are welcome (autists being over represented in the hobby as it is) means we aren't going to want to play or enjoy it as much as it it stated so?

Please provide an example, not Myfarog, of a game where ANY difference between the sexes/races is present and it's not justified by trying to better emulate the setting. Even Pundit's L&D explicity allows for women where you would find either none or almost none in a real world medieval society.

Worst you can find IIRC is the fact that women PCs used to have bonuses and penalties in ther Attributes way back when. But even that wasn't made to try an exclude anyone.

You honestly think we geeks didn't want women who shared our hobbies? Women that didn't look/thought of us as lesser because of our interests?

You honestly think we wouldn't have welcome a person of whatever race/sex/sexuality because of their race/sex/sexuality? I'm sure that very early one you could have found SOME people like that, but, by the very nature of their attitudes they would have very fast found themselves without a table/group to play at/with.

And we do find it offensive when someone casts asperssions about our character/hobbies by implying that NOW, that someone has finally made it "inclusive" and "diverse".

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM

Are the Shield Maidens more powerful than the "type of character who is not a Shield Maiden but fights alongside them" (i.e., the hero and the sidekick)?

The rules are not finalised yet, but no, that would make no sense. The power levels need to be the same.

In short you don't know, but in your opinion it shouldn't be the case.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
If the sexes were flipped, (i.e., male Shield Lads, and the female type of character who is not a Shield Lad but fights alongside them), would Mongoose have been interested in publishing the game?

That is not really how the initial development went (might well have been watching the shield maidens in Vikings and thought, 'this is good, but needs more cyberpunk...'), but sure, would not necessarily have been ruled out. Put another way, we would have no issues doing, say, an RPG based on 40k Space Marines.

I believe you, doesn't mean that pandering to political activists wasn't on the developers minds or on someone above them that made them include it.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

Yep, yep. Published by FFG in 2010. Appears to be OOP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathwatch_(role-playing_game)
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/category/roleplaying-games
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=deathwatch&manufacturers_id=6&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

Quote from: Slambo on March 13, 2022, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

The irony is that a female space marine would look almost identical to a male one after the enhancements. So GW could just say that and not have to make any other changes.

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 02:17:21 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

Yep, yep. Published by FFG in 2010. Appears to be OOP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathwatch_(role-playing_game)
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/category/roleplaying-games
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=deathwatch&manufacturers_id=6&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

I also played their Dark Heresy 2 game and had an Adepta Sororitas (female) PC. She eventually made it be a Battle Sister and kicked ass with a hand flamer and chainsword (had a superiors power sword briefly, but had to return it after the mission).

Quote from: Slambo on March 13, 2022, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

Someone even brought up older version of Pendragon having Knights being required to be male as an example of "games non-inclusive by design" in a similar discussion involving Shield Maidens in another board. And I thought that game was supposed to be pretty Medieval authentic (at least in a legendary context), but apparently you can't have male-only knights in a hard core medieval world. I've seen people complain about video games without female options in character creation all the time too, at least with every single game coming out the past decade or so.

And note that nobody, even here, is complaining about the lack of male Shield Maidens. If only the complain has been that the game allows biological males/transwomen to be Shield Maidens, which is a weird hill to die on, regarding a cyberpunk game. So absolutely NOBODY cares about women-only organizations in ANY game (just transwomen being allowed, cuz fuck SJWs, apparently). It's only when the reverse is true (often in completely setting-appropriate contexts) that the world falls apart.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 03:29:06 PM

Quote from: Slambo on March 13, 2022, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:04:08 PM

Quote from: dkabq on March 13, 2022, 12:51:16 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
FYI, I don't want to be represented in a game about Shield Maidens—or at least within Shield Maiden organizations. And if I were to play a character from such an org, I insist that my character be female. Things don't have to be about me or have a picture of me included for me to like them.

I agree with that sentiment. But it begs the question of whether if you created an analogous game with Shield Lads (must be male), would that game be lambasted by the "social justice goblin(s)" as misogynist, patriarchal, etc?

There's a game called Deathwatch where all PCs are biologically male (before genetic, bionic, and surgical modifications).

To be fair, people do lambast GW about space marines being all male all the time.

Someone even brought up older version of Pendragon having Knights being required to be male as an example of "games non-inclusive by design" in a similar discussion involving Shield Maidens in another board. And I thought that game was supposed to be pretty Medieval authentic (at least in a legendary context), but apparently you can't have male-only knights in a hard core medieval world. I've seen people complain about video games without female options in character creation all the time too, at least with every single game coming out the past decade or so.

And note that nobody, even here, is complaining about the lack of male Shield Maidens. If only the complain has been that the game allows biological males/transwomen to be Shield Maidens, which is a weird hill to die on, regarding a cyberpunk game. So absolutely NOBODY cares about women-only organizations in ANY game (just transwomen being allowed, cuz fuck SJWs, apparently). It's only when the reverse is true (often in completely setting-appropriate contexts) that the world falls apart.

I think the real issue people have with this is the obvious pandering. I remember when Cyberpunk 2077 was about to be released WE were saying trans people in that setting ISN'T pandering because it has always have them.

Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

I would totally play a woman in ANY game, even one with sex based bonuses/penalties, I would totally play Cyberpunk 2013/2020/2077/Red and have exactly ZERO issue with transpeople in it.

Who was it that had an issue with Cyberpunk 2077? The D.I.E. cult.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

  Did he ever really play in games?  Or was he always lurking around other people's games and giving advice, opinions, and stories about his epic games?

Quote from: oggsmash on March 14, 2022, 01:33:39 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

  Did he ever really play in games?  Or was he always lurking around other people's games and giving advice, opinions, and stories about his epic games?

I've played at least one con session with a CPM. I also knew a CPB in high school. So yes.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's my big issue with all this childish nonsense... If RPGs were originally 'unwelcoming' or designed specifically to segregate certain people, then they'd have a very valid point, but nothing could be further from the truth.

This is all about trying to appease some vestigial guilt that they harbor, and one they are trying to pass over on to everyone else. Thus, making sure we all conform to their childish standards.

Sod off says I.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's like using the most inbred motherfucker as a positive to say a family is inclusive because they didn't exclude uncle-dad/brother-cousin from the family photo.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 14, 2022, 05:18:56 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's like using the most inbred motherfucker as a positive to say a family is inclusive because they didn't exclude uncle-dad/brother-cousin from the family photo.

That's not an apt example at all. It wasn't just one event, but it was allowing people who would otherwise have no social contact at all to have regular social contact.

Gamers, as a whole, are extremely inclusive. That's what makes the modern virtue signalling so insulting.

It would be another matter if they were to say 'tabletop RPGs have always been an inclusive hobby, and whoever you are, you can definitely play'. That's just repeating the obvious, but we also have a 'what is an RPG?' section in every book, so that wouldn't hurt.

Shield Maiden's... Yawn... How about a Battle Maiden ;) lol

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:08:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 14, 2022, 05:18:56 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 01:32:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 13, 2022, 06:00:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Add to that the "inclusive", "diversity", "welcoming" spiel and you have a 100% pandering to political activists game.

That sums it up nicely.

Same lingo day in and day out... Those three little words used exclusively by the woke scolds every single time.

The thing that gets me is the implication that RPGs weren't inclusive before. Hell the reason for memes like the Cat-Piss-Man is because we were so damn inclusive we included even CPM in our games.

That's like using the most inbred motherfucker as a positive to say a family is inclusive because they didn't exclude uncle-dad/brother-cousin from the family photo.

That's not an apt example at all. It wasn't just one event, but it was allowing people who would otherwise have no social contact at all to have regular social contact.

Gamers, as a whole, are extremely inclusive. That's what makes the modern virtue signalling so insulting.

It would be another matter if they were to say 'tabletop RPGs have always been an inclusive hobby, and whoever you are, you can definitely play'. That's just repeating the obvious, but we also have a 'what is an RPG?' section in every book, so that wouldn't hurt.

Yes.  That's what makes this whole gaslighting so infuriating.  There has never been an exclusionary aspect of gamers as a whole.  For us, it was always about the love of the game.  From the very beginning it was gamers who were mocked, ridiculed, and excluded.  Now that we survived and came out on top they want in, but in order to justify it they need to pretend they weren't the a-holes, we were.

Yea, it's a pretty bitter pill to swallow, seeing revisionist history in action.
Guess we were bullies and socially critical of other people.
I must have been gaming with the wrong crew and missed that whole movement.

The problem RE: the "inclusive" BS is that there are aspects of it that sound plausible to some people from a very low resolution PoV, cuz there's this narrative that's been sold to us (going back to the 90's at least) that people need to see "themselves" in media in order to feel "represented" in it. And that not seeing yourself "represented" in media is supposed to be this traumatic experience that causes you to disassociate from reality or feel not wanted/belonging or something, but that presumed white people wouldn't be able to understand cuz they've seen people who look just like them in movies or TTRPG book art all their lives (cuz they all look alike apparently, and seeing any old white person in a pic will do).

So you don't know how good you've got it seeing pics of yourself all your life in every bit of media you consume. But think of all the black people who've never seen Sisko in Star Trek DS9, or Blade, or Shaft (before I was even born), etc. And it turns into this navel gazing assumption that 1) people desperately NEED to "see themselves" in media (newsflash: even if you're black and you see DS9, you probably don't look like Sisko and you're definitely NOT the Emissary of the Prophets), and that 2) such media doesn't even exist, like we're living in the early 1900s.

But, of course, this is the part where the goalposts change, and now we've brought up actual examples of non-whites "represented" in media the argument becomes that there haven't been enough, or that there haven't been transpeople in it, or every time you look at a couple they're straight, etc. When the claim that "people need to feel represented in media" hasn't even been substantiated to begin with. Cuz the thing about that claim is that it's simply asserted into existence without proper substantiation about whether it's true or not. It's just assumed that it is, cuz obviously it must be true (wouldn't it?).

So the burden of proof is shifted onto the people who object to such a notion. A no amount of bringing up cartoons with talking animals and such, and not a single human in them, will dissuade them from the idea that you somehow need to see people who look "just like you" in media in order to relate to it. So they just keep repeating it ad nauseam, cuz obviously "representation" is important, it just HAS to be!

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 06:49:04 AM
When the claim that "people need to feel represented in media" hasn't even been substantiated to begin with.

Indeed. Honestly, I've never felt "represented" by "traditional" eurocentric fantasy tropes because they are all also very Anglocentric. As a Baltic/Slavic/Romani Jew, that just isn't me at all. D&D itself was aswarm with Christianity from the beginning.

Never stopped me or even gave me pause.
I would (and have) also gladly play games where my character is African.
Or Asian.
Or Monstrous.
Or Alien.

Newsflash for the SJWs and everyone else: no one plays RPGs to represent themselves.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on March 15, 2022, 02:22:14 AM
Yea, it's a pretty bitter pill to swallow, seeing revisionist history in action.
Guess we were bullies and socially critical of other people.
I must have been gaming with the wrong crew and missed that whole movement.

I didn't see too much of the excluding/bullying within rpg groups, but there was some between different rpg groups. This always seemed more based upon gaming styles than race/gender lines. OTOH, I sa a lot of crap flung between needs with different tastes: card gamers vs. tabletop rpgs vs. LARPers vs. Warhammer players (and even between fantasy and 40K players). There was a lot of One True Way (to be a nerd), bu it was not based upon skin, religion, sexual preference (though that one rarely came up publicly in what i saw of 80s/90s gaming groups) or genitals.

The more that I think about this after MongooseMatt has replied the more I think that these Shield Maidens are the apex warriors of this game and that , like Loki has in both lore and movies, people can choose to transform themselves or be "reborn" as Shield Maidens through some sort of process that is specific to this setting.

In this way Mongoose can say that "Not all shield maidens were born female" and this not be some sort of wokescold, SJW, witchhunt due to the game setting having people of both sexes striving and wanting to become these Ultimate Warriors.

I'm fine with this concept as we've had creatures transform into other races in D&D since the dawn of this game and also in Lore (Zeus is a horny god) and Mythology.

I could be utterly wrong but insofar as I've read by MM there doesn't seem to be a case here of pandering to the extreme.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 15, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
The more that I think about this after MongooseMatt has replied the more I think that these Shield Maidens are the apex warriors of this game and that , like Loki has in both lore and movies, people can choose to transform themselves or be "reborn" as Shield Maidens through some sort of process that is specific to this setting.

In this way Mongoose can say that "Not all shield maidens were born female" and this not be some sort of wokescold, SJW, witchhunt due to the game setting having people of both sexes striving and wanting to become these Ultimate Warriors.

I'm fine with this concept as we've had creatures transform into other races in D&D since the dawn of this game and also in Lore (Zeus is a horny god) and Mythology.

I could be utterly wrong but insofar as I've read by MM there doesn't seem to be a case here of pandering to the extreme.

It's quite possible that MM and Mongoose don't have a particular agenda to push and are just going with the flow.

But I wonder does the writer/creator have any such leanings? I'm just a guy asking questions.

This is from Cybe's Website.
"They have a degree in Film & Media with a minor in sociology and media, they are non-binary and their pronouns are they/them and was born in Scotland. They currently live in England, and are co-manager of a large gaming club, and have written extensively on inclusion and positive representation within the gaming community in particular with relation to LGBTQ+ and transgender visibility in several gaming publications and blogs."

Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:49:58 AM
Indeed. Honestly, I've never felt "represented" by "traditional" eurocentric fantasy tropes because they are all also very Anglocentric. As a Baltic/Slavic/Romani Jew, that just isn't me at all. D&D itself was aswarm with Christianity from the beginning.

  And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 15, 2022, 11:12:34 AM
And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game. :)

Well, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

And didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:11:48 AM


It's quite possible that MM and Mongoose don't have a particular agenda to push and are just going with the flow.

But I wonder does the writer/creator have any such leanings? I'm just a guy asking questions.

This is from Cybe's Website.
"They have a degree in Film & Media with a minor in sociology and media, they are non-binary and their pronouns are they/them and was born in Scotland. They currently live in England, and are co-manager of a large gaming club, and have written extensively on inclusion and positive representation within the gaming community in particular with relation to LGBTQ+ and transgender visibility in several gaming publications and blogs."

Well that book is quite fucked then as I had  no idea the author literally was the Penultimate SJW as nothing in that bio leads me to believe there isn't an agenda being pushed in with an axe handle.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 15, 2022, 11:34:23 AM
Well that book is quite fucked then as I had  no idea the author literally was the Penultimate SJW

To be honest neither did I. I just thought Mongoose were checking boxes while following the latest woke scold playbook.

But I was curious who Cybe was as I'd never heard of them.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:15:11 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 15, 2022, 11:12:34 AM
And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game. :)

Well, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

And didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

  No, the jack chicks guy and evangelists are not exactly representative of Christians IME.   Not sure about the parallel between culture appropriation and middle east....a religion is adopted, not appropriated. 

  As to some red flags with the book...yeah there are more flags than the sex of the protagonist heroes.  I will withhold judgement till release though.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 15, 2022, 11:57:16 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:15:11 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 15, 2022, 11:12:34 AM
And speaking as a Christian, WotC has spent the past twenty years appropriating my culture and erasing me from the game. :)

Well, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

And didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

  No, the jack chicks guy and evangelists are not exactly representative of Christians IME.   Not sure about the parallel between culture appropriation and middle east....a religion is adopted, not appropriated.

True. I suppose it would depend on how 'extreme' the Christian is.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 15, 2022, 11:59:26 AM
  As to some red flags with the book...yeah there are more flags than the sex of the protagonist heroes.  I will withhold judgement till release though.

Of course, one can still enjoy a product even if you don't agree with the author's viewpoints.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 11:11:48 AM
This is from Cybe's Website.
"they/them and was born in Scotland."

I'd love to hear from the folks who argue for a singular definitive "they" being perfectly common and fluid grammar. Care to defend this one?

Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:49:58 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 06:49:04 AM
When the claim that "people need to feel represented in media" hasn't even been substantiated to begin with.

Indeed. Honestly, I've never felt "represented" by "traditional" eurocentric fantasy tropes because they are all also very Anglocentric. As a Baltic/Slavic/Romani Jew, that just isn't me at all. D&D itself was aswarm with Christianity from the beginning.

Never stopped me or even gave me pause.
I would (and have) also gladly play games where my character is African.
Or Asian.
Or Monstrous.
Or Alien.

Yeah, and another thing that flies in the face of the idea of "representation" is the popularity of Asian culture and themes in media and RPGs, like "Fung Fu" flicks, etc. If the presumed white Western audience is so desperate to see their white European faces represented in media, then where does this fascination with Far East culture and willingness to play Asian characters in RPGs comes from? I'm sure they'd tell me its "exoticism".

QuoteNewsflash for the SJWs and everyone else: no one plays RPGs to represent themselves.

This is also something I mentioned in the "What Part of the Gaming Experience, is the part that Grabs You Most? (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/what-part-of-the-gaming-experience-is-the-part-that-grabs-you-most/)" thread. One of the things that pulls me the most into playing RPGs is the opportunity to play characters who aren't me. I can't even fathom playing "me" in a game. That's what doing stuff like training martial arts or learning new non-work related skills IRL is for. RPGs are for stepping away from your life and looking at different perspectives inaccessible to you, not trying to carbon copy a life you can already live IRL into the game.

The absolute ONLY people who want to see themselves in everything are the ones pushing an identitarian political agenda. Because sociology and identity politics has worked backwards from this presumption of "representation", and now that the assumption has been made it just has to be reasserted and pushed into everything, rather than examining whether or not that's even true.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 15, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
The more that I think about this after MongooseMatt has replied the more I think that these Shield Maidens are the apex warriors of this game and that , like Loki has in both lore and movies, people can choose to transform themselves or be "reborn" as Shield Maidens through some sort of process that is specific to this setting.

In this way Mongoose can say that "Not all shield maidens were born female" and this not be some sort of wokescold, SJW, witchhunt due to the game setting having people of both sexes striving and wanting to become these Ultimate Warriors.

I'm fine with this concept as we've had creatures transform into other races in D&D since the dawn of this game and also in Lore (Zeus is a horny god) and Mythology.

I could be utterly wrong but insofar as I've read by MM there doesn't seem to be a case here of pandering to the extreme.

I doubt that it will be that way, but I don't even mind, cuz the concept of Shield Maidens kicking ass in a fictional world is fine and they're the primary drawing factor in the game. Plus like you mention, it's not like elements of people gender swapping or transforming into other creatures through shapeshifting magic don't exist in mythology already.

I don't even mind about most of this stuff. If they hadn't included that stuff about "social justice" and "diversity" in that quote oggsmash posted a couple pages back, I wouldn't have been drawn into this discussion.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 15, 2022, 12:04:12 PM
Yeah, and another thing that flies in the face of the idea of "representation" is the popularity of Asian culture and themes in media and RPGs, like "Fung Fu" flicks, etc. If the presumed white Western audience is so desperate to see their white European faces represented in media, then where does this fascination with Far East culture and willingness to play Asian characters in RPGs comes from? I'm sure they'd tell me its "exoticism".

What the Asian's always 'forget' to mention is that they were only too delighted to 'sell' us their culture/media/food. Then some got butthurt because we liked it a bit too much, and wanted more of it.

Christ! How much money have they been milking from those phony traditional martial arts schools since the 1920s?

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 12, 2022, 03:01:38 AM

On the other hand, if anyone has any questions about Shield Maidens (or any of our other games, for that matter), well, that is what I am here for!

OK.  What is the game setting?  From the description, it looks to be the love child of WH40K and Bellum Maga, with a little bit of Star Wars thrown in.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 12:04:02 PM
Of course, one can still enjoy a product even if you don't agree with the author's viewpoints.

Not sure if a radicalized SJW can keep their politics out of an RPG they designed. Especially someone suffering from TDS.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 15, 2022, 06:31:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 12:04:02 PM
Of course, one can still enjoy a product even if you don't agree with the author's viewpoints.

Not sure if a radicalized SJW can keep their politics out of an RPG they designed. Especially someone suffering from TDS.

That's my problem with the modern Left, it's a religious cult more than a viewpoint.  Their cult infects their product, more so than any viewpoint.  I enjoy watching South Korean movies and TV because they can tell a story, make it interesting, and the characters are written with strengths and flaws to admire or empathize.  When it comes to Leftism I avoid their works for the same reason I don't watch North Korean movies or TV.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 15, 2022, 06:31:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 12:04:02 PM
Of course, one can still enjoy a product even if you don't agree with the author's viewpoints.

Not sure if a radicalized SJW can keep their politics out of an RPG they designed. Especially someone suffering from TDS.

Or a cunt with a boring as fuck YouTube channel who can't stop lying in their own posts because they want attention via cross-forum drama.

Where's that proof you got that:

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 12, 2022, 09:42:57 PM
Ha! You're still pissed that you weren't able to make a living as a professional Mongoose Traveller Referee at cons.

Huh, bitch? WHERE IS YOUR FUCKING PROOF YOU SNIVELING COLOSTOMY BAG OF A PERSON?!?

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 15, 2022, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 15, 2022, 06:31:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 15, 2022, 12:04:02 PM
Of course, one can still enjoy a product even if you don't agree with the author's viewpoints.

Not sure if a radicalized SJW can keep their politics out of an RPG they designed. Especially someone suffering from TDS.

That's my problem with the modern Left, it's a religious cult more than a viewpoint.  Their cult infects their product, more so than any viewpoint.  I enjoy watching South Korean movies and TV because they can tell a story, make it interesting, and the characters are written with strengths and flaws to admire or empathize.  When it comes to Leftism I avoid their works for the same reason I don't watch North Korean movies or TV.

Yup. "Leftist" media is just indoctrination and virtue signaling tools now. They eat, breathe, and sleep activism. The worst part is that they're misogynistic, racist, and homophobic while hypocritically claiming to fight for the rights of oppressed people.

Well.. me.
I think it looks like a fun crazy future Norse cyber women game.
Doesn't upset my cisgendered hetero soul to be asked to play persons of female gender, trans or otherwise.. it's a role-playing game..
There are lots of male archetypes in the hobby, I like the idea of playing a hardass female..
Oh and social justice is a cause I could see my character fighting for.. wish I did it more IRL, but I do my best researching how to mitigate climate change.

Quote from: silencio789 on March 20, 2022, 11:53:45 AM
I like the idea of playing a hardass female.

But that's not really the issue here is it? Nothing at all wrong with playing a female badass or otherwise.

Quote from: silencio789 on March 20, 2022, 11:53:45 AM
Well.. me.
I think it looks like a fun crazy future Norse cyber women game.
Doesn't upset my cisgendered hetero soul to be asked to play persons of female gender, trans or otherwise.. it's a role-playing game..
There are lots of male archetypes in the hobby, I like the idea of playing a hardass female..
Oh and social justice is a cause I could see my character fighting for.. wish I did it more IRL, but I do my best researching how to mitigate climate change.

Considering what I've seen of Social Justice activism, it's something I abhor in real life. I could see a villian in an RPG using Social Justice to grab power and oppress people. Maybe make a good campaign for Shield Maidens...

The author certainly seems to be super-duper woke. But this is a Sci-Fi RPG, right?  Because then "shield maiden" can mean literally anything. It has no bearing on the dark-age legend of female viking warriors.

I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

Social Justice has different meanings to different people. So what social justice are you referring to? And why is it relevant to elf-games?

Well, all the meanings are "justice for the many." One can argue about what approach is the most just, or the most social, but it's hard to see how it can be anything bad.

As for elf-games, if you think the concept has no relevance, are you one of those "get rid of alignments" people?

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

   Opposed to Social Justice, or opposed to what is called Social Justice? Eliding that distinction leads to the "If you oppose Antifa, you must be a fascist!" school of thought.

   Personally, I'm not inclined to surrender a legitimate Catholic social doctrine term to those currently trying to abscond with it, which is why I prefer labels like 'hard progressive' or 'adherents of the nascent Antichurch.' ;)

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

Why? Lots of people oppose racism, sexism, and discrimination.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:43:58 PM
Well, all the meanings are "justice for the many." One can argue about what approach is the most just, or the most social, but it's hard to see how it can be anything bad.

As for elf-games, if you think the concept has no relevance, are you one of those "get rid of alignments" people?

Well, if you ask for 'social justice' in Pakistan you'll be told that killing apostates is a good thing. So their brand of social justice does not align with my own. To use one example.

No, I like alignments a lot. Especially in Warhammer Fantasy RPG 1e.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 20, 2022, 07:44:55 PM
  Personally, I'm not inclined to surrender a legitimate Catholic social doctrine term to those currently trying to abscond with it, which is why I prefer labels like 'hard progressive' or 'adherents of the nascent Antichurch.' ;)

Where do I sign up to become an Adherent of the Nascent Antichurch? That sounds badass.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:43:58 PM
Well, all the meanings are "justice for the many." One can argue about what approach is the most just, or the most social, but it's hard to see how it can be anything bad.

Communists are real big on social justice. It's all they think about. The Darrians in Traveller are very progressive space elves.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:54:07 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 20, 2022, 07:44:55 PM
  Personally, I'm not inclined to surrender a legitimate Catholic social doctrine term to those currently trying to abscond with it, which is why I prefer labels like 'hard progressive' or 'adherents of the nascent Antichurch.' ;)

Where do I sign up to become an Adherent of the Nascent Antichurch? That sounds badass.

Deleted for excessive snark and cross-forum drama.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

  Liberal also implies liberty.  But people who use social justice in a sentence are not so much for justice, they generally have an agenda.  They choose their words carefully to paint a narrative.  It is, current year and locality, an umbrella to hide other things under.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

You're also boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to the Patriot Act.

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 03:36:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

You're also boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to the Patriot Act.

I oppose the Patriot Act.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:43:10 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 03:36:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

You're also boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to the Patriot Act.

I oppose the Patriot Act.

But... but... but... it's patriotic!  It's right there in the name!  How could anyone oppose something like patriotism or justice?!!111one

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 04:51:12 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:43:10 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 03:36:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

You're also boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to the Patriot Act.

I oppose the Patriot Act.

But... but... but... it's patriotic!  It's right there in the name!  How could anyone oppose something like patriotism or justice?!!111one

Patriotism, unlike justice or society, is not necessarily good. I oppose patriotism all the time.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:53:44 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 04:51:12 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:43:10 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 03:36:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

You're also boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to the Patriot Act.

I oppose the Patriot Act.

But... but... but... it's patriotic!  It's right there in the name!  How could anyone oppose something like patriotism or justice?!!111one

Patriotism, unlike justice or society, is not necessarily good. I oppose patriotism all the time.

::)

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:43:58 PM
Well, all the meanings are "justice for the many." One can argue about what approach is the most just, or the most social, but it's hard to see how it can be anything bad.

As for elf-games, if you think the concept has no relevance, are you one of those "get rid of alignments" people?

There's also the meaning 'mob justice', which is what it literally turns out to be. And that's what the people opposed to social justice are opposed to - the mob justice that actually happens. And because it actually happens, that's what real social justice is.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:54:07 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 20, 2022, 07:44:55 PM
  Personally, I'm not inclined to surrender a legitimate Catholic social doctrine term to those currently trying to abscond with it, which is why I prefer labels like 'hard progressive' or 'adherents of the nascent Antichurch.' ;)

Where do I sign up to become an Adherent of the Nascent Antichurch? That sounds badass.

But you still haven't answered my question. Why is social justice important in an imaginary elf game?

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

The term "social justice" is poop with shiny paint on it.  It sounds pretty but has nothing to do with actual justice.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:53:44 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 04:51:12 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:43:10 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 03:36:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

You're also boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to the Patriot Act.

I oppose the Patriot Act.

But... but... but... it's patriotic!  It's right there in the name!  How could anyone oppose something like patriotism or justice?!!111one

Patriotism, unlike justice or society, is not necessarily good. I oppose patriotism all the time.

I have the perfect solution: Rename the Patriot Act the Social Justice Act. That would automatically make it good.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 07:29:32 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:54:07 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 20, 2022, 07:44:55 PM
  Personally, I'm not inclined to surrender a legitimate Catholic social doctrine term to those currently trying to abscond with it, which is why I prefer labels like 'hard progressive' or 'adherents of the nascent Antichurch.' ;)

Where do I sign up to become an Adherent of the Nascent Antichurch? That sounds badass.

But you still haven't answered my question. Why is social justice important in an imaginary elf game?

Same reason as any character motivation.
If u like alignment then it's what I think Chaotic Good is, and when over formalised Lawful Good and and when corrupted by despots, some lying version of lawful evil.
But it does matter what you mean of course. I am European, socialist and still find value in Marxism and Anarchism, whilst still a child of the Enlightenment.
If you think the motivation of characters in elf games are relevant then of course it's irrelevant.

Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 10:18:47 AM
I am European, socialist and still find value in Marxism and Anarchism, whilst still a child of the Enlightenment.
If you think the motivation of characters in elf games are relevant then of course it's irrelevant.

Character motivations are important to games of course... But I fail to see what 'real world' social justice as put forward by woke scolds has to do with imaginary elf-games.

In the real world, social justice is vital, but as I said before it means different things to different people. AKA - my previous example of Pakistan.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 10:33:54 AM

Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 10:18:47 AM
I am European, socialist and still find value in Marxism and Anarchism, whilst still a child of the Enlightenment.
If you think the motivation of characters in elf games are relevant then of course it's irrelevant.

Character motivations are important to games of course... But I fail to see what 'real world' social justice as put forward by woke scolds has to do with imaginary elf-games.

This is a SF game, right? You can't imagine such a game addressing political issues or motivations?

Quote
In the real world, social justice is vital, but as I said before it means different things to different people. AKA - my previous example of Pakistan.

Yes, about that.. can you give me some examples of that?

Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 11:32:36 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 10:33:54 AM

Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 10:18:47 AM
I am European, socialist and still find value in Marxism and Anarchism, whilst still a child of the Enlightenment.
If you think the motivation of characters in elf games are relevant then of course it's irrelevant.

Character motivations are important to games of course... But I fail to see what 'real world' social justice as put forward by woke scolds has to do with imaginary elf-games.

This is a SF game, right? You can't imagine such a game addressing political issues or motivations?

Quote
In the real world, social justice is vital, but as I said before it means different things to different people. AKA - my previous example of Pakistan.

Yes, about that.. can you give me some examples of that?

Examples... Um, just look at my previous post about Pakistan and how they deal with apostates? It's just a few posts up.

Well... I could of course use Social Justice in-game. But it becomes a very dubious concept when you try to marry it with the 'real world'. As it's only an elf-game and doesn't correlate too well.

For example, it would be seen as the just and righteous thing to do if the 'Knights Panther' (in WFRP) simply eliminated all the 'greenskins' babies and all! So, there you have it social justice in games. In fact, the genocide of all the greenskins would be seen as a very good thing, and not only that but your duty to attempt it.

And of course, if I was playing a Knights Panther in the Warhammer universe I would be cutting them pesky orcs to pieces babies and all.
But that's not necessarily how I'd behave in real life of course.

  Pakistan also has a culture with a variation of the Bacha Bazi (dancing boys) thing, where some young boys are treated a certain way.  Iran feel social justice is served best when stoning an accused female adulterer.  So that social justice is a funny thing. Generally conforms to societal norms where it is being pushed, and in some places, like the USA where EVERYONE is equal in the eyes of the law these days, is nothing past a bullshit verbal shield to hide what is usually venomous bullshit that tends to work solely for the purpose of eroding societal norms and "getting even" at the cost of a specific demographic.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:00:09 PM
  Pakistan also has a culture with a variation of the Bacha Bazi (dancing boys) thing, where some young boys are treated a certain way.  Iran feel social justice is served best when stoning an accused female adulterer.  So that social justice is a funny thing. Generally conforms to societal norms where it is being pushed, and in some places, like the USA where EVERYONE is equal in the eyes of the law these days, is nothing past a bullshit verbal shield to hide what is usually venomous bullshit that tends to work solely for the purpose of eroding societal norms and "getting even" at the cost of a specific demographic.

This is it. In half the world it's a vile concept (especially in those Islamic countries).

And then its implementation is open to corruption in most Western counties.

And 'social justice' in games according to Woke Scolds is about censoring games and media. Fuck 'em...

There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

   No said anyone is stoning anyone in Pakistan.  Iran however.....  The point is social justice is going to be carried out according to societal norms and expectations.   In the USA, we take that to mean freedom and equal treatment for all.  Even here that has turned into equal outcome, not treatment.  I can not tell you what anyone stoning a lady in Iran is yelling as they do it, I can tell you I see the same look on their faces as people loudly proclaiming their intent to fight for social justice in the USA.  It tends to be the look of a fanatic.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

So when they kill apostates or perform 'honor' killings what do they call it?

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:34:58 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

   No said anyone is stoning anyone in Pakistan.

However, it is technically 'legal' to carry out stoning as punishment.

'Great bunch of lads...

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 12:41:51 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:34:58 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

   No said anyone is stoning anyone in Pakistan.

However, it is technically 'legal' to carry out stoning as punishment.

'Great bunch of lads...

  I know, I have actually seen a taped stoning carried out in Iran though, so I know its not a technicality there.  I have an idea it gets done in pakistan as well, but to be honest, seeing one was enough that I do not care to look for another again.

  In any event steering back to the Pawsplay's question, is to me, and many Social Justice is not a thing, it is simply a vehicle for what looks to be mindless religious zeal for fanatics.  People using it in sentences I understand are usually (from a business perspective) attempting to toss out buzzwords they know are likely to act as a bit of a shield from some of those fanatics, as for now I will consider to be the case with Mongoose's new offering here.  I will reserve the judgement till there is a printed version of the product, as I have stated here a few times.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:44:28 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 12:41:51 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:34:58 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

   No said anyone is stoning anyone in Pakistan.

However, it is technically 'legal' to carry out stoning as punishment.

'Great bunch of lads...

  I know, I have actually seen a taped stoning carried out in Iran though, so I know its not a technicality there.  I have an idea it gets done in pakistan as well, but to be honest, seeing one was enough that I do not care to look for another again.

Yeah, I wouldn't blame you...  :( I never want to see something like that.

Although, I follow a lot of ex-Muslims who expose what really goes on in some of those countries. It's absolutely schocking. 

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:47:34 PM
I will reserve the judgement till there is a printed version of the product, as I have stated here a few times.

There is nothing wrong with doing that at all to be fair. And if you like it you like it. There are plenty of games I have from creators I don't like or agree with.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

So when they kill apostates or perform 'honor' killings what do they call it?

Killing apostates and honor killings. And honor killings, by the way, are condemned by Muslim authorities. There is no one saying "this is social justice." It's just an act of vengeance, one considered ignoble even by members of those societies.

That's like trying to say white supremacists plowing vehicles into protesters is American "social justice." No one says that, no one calls it that.

Plain and simple, a lot of people like to villainize Social Justice because they are afraid of the implications of actually living in a just society. It's not a linguistic quibble, a lot of people are actually just opposed to justice in society. They are for social unjustice. There is no joke, no punchline. Just people continuing to claim white people are the truly oppressed ones, while white people continue to be all but one US president, have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

  Any time anyone says plain and simple, what follows is sure to be their own personal narrative bullshit of a scenario.  No one can undo the past.  If leftist social justice promoters want to continue pushing their current agenda (which is essentially "getting back" at someone aka vengeance) without understanding how that is going to really, really rankle the lower social classes of people who are only badly impacted by that pursuit (since many methods implemented in that pursuit impact them, not the people who had families who might have truly profited from past evils)....you will eventually get what you fucking deserve.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:10:29 PM
  Any time anyone says plain and simple, what follows is sure to be their own personal narrative bullshit of a scenario.  No one can undo the past.  If leftist social justice promoters want to continue pushing their current agenda (which is essentially "getting back" at someone aka vengeance) without understanding how that is going to really, really rankle the lower social classes of people who are only badly impacted by that pursuit (since many methods implemented in that pursuit impact them, not the people who had families who might have truly profited from past evils)....you will eventually get what you fucking deserve.

Plain and simple, you might as well have just farted instead of posting what you just posted, devoid of any fact, or any opinion of any force.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:31:49 PM
There is no one running around in Pakistan stoning people and claiming it's "social justice."

So when they kill apostates or perform 'honor' killings what do they call it?

Killing apostates and honor killings. And honor killings, by the way, are condemned by Muslim authorities. There is no one saying "this is social justice." It's just an act of vengeance, one considered ignoble even by members of those societies.

That's like trying to say white supremacists plowing vehicles into protesters is American "social justice." No one says that, no one calls it that.

Plain and simple, a lot of people like to villainize Social Justice because they are afraid of the implications of actually living in a just society. It's not a linguistic quibble, a lot of people are actually just opposed to justice in society. They are for social unjustice. There is no joke, no punchline. Just people continuing to claim white people are the truly oppressed ones, while white people continue to be all but one US president, have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Which 'Muslim authorities' are these? The ones that say it's legal to stone people in Pakistan, or Iran where they actually do it, out loud and proud? Or the ones that allow women to be flogged? I suppose it's okay to kill homosexuals in the name of religion? You're telling me those fucks don't consider what they are doing as some kind of 'social justice'? Why not ask them on a forum?

As I say... Social Justice means different things to different people.

And what does president Biden got to do with me? Or your capitalist government as an Irish European citizen? I care about what is going on with my country. I don't have time for your mess. lol

And what has that got to do with games?

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:12:52 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:10:29 PM
  Any time anyone says plain and simple, what follows is sure to be their own personal narrative bullshit of a scenario.  No one can undo the past.  If leftist social justice promoters want to continue pushing their current agenda (which is essentially "getting back" at someone aka vengeance) without understanding how that is going to really, really rankle the lower social classes of people who are only badly impacted by that pursuit (since many methods implemented in that pursuit impact them, not the people who had families who might have truly profited from past evils)....you will eventually get what you fucking deserve.

Plain and simple, you might as well have just farted instead of posting what you just posted, devoid of any fact, or any opinion of any force.

  Here is a fact, affirmative action actively hurts working class white kids going to college and getting jobs later.  They have to outperform other demographics to have entry, even if for instance a black applicant to the same school comes from a millionaire family.  Affirmative action is racist policy on paper.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

Or Great grand parents.  The shit SJ types push is the similar to being pissed my great grandfather killed your great grandfather, so you come to me and kill my son.   It is mostly injurious lash outs, and very little actual proactive measures to correct the things they know are causing a great number of the inequalities across demographic boundaries. 

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

Or Great grand parents.  The shit SJ types push is the similar to being pissed my great grandfather killed your great grandfather, so you come to me and kill my son.   It is mostly injurious lash outs, and very little actual proactive measures to correct the things they know are causing a great number of the inequalities across demographic boundaries.

This is it... as a concept, it's a ridiculous claim and defies logic (and I say this as a leftie). But these 'scolds gotta pretend to do something even if it just clutching at straws.

They want a 'just' society, but they will do unjust things to get it. And just (pardon the pun) how just would their full-on commie society actually be? Hm..

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:15:15 PM
Which 'Muslim authorities' are these?

It's against Islamic law. Here's a link to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Religion) so you can get your toesis wet without having to google anything.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

No. They are guilty for the actions they are taking right now. And all too often, people enjoying historical advantages are all too happy to take actions that perpetuate those inequalities, even by unjust actions because first of all, it is personally beneficial to them and people like them, and second, because they choose to reinforce narratives that make themselves blameless.

If it is unjust to tax the unjust wealth of your ancestors, surely it is equally injust to inherit it, since you do not deserve that, either.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:34:21 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

Or Great grand parents.  The shit SJ types push is the similar to being pissed my great grandfather killed your great grandfather, so you come to me and kill my son.   It is mostly injurious lash outs, and very little actual proactive measures to correct the things they know are causing a great number of the inequalities across demographic boundaries.

This is it... as a concept, it's a ridiculous claim and defies logic (and I say this as a leftie). But these 'scolds gotta pretend to do something even if it just clutching at straws.

They want a 'just' society, but they will do unjust things to get it. And just (pardon the pun) how just would their full-on commie society actually be? Hm..

  In the USA I was left of the middle in 2000.  Now I am probably damn near alt right.  I have not moved on social or political issues since 2000. 

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:44:58 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:15:15 PM
Which 'Muslim authorities' are these?

It's against Islamic law. Here's a link to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Religion) so you can get your toesis wet without having to google anything.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

No. They are guilty for the actions they are taking right now. And all too often, people enjoying historical advantages are all too happy to take actions that perpetuate those inequalities, even by unjust actions because first of all, it is personally beneficial to them and people like them, and second, because they choose to reinforce narratives that make themselves blameless.

If it is unjust to tax the unjust wealth of your ancestors, surely it is equally injust to inherit it, since you do not deserve that, either.

  The Haddiths, which in many sects of Islam carry equal weight to the Koran do in fact allow it.  Have you read much of the Koran?  I have one and read it often, and there are many passages that are very open to interpretation (such as it being Ok to kill anyone who would spread mischief across the land....mischief can be very, very broadly defined), but the Haddiths are considerably more hard lined, and many Muslims put that beside the Koran with regard to authority in religious matters.   

  As to that line around ancestors bullshit, that is exactly the sort of crap that is going to spark a fire.  One that will burn away all the insanity.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:44:58 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:15:15 PM
Which 'Muslim authorities' are these?

It's against Islamic law. Here's a link to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Religion) so you can get your toesis wet without having to google anything.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

No. They are guilty for the actions they are taking right now. And all too often, people enjoying historical advantages are all too happy to take actions that perpetuate those inequalities, even by unjust actions because first of all, it is personally beneficial to them and people like them, and second, because they choose to reinforce narratives that make themselves blameless.

If it is unjust to tax the unjust wealth of your ancestors, surely it is equally injust to inherit it, since you do not deserve that, either.

So, they don't like honor killing (allegedly - they just turn a blind eye when it suits). What about the other delightful things, you know, the one's I brought up, you flogging, beating your wife, forced marriage, stoning and amputation, Are they okay? I noticed you dodged all of those.

That makes no sense. How far do we go back? Do we ask the Italians for some compensation for the Rome?

The methods you are trying to apply will never work. Nobody is going to hand over their wealth. And who exactly owes what? How do you even calculate that?

And while we are at it. How about us 'white' Irish? Can we get compensated for the crimes against our country that had been going on for over 700 years? Or do 'reparations' only apply to POC?

If you lot want to change the world you'd better take up politics and get voting.

I'm still waiting to hear what all this woke scold mumbo jumbo has to do with elf games.

Are you saying that "social justice" means anything at all?
That it's simply whatever social group you belong to thinks is correct?
So it's meaningless and so is your criticism since you are criticizing a non existent idea?
Goodness, is this what you all think?

And with regards to Pakistan examples, I meant an example of an actual Pakistani person saying that social justice means X or Y..

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:45:36 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:34:21 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

Or Great grand parents.  The shit SJ types push is the similar to being pissed my great grandfather killed your great grandfather, so you come to me and kill my son.   It is mostly injurious lash outs, and very little actual proactive measures to correct the things they know are causing a great number of the inequalities across demographic boundaries.

This is it... as a concept, it's a ridiculous claim and defies logic (and I say this as a leftie). But these 'scolds gotta pretend to do something even if it just clutching at straws.

They want a 'just' society, but they will do unjust things to get it. And just (pardon the pun) how just would their full-on commie society actually be? Hm..

  In the USA I was left of the middle in 2000.  Now I am probably damn near alt right.  I have not moved on social or political issues since 2000.

Actually, I know quite a few left-leaning people that have abandoned their politics and started to go full-on right-wing.

I haven't changed my own politics. I still lean left, but I don't allow the 'scolds any leeway because they are not left they are some weird autocratic commies.

Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 02:36:30 PM
Are you saying that "social justice" means anything at all?
That it's simply whatever social group you belong to thinks is correct?
So it's meaningless and so is your criticism since you are criticizing a non existent idea?
Goodness, is this what you all think?

And with regards to Pakistan examples, I meant an example of an actual Pakistani person saying that social justice means X or Y..

That's not what I said.

Another nice dodge there too btw. lol

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 02:38:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:45:36 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:34:21 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 21, 2022, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
have ten times the intergenerational wealth of blacks, and continue to profit on land stolen from natives and wealth created by a recent slave-owning past.

Also, people are not guilty of the crimes of their parents or ancestors.

Or Great grand parents.  The shit SJ types push is the similar to being pissed my great grandfather killed your great grandfather, so you come to me and kill my son.   It is mostly injurious lash outs, and very little actual proactive measures to correct the things they know are causing a great number of the inequalities across demographic boundaries.

This is it... as a concept, it's a ridiculous claim and defies logic (and I say this as a leftie). But these 'scolds gotta pretend to do something even if it just clutching at straws.

They want a 'just' society, but they will do unjust things to get it. And just (pardon the pun) how just would their full-on commie society actually be? Hm..

  In the USA I was left of the middle in 2000.  Now I am probably damn near alt right.  I have not moved on social or political issues since 2000.

Actually, I know quite a few left-leaning people that have abandoned their politics and started to go full-on right-wing.

I haven't changed my own politics. I still lean left, but I don't allow the 'scolds any leeway because they are not left they are some weird autocratic commies.

  My point is, the window moved right past me.  I never took a step in any direction. Even the NO WARS stance I have almost always had is suddenly a right wing position in the USA.  It is clown world over here.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 02:42:49 PM
It is clown world over here.

Yeah... Seems to be a weird place to live these days, sadly.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:36:07 PM
I'm still boggled by the number of people willing to state they are opposed to Social Justice.

I find it hopeful. Spending any time actually investigating Social Justice instead of assuming it's a good thing because it has "justice" in the name, reveals it's a sham than enables terrible behavior.

Please stick to the topic as it relates to gaming!

On topic: I have ZERO problem with creating a Shield Maiden character in some sort of gonzo "not Shadowrun" cyberpunk fantasy setting with Nordic elements. In fact, most my characters tend to be along those lines. I just don't want people preaching their politics to me, or inserting divisive real life crap into the game as a low key attempt to "own" their political opponents or promote their political views in an irrelevant context.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 10:21:13 AM
On topic: I have ZERO problem with creating a Shield Maiden character in some sort of gonzo "not Shadowrun" cyberpunk fantasy setting with Nordic elements. In fact, most my characters tend to be along those lines. I just don't want people preaching their politics to me, or inserting divisive real life crap into the game as a low key attempt to "own" their political opponents or promote their political views in an irrelevant context.

   I think it is a bit odd to pigeon hole the titular hero class to a specific gender honestly.  I probably would not play it, and I guarantee my son will certainly not play it.  I am sure there will be good supporting reasons the rebellious Freya is leading the heroic charge to overthrow the evil empire that hates diversity and inclusion that is not politically charged.  It is just a non starter for the pigeon hole (I am sure they will boost the supporting cast as a matter of fact) on the gender, as I play with my son and nephew and neither of them are interested in any play being a girl character (their terminology). 

Personally, I'm not too bothered by the whole concept.

I mean, I'd happily play a shieldmaiden warrior kicking the bad guy's ass. I don't mind the restriction of sex per se given the game's context. Because one could apply those similar restrictions, to say a game where you played Spartans. As there could be no female warriors in such a game - even if it was a game set in the future. Assuming you wanted to be authentic.

But it's really hard for me to separate the game from the actual author (and given the title of this thread).

So for me, even if I liked the game, I won't be buying it because I don't want to support anyone who has this woke scold fallacy in their signature:

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community.

Here's the link - see post no. 16 if you're interested.
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/shield-maidens-rpg-announced-cyberpunk-vikings.894769/page-2

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 22, 2022, 11:13:26 AM
Personally, I'm not too bothered by the whole concept.

I mean, I'd happily play a shieldmaiden warrior kicking the bad guy's ass. I don't mind the restriction of sex per se given the game's context. Because one could apply those similar restrictions, to say a game where you played Spartans. As there could be no female warriors in such a game - even if it was a game set in the future. Assuming you wanted to be authentic.

But it's really hard for me to separate the game from the actual author (and given the title of this thread).

So for me, even if I liked the game, I won't be buying it because I don't want to support anyone who has this woke scold fallacy in their signature:

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community.

Here's the link - see post no. 16 if you're interested.
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/shield-maidens-rpg-announced-cyberpunk-vikings.894769/page-2

  Well, I wouldnt be playing a game where the (best)characters could only be male either.   So it is not the female pigeon hole for me (though, for 11 and 13 year old boys it is), it is the pigeon hole.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 22, 2022, 01:19:29 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 22, 2022, 11:13:26 AM
Personally, I'm not too bothered by the whole concept.

I mean, I'd happily play a shieldmaiden warrior kicking the bad guy's ass. I don't mind the restriction of sex per se given the game's context. Because one could apply those similar restrictions, to say a game where you played Spartans. As there could be no female warriors in such a game - even if it was a game set in the future. Assuming you wanted to be authentic.

But it's really hard for me to separate the game from the actual author (and given the title of this thread).

So for me, even if I liked the game, I won't be buying it because I don't want to support anyone who has this woke scold fallacy in their signature:

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community.

Here's the link - see post no. 16 if you're interested.
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/shield-maidens-rpg-announced-cyberpunk-vikings.894769/page-2

  Well, I wouldnt be playing a game where the (best)characters could only be male either.   So it is not the female pigeon hole for me (though, for 11 and 13 year old boys it is), it is the pigeon hole.

It hasn't been established yet that the best characters in the game are Shield Maidens, only speculated about and assumed based on politics and the name of the game. I'm not exactly a fan of including one type of "best" character in a game either, of any type. Not just gender-specific, but any class, race, background or whatever, unless its a point-buy or similar system and you have to pay more for the more powerful origin.

But I have zero issue with gender-specific origins (of either gender), as long as they make sense.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 22, 2022, 01:19:29 PM
Well, I wouldnt be playing a game where the (best)characters could only be male either.   So it is not the female pigeon hole for me (though, for 11 and 13 year old boys it is), it is the pigeon hole.

Yeah... I was just making an example of how you could justify running a game where the focus of the PCs is on one particular sex.

Personally, I'd prefer to have a mix of the two. As long as there are no silly pointed-eared elfs or Tieflings I'm happy. :)

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 01:25:40 PM
But I have zero issue with gender-specific origins (of either gender), as long as they make sense.

That's the key right there... If it fits logically within the game's concept then that's cool.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 22, 2022, 10:32:21 AM
I am sure there will be good supporting reasons the rebellious Freya is leading the heroic charge to overthrow the evil empire that hates diversity and inclusion that is not politically charged. 

I don't think so.

I'm currently writing scifi and one of the antagonists is an empire of (basically) space elves who hold extreme leftwing values based on logical scientific principles. As in, they will ban client states from using spears because that would drive the local megafauna to extinction, engage in the culling (i.e. genocide) of intelligent species if they think the population is too high for their home planet to support, and ban the consumption of anything other than the foul-tasting artificial nutrient slurry they provide because hunting and agriculture are incompatible with conservation efforts. This all makes perfect sense from the perspective of someone trying to prevent an intelligent species from destroying their environment. The problem is that this leads to an appalling quality of life. Sure, the elves provide food, housing, and medicine, but this comes at the cost of self-determination. Anyone who questions this is send to re-education camps where they are implanted with mind-control implants that keep them compliant. To add insult to injury, the elves themselves life in dyson spheres where they don't have to worry about sacrificing their own quality of life for the conservation efforts. They refuse to offer this to their client states because they don't believe other species are mature enough to use the tech responsibly. The main characters are self-congratulatory fanatical activists who see no problem with wholesale incinerating human colonies to prevent the spread of dangerous space bugs.

In order to stay balanced and avoid being labeled an istophobe, I've written humanity as an extreme cyberpunk dystopia in which evil corpos keep humanity enslaved for the sake of profit and use istaphobic propaganda to keep the populace divided. The main characters are space truckers and miners and other working class people just trying to make a living and avoid making ripples.

Now, if I didn't just tell you, would you have realized that my ideas are meant to be politically charged social commentary?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2022, 02:06:30 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 22, 2022, 10:32:21 AM
I am sure there will be good supporting reasons the rebellious Freya is leading the heroic charge to overthrow the evil empire that hates diversity and inclusion that is not politically charged. 

I don't think so.

I'm currently writing scifi and one of the antagonists is an empire of (basically) space elves who hold extreme leftwing values based on logical scientific principles. As in, they will ban client states from using spears because that would drive the local megafauna to extinction, engage in the culling (i.e. genocide) of intelligent species if they think the population is too high for their home planet to support, and ban the consumption of anything other than the foul-tasting artificial nutrient slurry they provide because hunting and agriculture are incompatible with conservation efforts. This all makes perfect sense from the perspective of someone trying to prevent an intelligent species from destroying their environment. The problem is that this leads to an appalling quality of life. Sure, the elves provide food, housing, and medicine, but this comes at the cost of self-determination. Anyone who questions this is send to re-education camps where they are implanted with mind-control implants that keep them compliant. To add insult to injury, the elves themselves life in dyson spheres where they don't have to worry about sacrificing their own quality of life for the conservation efforts. They refuse to offer this to their client states because they don't believe other species are mature enough to use the tech responsibly. The main characters are self-congratulatory fanatical activists who see no problem with wholesale incinerating human colonies to prevent the spread of dangerous space bugs.

In order to stay balanced and avoid being labeled an istophobe, I've written humanity as an extreme cyberpunk dystopia in which evil corpos keep humanity enslaved for the sake of profit and use istaphobic propaganda to keep the populace divided. The main characters are space truckers and miners and other working class people just trying to make a living and avoid making ripples.

Now, if I didn't just tell you, would you have realized that my ideas are meant to be politically charged social commentary?

  What can I say...I am literally bending over backwards to give mongoose the benefit of the doubt (which is based almost 100 percent on the nostalgia I feel for the Conan game they released years ago) before they release the game.

Shield Maidens are Popular, Hot and Cool.  Those are the only reasons Mongoose has ever needed.
(https://historycouk.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/styles/860x430/public/2020-09/Vikingos%20T5%20%281%29-min.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZSHoSMB.jpeg)

QuoteNooooo, sort of... not really. Again, we will go deeper into this but, in a nutshell, the Shield Maidens have been tasked with getting time moving again. The Fenrir Empire is standing in their way.

I must really say that like probably dumbest use of Nordic mythology I could think about.
"Get time moving again?" Like Fenrir is not force of imperial stagnation. Fenrir is force of anihilationism, engine of Ragnarok. "As the agents of Fenrir try to stifle free thought and social justice, crush individuality and deny diversity,". That's just some symbolic travesty. If you made Loki's lot and giants as revolutionaries against stagnant Asgard I could buy it (like concept not rpg). This way it's cheapest possible SJW narrative wrapped in most unfit mythological narrative.

Like wouldn't it be more fitting if you want use Nordic mythology to be Lokikin being forces of destruction, and Asgard being stagnant order. That would somehow fit this prog narrative.

QuoteIndeed. Honestly, I've never felt "represented" by "traditional" eurocentric fantasy tropes because they are all also very Anglocentric. As a Baltic/Slavic/Romani Jew, that just isn't me at all. D&D itself was aswarm with Christianity from the beginning.

I mean even by the Dwarves, mate? ;)

QuoteWell, to be fair your lot were actively trying to erase RPGs first, in the 80s.

Well in this case I think it's gonna be perfectly justified to accuse you of Stalin and Mao crimes as self-proclaimed anti-clerical leftist :P

QuoteAnd didn't you Christians appropriate your 'culture' from the middle-east anyway?

A. Religion is not culture.
B. There are still Christians with ancient roots in Middle-East and their culture is distinctly Semitic/Egyptian to the point in historical sources it's hard to differentiate between Christian, pagan and Muslim Bedouins unless religious rituals are explicitly mentioned.

QuoteNewsflash for the SJWs and everyone else: no one plays RPGs to represent themselves.

That's in my experience utterly untrue. Plenty people I know plays some enhanced own avatars, or very clearly builds there character about some own vices and virtues in persistent matter.
I mean all my characters till last one for instance were bearded dudes ;) My very LN friend generally plays only very LN sometimes LE characters and so on.

Now of course it's not 1-1 translation of own life, but then neither is SJW representation.

QuoteI think it is a bit odd to pigeon hole the titular hero class to a specific gender honestly.  I probably would not play it, and I guarantee my son will certainly not play it.  I am sure there will be good supporting reasons the rebellious Freya is leading the heroic charge to overthrow the evil empire that hates diversity and inclusion that is not politically charged.  It is just a non starter for the pigeon hole (I am sure they will boost the supporting cast as a matter of fact) on the gender, as I play with my son and nephew and neither of them are interested in any play being a girl character (their terminology).

And that's just fine. Not every game is for everybody. In fact trying to make your game really for everybody, abandoning themes and leitmotives usually ends with game for nobody.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 29, 2022, 09:01:24 AM
A. Religion is not culture.

Eh, did you not even bother to read the posts? This was already established.

Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 10:09:39 PM
Shield Maidens are Popular, Hot and Cool.  Those are the only reasons Mongoose has ever needed.

If only they were in the game and it was about those kind of Shield Maidens.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 29, 2022, 11:00:44 PM
If only they were in the game and it was about those kind of Shield Maidens.

If only you didn't start a whole bullshit thread because you are butthurt over getting modded on the Mongoose forums......

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 13, 2022, 04:27:47 AM
It was not deleted by MongooseKat, nor anyone working at Mongoose. We have a couple of volunteers on our forums who typically spend their time deleting spam posts, and it was one of them who did this.

I was concerned that it had happened, as the number of times we have actively deleted non-spam posts over twenty years can perhaps be counted on two hands and generally only because of threatening behaviour (once, as I recall) and genuinely offensive stuff on a complete twonkish level. Basically, we like to keep a very light touch.

So, I spoke to the moderator to find out what had happened. A complaint from another forum user had drawn attention to the post and the moderator judged your post to not be a serious question and instead be deliberate 'bait'. Now, this bit is important: The moderator actually likes your posts in general and thinks you play a decent Devil's Advocate. They just felt that doing this on a thread that was effectively a press release was Not Cool, and decided to delete it. They did say to me that if you had posted the same thing in another thread, they would likely have not touched it.

If it had been me getting to it first... well, I might not have been best pleased with it popping up on a PR piece but I may have left it (light touch). If it had been in another thread, I would certainly have skipped it by.

I realize this is technically off topic but it needs to be addressed.

It doesn't matter if the action was taken by a volunteer, because you're the one who gave them the authority to make that call. It doesn't matter if they otherwise 'like' this poster's posts, only that the rules were not applied consistently. And I hate to say given current year and what I know about the author the question was not entirely unwarranted.

The buck stops with you, and instead you're passing it. Not cool.

Hey there,

I absolutely do take responsibility - I just wanted to be transparent as to the process involved.

Also... I imagine this may only be of interest to a few but...

The Shield Maidens Kickstarter is now live:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/shield-maidens-a-new-viking-cyberpunk-tabletop-rpg

Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 01, 2022, 09:18:52 AM
The Shield Maidens Kickstarter is now live:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/shield-maidens-a-new-viking-cyberpunk-tabletop-rpg

Matt,

I've been playing Traveller off-and-on since 1981. Mongoose is doing some excellent work. Especially Pirates of Drinax.
I have no interest in Shield Maidens, but good luck on the Kickstarter.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on April 01, 2022, 08:57:51 AM
I realize this is technically off topic but it needs to be addressed.

It doesn't matter if the action was taken by a volunteer, because you're the one who gave them the authority to make that call. It doesn't matter if they otherwise 'like' this poster's posts, only that the rules were not applied consistently. And I hate to say given current year and what I know about the author the question was not entirely unwarranted.

Well technically, the thread was deleted. And a whole new thread was posted to start from. Otherwise, the thread would still have it's original post date.

Looks like it is playing with the ideas in Lords of Light or Creatures of Light & Darkness only with norse myth. There was a video game called Too Human that sort of took the same tack, trying to do a lot of strange world building over the skeletal support of a more familiar subject.

Quote from: palaeomerus on April 01, 2022, 04:55:32 PM
Looks like it is playing with the ideas in Lords of Light or Creatures of Light & Darkness only with norse myth. There was a video game called Too Human that sort of took the same tack, trying to do a lot of strange world building over the skeletal support of a more familiar subject.

that game was amazing by Dennis Dyack.  Very sorry the subsequent sequels were never made as the lore was amazing.

/tangent

Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 06:55:49 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

Well, you've already given them the stretch goal of Free Publicity for what you hate, you easily manipulated wonk.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:01:08 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 06:55:49 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

Well, you've already given them the stretch goal of Free Publicity for what you hate, you easily manipulated wonk.

That would require people to back it and fund it. Matt posted the link and asked us to take a look at it, I obliged and realized it's not for me as the red flags are all there for another Thirsty Sword Lesbian book written by someone that hates me for who I do/do not sleep with at night.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:10:23 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:01:08 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 06:55:49 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

Well, you've already given them the stretch goal of Free Publicity for what you hate, you easily manipulated wonk.

That would require people to back it and fund it. Matt posted the link and asked us to take a look at it, I obliged and realized it's not for me as the red flags are all there for another Thirsty Sword Lesbian book written by someone that hates me for who I do/do not sleep with at night.

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

I put it in the same type of game as TSL in who it's marketing itself too. I haven't read the PDF to fully see if it's written like TSL.

I leave it to other to be that Stunning and Brave for me.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:45:44 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

I put it in the same type of game as TSL in who it's marketing itself too. I haven't read the PDF to fully see if it's written like TSL.

I leave it to other to be that Stunning and Brave for me.

Don't look at me, I'm turned off by the concept.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:45:44 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

I put it in the same type of game as TSL in who it's marketing itself too. I haven't read the PDF to fully see if it's written like TSL.

I leave it to other to be that Stunning and Brave for me.

They're hardly the same thing. TSL entirely about being woke and silly to the core, with craptastic art. Shield Maidens is a potentially cool concept with awesome I art that just happens to have woke elements shoehorned in.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 01, 2022, 08:26:14 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:45:44 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

I put it in the same type of game as TSL in who it's marketing itself too. I haven't read the PDF to fully see if it's written like TSL.

I leave it to other to be that Stunning and Brave for me.

They're hardly the same thing. TSL entirely about being woke and silly to the core, with craptastic art. Shield Maidens is a potentially cool concept with awesome I art that just happens to have woke elements shoehorned in.

What makes this woke for me, is not the concept per se, but the actual author's personal views which they clearly display as often as possible.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 08:27:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 01, 2022, 08:26:14 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:45:44 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

I put it in the same type of game as TSL in who it's marketing itself too. I haven't read the PDF to fully see if it's written like TSL.

I leave it to other to be that Stunning and Brave for me.

They're hardly the same thing. TSL entirely about being woke and silly to the core, with craptastic art. Shield Maidens is a potentially cool concept with awesome I art that just happens to have woke elements shoehorned in.

What makes this woke for me, is not the concept per se, but the actual author's personal views which they clearly display as often as possible.

So don't waste your money on it, like I said before.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 09:29:06 PM
So don't waste your money on it, like I said before.

I have no intention of backing the KS. And I'm sure it will be very well funded...

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 09:32:11 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 09:29:06 PM
So don't waste your money on it, like I said before.

I have no intention of backing the KS. And I'm sure it will be very well funded...

I'm pretty sure that it will be well funded too, but it won't be by my money.....

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 09:33:58 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 09:32:11 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 09:29:06 PM
So don't waste your money on it, like I said before.

I have no intention of backing the KS. And I'm sure it will be very well funded...

I'm pretty sure that it will be well funded too, but it won't be by my money.....

Or mine.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:10:23 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:01:08 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 06:55:49 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

Well, you've already given them the stretch goal of Free Publicity for what you hate, you easily manipulated wonk.

That would require people to back it and fund it. Matt posted the link and asked us to take a look at it, I obliged and realized it's not for me as the red flags are all there for another Thirsty Sword Lesbian book written by someone that hates me for who I do/do not sleep with at night.

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

TSL was more of a dook on the porch of Revolutionary Girl Utenna fans who had to watch their fave show sinking down alive into the swamps of cheap no-license tumblr remake crap.

(https://i.imgur.com/yFfgR3T.png)

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 08:27:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 01, 2022, 08:26:14 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 07:45:44 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 01, 2022, 07:22:48 PM

The game isn't for me, either. So I'm not giving Mongoose any Kickstarter money for it. Simple. You just don't support what you don't like.

I doubt it is another outrage marketing "let's piss off the breeders" attempt like Thirsty Sword Lesbians was.

I put it in the same type of game as TSL in who it's marketing itself too. I haven't read the PDF to fully see if it's written like TSL.

I leave it to other to be that Stunning and Brave for me.

They're hardly the same thing. TSL entirely about being woke and silly to the core, with craptastic art. Shield Maidens is a potentially cool concept with awesome I art that just happens to have woke elements shoehorned in.

What makes this woke for me, is not the concept per se, but the actual author's personal views which they clearly display as often as possible.

I haven't gone through all of it yet, but I've been checking out the free PDF and looks pretty good so far, with a fairly clean, elegant layout and great art. Only arguably woke thing I've seen so far is this bit during the intro where it suddenly mentions a "wide spectrum of sexualities" when describing the people of the world, like that's a relevant bit of info outside of going into a night club or something where there's gonna be a lot of screwing going on. But other than that it just reads like normal cyberpunk-fantasy RPG with Nordic elements (at least so far).

QuoteMidgard is the birthplace of humanity, a diverse people of all shapes, sizes, and ethnicities, with a wide spectrum of sexualities, skin tones and ancestries.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 08:27:53 PM
What makes this woke for me, is not the concept per se, but the actual author's personal views which they clearly display as often as possible.

Do me a favour? Have a quick glance at the PDF primer we have done for the game:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0609/6139/0839/files/Shield_Maidens_Primer.pdf?v=1648809470

It is not very long. Just see if there is anything truly objectionable. Not saying it will be your thing, not trying to convert you... just saying it may not be completely what you think...

Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 02, 2022, 03:09:02 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 08:27:53 PM
What makes this woke for me, is not the concept per se, but the actual author's personal views which they clearly display as often as possible.

Do me a favour? Have a quick glance at the PDF primer we have done for the game:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0609/6139/0839/files/Shield_Maidens_Primer.pdf?v=1648809470

It is not very long. Just see if there is anything truly objectionable. Not saying it will be your thing, not trying to convert you... just saying it may not be completely what you think...

You know, even if it isn't his thing (like it isn't my thing), that doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist. It is just that we aren't the target market for this product.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 02, 2022, 03:09:02 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 01, 2022, 08:27:53 PM
What makes this woke for me, is not the concept per se, but the actual author's personal views which they clearly display as often as possible.

Do me a favour? Have a quick glance at the PDF primer we have done for the game:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0609/6139/0839/files/Shield_Maidens_Primer.pdf?v=1648809470

It is not very long. Just see if there is anything truly objectionable. Not saying it will be your thing, not trying to convert you... just saying it may not be completely what you think...

Thanks Matt,

But as I was saying, I've nothing against the game whatsoever (or Mongoose P.). But even if I liked the game, I couldn't bring myself to buy it purely on the author's woke scold politics.

This is in her own signature on RPG.net:

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community."

I find that pretty offensive as well and trivializing such a serious subject (in the real world).

Another weird bit I found was in the equipment section under Chrome, where they refer to replacement limbs as an "Accessibility Aid", which sounds like handicap-sensitive, non "ableist" jargon at odds with a cyberpunk world...

QuoteAn accessibility aid is any cybernetic that aids a Shield Maiden whose organic limbs or organs do not function. This may be a mechanical hand, hearing device, mechanical leg or mobility chair. In upper class areas, devices such as these are prohibitively expensive – Fenrir philosophy teaches that those who require such devices are a drain on society. Amongst poorer zones, the Resistance manufactures and fits these aids free of charge. When installed, an accessibility aid grants the Shield Maiden the ability to perform up to the base standard of any other Shield Maiden. There are no rules or requirements to use an accessibility aid, they simply work.

...And they're handed out for free, cuz apparently charging for an advanced piece of technology that would require extensive technical know-how and materials to build is simply just part of Fenrir's exploitative capitalist philosophy, as opposed to a function of scarcity and the fact not everyone would have the knowledge, time or materials to build one. So only the upper class areas charge for them, but the poorer zones just get them for free, because if there's one thing impoverished people have is a bunch of technical experts just lying around with a bunch of mechanical parts readily available to be fitted onto anyone in need.

Granted, you have to be deep into woke (or anti-woke) nonsense to realize that this is technically woke, and I can easily ignore this as just a cosmetic element (want to say your character has a mechanical arm with no special benefits? Sure! Have one for free!), But it just stuck out to me as kinda silly the way it's presented.

That and what I mentioned earlier were the only weird bits I found, though.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 02, 2022, 07:04:47 AM
Granted, you have to be deep into woke (or anti-woke) nonsense to realize that this is technically woke, and I can easily ignore this as just a cosmetic element (want to say your character has a mechanical arm with no special benefits? Sure! Have one for free!), But it just stuck out to me as kinda silly the way it's presented.

That and what I mentioned earlier were the only weird bits I found, though.

A lot of the promo images have these huge vast mega structure cities in their backgrounds. Who built them? The shaved blue-haired fems obviously didn't.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 02, 2022, 03:09:02 AM
Do me a favour? Have a quick glance at the PDF primer we have done for the game:

I checked it out, looks pretty cool. Just a bunch of archetypal badass women fighting against the urban/corporate empire, with no references to the "birth sex" of those badasses.

If the Primer were the whole game, this conversation may not even have started.

The OP leads with "the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female," which is what some people have mentioned objecting to, for reasons well detailed above. If that's not in the rules, please do let us know, but either way the Primer's contents isn't really the issue.

Rob objected to supporting content produced by Alison Cybe, which also has nothing to do with the contents of the Primer.

Edit: I'll go a step further, FYI: I thought the game looked cool enough that were it not for the virtue signaling thrown in on top, I, a heterosexual dude, would be tempted to give it a whirl.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 02, 2022, 02:29:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 02, 2022, 07:04:47 AM
Granted, you have to be deep into woke (or anti-woke) nonsense to realize that this is technically woke, and I can easily ignore this as just a cosmetic element (want to say your character has a mechanical arm with no special benefits? Sure! Have one for free!), But it just stuck out to me as kinda silly the way it's presented.

That and what I mentioned earlier were the only weird bits I found, though.

A lot of the promo images have these huge vast mega structure cities in their backgrounds. Who built them? The shaved blue-haired fems obviously didn't.

Damn, getting modded on the Mongoose forums really made your pee-pee feel small, didn't it? No wonder you are so butthurt over it.

Quote from: Horace on March 11, 2022, 08:51:52 PMAre the developers of Norse descent? Are they practicing neopagans? I thought the Left condemned this sort of cultural appropriation.

Its only appropriation till one of them does it. Then it is... Inclusiveness! Or some new made up magic word.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe...  8)

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

I would say there are more subtle red flags, and this has already been brought up. The way they're describing Fenrir isn't anything like Fenrir from Norse mythology, and it reeks of not knowing anything about Norse mythology and certainly not respecting it.

What you can tell they know is that 'Fenrir' is the bad guy in Norse mythology, but nothing more about it. And for then capitalism is the greatest evil. So they've set up socialism vs. capitalism with shield maidens vs Fenrir. So political biases are pretty clear. And the thing is, you've already got a platform for that with Cyberpunk. If you want to include transgendered characters, and have the big bads being corporate behemoths, all the while having various cybernetic augmentations, you can just take the existing Cyberpunk settings and you really don't need to change anything.

So why put this veneer of Norse mythology onto it?

About the only thing you can say for them is they're not taking an existing property and destroying it, they are still creating something new - so credit where credit is due. But it's also obvious the designers are SJWs.

Yeah if you wanted to have evil capitalism as enemy you'd probably have to use... dwarves. And that open another can of wyrms.

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 04:24:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe...  8)

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

  My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.  It is like when dudes like Krugman and the like bitch non stop about capitalism and wealth inequality do so because doing so has made them multi millionaires.....

Quote from: oggsmash on April 03, 2022, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 04:24:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe...  8)

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

  My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.  It is like when dudes like Krugman and the like bitch non stop about capitalism and wealth inequality do so because doing so has made them multi millionaires.....

This is just a silly gotcha criticism of anti-capitalism that assumes that trade is an inherent and exclusive function of capitalism, like exchanging goods for some type of currency didn't exist for thousands of years before capitalism as it's conceptualized today existed (private ownership of the means of production using wage worker for profit), or like market socialism (like worker co-ops) isn't a thing. And also ignores the fact that even if you have issues with a system, and we were to accept the notion that trade is exclusively capitalist as true, if that system is all you realistically have available to subsist, you still have to participate in it even if you oppose it in part or in whole.

It's basically "You exchanged goods for money once, therefore you can't criticize the (presumed) exploitative nature of a system built around the relentless search for profit and the giant corporations it spans, its wasteful consumer culture, wage slavery, etc." This is made more ridiculous if the goods exchanged are things you produced yourself using your own means of production (as indi publishers* could), as opposed to selling stuff other people produced at a markup while paying them as little as possible.

*Which granted, doesn't apply to Mongoose, but it's entirely doable if you want to publish your own stuff.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2022, 11:51:02 AM
This is just a silly gotcha criticism of anti-capitalism that assumes that trade is an inherent and exclusive function of capitalism, like exchanging goods for some type of currency didn't exist for thousands of years before capitalism as it's conceptualized today existed (private ownership of the means of production using wage worker for profit), or like market socialism (like worker co-ops) isn't a thing. And also ignores the fact that even if you have issues with a system, and we were to accept the notion that trade is exclusively capitalist as true, if that system is all you realistically have available to subsist, you still have to participate in it even if you oppose it in part or in whole.

  "Capitalism" is the most vague and ill-defined term in this whole debate, followed closely by "socialism."

QuoteMy favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.

Now look I'm like anti-democracy but I still vote. You do what you can living in harsh foreign world :P I'm not gonna start suicidal monarchist revolution just to signalize my purity, sorry bro :P
Obviously if you earn multi-millions on it then one should expect from self-called socialists to well show they are not hypocritical assholes. But as most RPG designers just earn enough to live... I guess this is within realm of tolerance.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on April 01, 2022, 09:18:52 AM
I absolutely do take responsibility - I just wanted to be transparent as to the process involved.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 04:55:13 PM
Well technically, the thread was deleted. And a whole new thread was posted to start from.

I wonder why.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 01, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Having men as "allies" to the Shield Maidens?  Why in the world would you use that word?

You know why.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 01, 2022, 06:55:49 PM
One of the stretch goals should allow buyers to choose the pronouns for Odin.

You jest, but mythologically speaking Odin was trans, so I'm really curious as to how they're going to address that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 02, 2022, 06:29:04 AM
This is in her own signature on RPG.net:

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community."

I find that pretty offensive as well and trivializing such a serious subject (in the real world).

Did I miss the sarcasm here? Because this is a ridiculously bad faith take.

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 04:52:55 AM
So why put this veneer of Norse mythology onto it?

Why not?

Quote from: oggsmash on April 03, 2022, 09:47:32 AM
My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.

After delving into their ineloquent critiques I've come to the conclusion that they're not complaining about Capitalism but abuse of power and can't differentiate between the two.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on April 04, 2022, 10:32:57 AM

"Everybody is welcome at my table" is the "All Lives Matter" of the Tabletop RPG community."

I find that pretty offensive as well and trivializing such a serious subject (in the real world).

There was no sarcasm...

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2022, 11:51:02 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 03, 2022, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 04:24:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 12, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
Dude, it's gonzo cyberpunk-fantasy with Nordic aesthetic just for the cool factor. It has fuck to do with history and they aren't crapping on Norse mythology any more than Marvel already did making Heimdall black, or any other company that has been slapping pseudo Nordic elements on everything since before I was born. Shield Maidens as depicted in fiction aren't even real and didn't exist in real life. They were made up by Hollywood, cuz gurl powah!

Glancing over and late to this as well.

Reminds me alot of the old Raven*Star RPG. Just with a Norse theme instead of a Native American theme. Or Mecha! With its Aztec theme. Just less giant robots and sacrifices. Maybe...  8)

The choice of wording though tosses up the usual red flags. But so far not in any big way. I agree with Jeff that one shouldn't just go in gunz-a-blazin. But I sure was wrong about that Handicapped book being ok. So take that support with several grains of salt.

To Mongoose, if you are still here. Next time consider how the wording of your adverts and promotionals might actually turn away more potential customers, now thoroughly sick to death of this ploy or anything that hints of such, than what reads as virtue signalling will ever attract. Yes. Those women you are trying to attract. Even relatively minor things can now. I know marketing says this is the road to riches. But it is more like the road leads over the precipice of failure.

  My favorite part of games and such wanting harsh critiques of "capitalism" always want to charge money for the rules/setting/materials to join in on that critique.  It is like when dudes like Krugman and the like bitch non stop about capitalism and wealth inequality do so because doing so has made them multi millionaires.....

This is just a silly gotcha criticism of anti-capitalism that assumes that trade is an inherent and exclusive function of capitalism, like exchanging goods for some type of currency didn't exist for thousands of years before capitalism as it's conceptualized today existed (private ownership of the means of production using wage worker for profit), or like market socialism (like worker co-ops) isn't a thing. And also ignores the fact that even if you have issues with a system, and we were to accept the notion that trade is exclusively capitalist as true, if that system is all you realistically have available to subsist, you still have to participate in it even if you oppose it in part or in whole.

It's basically "You exchanged goods for money once, therefore you can't criticize the (presumed) exploitative nature of a system built around the relentless search for profit and the giant corporations it spans, its wasteful consumer culture, wage slavery, etc." This is made more ridiculous if the goods exchanged are things you produced yourself using your own means of production (as indi publishers* could), as opposed to selling stuff other people produced at a markup while paying them as little as possible.

*Which granted, doesn't apply to Mongoose, but it's entirely doable if you want to publish your own stuff.

  No, I put capitalism in quotes for a reason, what you are complaining about, and what most complain about is not capitalism.  It is corporatism.  I just want the people bitching, like you, to use the proper definitions or clear meanings as capitalism is used to narrowly focus on massive corporations (which honestly wield more power than a government and do all they can to destroy actual capitalists and smaller business). 

Capitalism's basic tenet is that private ownership is virtually inviolable. You can dispense with that notion and still have trade, even a fairly free market system (at least as free as under capitalism).  Most people aren't really capitalists in survival situations, and most people don't acknowledge how many aspects of modern life are survival situations.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 04:04:30 PM
Capitalism's basic tenet is that private ownership is virtually inviolable. You can dispense with that notion and still have trade, even a fairly free market system (at least as free as under capitalism).  Most people aren't really capitalists in survival situations, and most people don't acknowledge how many aspects of modern life are survival situations.

If nobody owns anything, you can't have trade or a free market. You just have bureaucrats guessing how to allocate resources. And no, survival situations are vanishingly rare in modern life, and those situations typically don't involve trade anyway.

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 04:50:28 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 04:04:30 PM
Capitalism's basic tenet is that private ownership is virtually inviolable. You can dispense with that notion and still have trade, even a fairly free market system (at least as free as under capitalism).  Most people aren't really capitalists in survival situations, and most people don't acknowledge how many aspects of modern life are survival situations.

If nobody owns anything, you can't have trade or a free market. You just have bureaucrats guessing how to allocate resources. And no, survival situations are vanishingly rare in modern life, and those situations typically don't involve trade anyway.

Who said anything about no one owning anything? What are you even talking about?

You did. You just said you can dispense with the notion of private ownership and have free trade.

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:04:51 PM
You did. You just said you can dispense with the notion of private ownership and have free trade.

I really didn't. I said you can dispense with the tenet of inviolable private ownership.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 05:07:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:04:51 PM
You did. You just said you can dispense with the notion of private ownership and have free trade.

I really didn't. I said you can dispense with the tenet of inviolable private ownership.

No you didn't. Whatever your intent, your statement can be interpreted multiple ways. In any case, inviolable private ownership has never existed and there's a very strong causitive correlation between the strength of private property rights and economic success, so even if your reinterpreted statement is technically true it's functionally incorrect.

Though I have no idea how this has anything to do with Mongoose, so if you want to continue the conversation it's probably best to start a thread in Pundit's forum.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 05:07:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:04:51 PM
You did. You just said you can dispense with the notion of private ownership and have free trade.

I really didn't. I said you can dispense with the tenet of inviolable private ownership.

Private ownership comes from the notion that you own yourself...

So lets say we dispose of the principle that private ownership isn't inviolable (meaning if you violate my rights you're commiting a crime).

What's the moral principle not to enslave people then?

What's the underpining for the crime of theft?

No, you can't have a free market unless you aknowledge the basic human right of private ownership. You also can't have freedom written large for any long ammount of time, because your society WILL devolve into tirany with the people being slaves if not of private owners of the state.

Corporate oligarchies are not the same thing as capitalism.  Letting McDonalds hire you and fire you has zero relationship with a corporate tac squad kicking down your door and riddling you with plasma rifle bursts because you downloaded the latest Marvel movie.  Dystopian stuff like OCP in RoboCop is fun for a story, but bears as much resemblance to an actual critique of capitalism as saying that socialism will end up with everyone plugged into vats of goo and powering the Matrix; it's hyperbolic and lazy.

I disclaim here that I haven't read over the setting, I'm taking peoples' word for it that it's trying for a capitalism bad critique rather than just something edgy and dark.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 04:04:30 PM
Capitalism's basic tenet is that private ownership is virtually inviolable. You can dispense with that notion and still have trade, even a fairly free market system (at least as free as under capitalism).  Most people aren't really capitalists in survival situations, and most people don't acknowledge how many aspects of modern life are survival situations.

  In a tiny economic ecosystem or a tiny homogenous population.  What "could" or "can" happen has been shown to be a complete bust on anything but small scales.   

  Though to be fair, I have no problem being a mercenary pulling murderhobo work on massive corporations and slaughtering their mindless sheep employees like orcs in a series of tunnels to "Stick it to the MAN!!".  Of course my character will be gathering profits for the venture at every turn.

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:14:00 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 05:07:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:04:51 PM
You did. You just said you can dispense with the notion of private ownership and have free trade.

I really didn't. I said you can dispense with the tenet of inviolable private ownership.

No you didn't. Whatever your intent, your statement can be interpreted multiple ways. In any case, inviolable private ownership has never existed and there's a very strong causitive correlation between the strength of private property rights and economic success, so even if your reinterpreted statement is technically true it's functionally incorrect.

Though I have no idea how this has anything to do with Mongoose, so if you want to continue the conversation it's probably best to start a thread in Pundit's forum.

Ayn Rand said taxation was theft. That's a statement you can make under capitalism. Clearly, that is not a statement compatible with any form of socialism. The reason this is relevant is people offering up the red herring that capitalism owns, invented, or is even vaguely good at market economies. I'm not the one trying to start a tangent. But several people have pointed out this error, and it's up to the perpetrators of that error to stop repeating it.

Back to that matter at hand, a lot of people seem to love the idea of free commerce and free speech, right up until someone publishes something that hurts their feelings. And I'm not talking about SJWs, I'm talking about the very idea of starting a discussion thread on this forum to cry about a book existing someone doesn't like. It isn't the "woke" characters in this situation who are promoting cancellation and attacking the right of a thing to exist, it's the anti-SJW crowd.

Mongoose's book isn't oppressing anyone.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 05, 2022, 02:22:35 AM
Mongoose's book isn't oppressing anyone.

lol.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 05, 2022, 02:22:35 AM
Back to that matter at hand, a lot of people seem to love the idea of free commerce and free speech, right up until someone publishes something that hurts their feelings. And I'm not talking about SJWs, I'm talking about the very idea of starting a discussion thread on this forum to cry about a book existing someone doesn't like. It isn't the "woke" characters in this situation who are promoting cancellation and attacking the right of a thing to exist, it's the anti-SJW crowd.

Mongoose's book isn't oppressing anyone.

Boycotts are completely valid. If you don't like a product, you can choose not to buy it. If you don't like a company that makes a product, you can choose not to buy anything from them - even if the product itself were fine. If you don't like someone who works for a company, you can choose not to buy anything from that company. If you don't like a principle that shows up in a particular product, you can choose not to buy it. Hell, if you don't like the hair growing out of the wart on the face of one of the people working for a company, you can choose not to buy anything from them.

It's also completely valid if you expect other people to not want to buy a product or support a company for the same reason you don't want to, to let like minded people know about it, so they can make the same choice themselves.

There is nothing about boycotts that is incompatible with free speech or free markets.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 05, 2022, 02:22:35 AM
It isn't the "woke" characters in this situation who are promoting cancellation and attacking the right of a thing to exist, it's the anti-SJW crowd.
Mongoose's book isn't oppressing anyone.

Hyperbole??! LOOOL

No one gives a shit if this book exists. No one here is trying to 'cancel' it.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 05, 2022, 02:22:35 AM

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:14:00 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on April 04, 2022, 05:07:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 05:04:51 PM
You did. You just said you can dispense with the notion of private ownership and have free trade.

I really didn't. I said you can dispense with the tenet of inviolable private ownership.

No you didn't. Whatever your intent, your statement can be interpreted multiple ways. In any case, inviolable private ownership has never existed and there's a very strong causitive correlation between the strength of private property rights and economic success, so even if your reinterpreted statement is technically true it's functionally incorrect.

Though I have no idea how this has anything to do with Mongoose, so if you want to continue the conversation it's probably best to start a thread in Pundit's forum.

Ayn Rand said taxation was theft. That's a statement you can make under capitalism. Clearly, that is not a statement compatible with any form of socialism. The reason this is relevant is people offering up the red herring that capitalism owns, invented, or is even vaguely good at market economies. I'm not the one trying to start a tangent. But several people have pointed out this error, and it's up to the perpetrators of that error to stop repeating it.

Back to that matter at hand, a lot of people seem to love the idea of free commerce and free speech, right up until someone publishes something that hurts their feelings. And I'm not talking about SJWs, I'm talking about the very idea of starting a discussion thread on this forum to cry about a book existing someone doesn't like. It isn't the "woke" characters in this situation who are promoting cancellation and attacking the right of a thing to exist, it's the anti-SJW crowd.

Mongoose's book isn't oppressing anyone.

Your entire paragraph about economics is complete nonsense, so according your own logic, it's up to you to stop perpetrating it.

Choosing not to buy something is not what anyone means when they use the word "canceling". It's certainly not attacking the right of a thing to exist. Which is a rather peculiar thing to say, because you're ascribing rights to inanimate objects.

QuoteChoosing not to buy something is not what anyone means when they use the word "canceling". It's certainly not attacking the right of a thing to exist. Which is a rather peculiar thing to say, because you're ascribing rights to inanimate objects.

But TBH vast majority of cancelling efforts are well within boycott range.
It's very efficient and organised but usually it does not include anything but threat to publishers/producers that wokesters stop buing their products if undesirable persons works for those publishers.

Quote from: pawsplay on April 05, 2022, 02:22:35 AM
a lot of people seem to love the idea of free commerce and free speech, right up until someone publishes something that hurts their feelings. And I'm not talking about SJWs, I'm talking about the very idea of starting a discussion thread on this forum to cry about a book existing someone doesn't like. It isn't the "woke" characters in this situation who are promoting cancellation and attacking the right of a thing to exist, it's the anti-SJW crowd.

Has anyone here taken action to prevent its publication? Has anyone here demanded changes be made or else? Has anyone here attempted to get the author banned from social media or wished them dead?

No one here is interfering with commerce or speech.

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2022, 04:14:30 AM
There is nothing about boycotts that is incompatible with free speech or free markets.

Indeed, and boycotts are only meaningful if private ownership is a thing.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 05, 2022, 04:16:31 PM
But TBH vast majority of cancelling efforts are well within boycott range.
It's very efficient and organised but usually it does not include anything but threat to publishers/producers that wokesters stop buing their products if undesirable persons works for those publishers.

Not sure where you've been, but their tactics typically go well beyond simply not buying a product they were never going to buy in the first place.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

So they are Viking warriors , born male, never took any hormones to transition, but they're also ladies??

Quote from: Trond on April 06, 2022, 11:01:12 AM
born male, never took any hormones to transition

Silence! One can never question the nature of magic.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 05, 2022, 04:16:31 PM

QuoteChoosing not to buy something is not what anyone means when they use the word "canceling". It's certainly not attacking the right of a thing to exist. Which is a rather peculiar thing to say, because you're ascribing rights to inanimate objects.

But TBH vast majority of cancelling efforts are well within boycott range.
It's very efficient and organised but usually it does not include anything but threat to publishers/producers that wokesters stop buing their products if undesirable persons works for those publishers.

No, that's wrong simply on the facts.  IANAL, but I think one of the typical lines that should not be crossed deals with "collusion" in other aspects.  It's not illegal or even unethical to try to lower your prices to get people to buy your thing over a competitor, for example. It can quickly cross that line if multiple sellers collude to fix prices.  It's not a problem to buy stock in a company for which you work.  It is quickly across that line to trade stock in that company based on "insider" information.

Likewise, boycotts are exactly as migo and others framed them.  This is personal behavior and free speech, with others also free to act or not act on that speech as they see fit.  Those are very clear lines.  Stepping across those lines includes such things as pressuring banks to not support the targeted company.  That's collusion with another entity to prevent otherwise legal commerce.  If a corporation tried those tactics against a competitor, they'd be hauled up to court so fast it would make your head spin.  See also "lawfare" as war by other means where "the process is the punishment", banning on platforms that take advantage in other contexts as a "neutral" content methods, libel and slander, the media, academics, and politicians that allow such abuses, etc.

That's all process.  Let's not get that confused with results.  The results of a hardcore "cancel" operation and a boycott can theoretically be the same.  If enough people boycott a product, it stops getting produced, because no one is buying it.  Which is also much the same as would happen with a product that was simply not very useful to enough people to justify its existence.   Cancelling being more hardcore, by any means necessary (the ends justify the means in the eyes of the woke, always), it is more likely to produce this result, but that's just scale.  This is very much a "means" discussion.  If the latest thing from Mongoose that is the topic of this thread does well, it does.  If it fails, it does,  If, as is more likely, it is somewhere in the middle, then it is up to Mongoose to decide if it is succeeding enough to continue. 

A good way to tell if you are across the process line is if you really must justify that action for it to make any sense.  If I don't buy the Mongoose product because of perceived politics or because I don't prefer the subject matter or I think it is not worth the list price or because I've been less than impressed with prior product's editing--none of that really matters from a process standpoint.  People don't buy things all the time, for a host of reasons.  If I feel strongly enough about it to try to convince others to boycott, then I still don't need to justify those reasons, but I need to articulate them and provide evidence.  (In my case, I don't buy because of what I perceive as poor editing relative to the price of the products, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to try to convince anyone else.  And everyone will have different tolerances there, anyway.  That doesn't say anything one way or the other about whether I might buy or not based on "wokeness" in their products, since I'm not going to look at it closely enough to determine if that's an issue for me.)  When you cross the line into "convince others not to buy" to "collude with various powers that be to make sure that no one can buy", the need for a justification just went through the roof.

The woke not having any principles, of course, they are incapable of understanding such distinctions.

If your RPG book makes an explicit goal (demonstrated through its adopting of weird jargon & tortured language) of preying on less able & mature people in an attempt to normalize harmful sexuality, then I have no interest in buying your book. Furthermore, I think it's perfectly appropriate and healthy to want you to never work again.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2022, 11:31:31 AM
Likewise, boycotts are exactly as migo and others framed them.  This is personal behavior and free speech, with others also free to act or not act on that speech as they see fit.  Those are very clear lines.  Stepping across those lines includes such things as pressuring banks to not support the targeted company.  That's collusion with another entity to prevent otherwise legal commerce.  If a corporation tried those tactics against a competitor, they'd be hauled up to court so fast it would make your head spin.  See also "lawfare" as war by other means where "the process is the punishment", banning on platforms that take advantage in other contexts as a "neutral" content methods, libel and slander, the media, academics, and politicians that allow such abuses, etc.

I'd agree that slander, libel, frivolous lawsuits, and such are clear abuses. However, I don't agree that pressuring banks is over the line unless the form of pressure is something that is already over the line. A bank is just another business - so it's valid to boycott banks just as much as boycotting any other business. Let's say I don't like the Chinese government. So I don't buy from Chinese companies. But let's say I find out that my American bank made a big business deal with China, so I join in a boycott and move my money to another bank. This boycott is pressuring the bank to change who it deals with.

I think that's a valid expression of my personal beliefs and free speech.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2022, 11:31:31 AM
A good way to tell if you are across the process line is if you really must justify that action for it to make any sense.  If I don't buy the Mongoose product because of perceived politics or because I don't prefer the subject matter or I think it is not worth the list price or because I've been less than impressed with prior product's editing--none of that really matters from a process standpoint.  People don't buy things all the time, for a host of reasons.  If I feel strongly enough about it to try to convince others to boycott, then I still don't need to justify those reasons, but I need to articulate them and provide evidence.  (In my case, I don't buy because of what I perceive as poor editing relative to the price of the products, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to try to convince anyone else.  And everyone will have different tolerances there, anyway.  That doesn't say anything one way or the other about whether I might buy or not based on "wokeness" in their products, since I'm not going to look at it closely enough to determine if that's an issue for me.)  When you cross the line into "convince others not to buy" to "collude with various powers that be to make sure that no one can buy", the need for a justification just went through the roof.

I'm not sure what this last bit is saying. Did you mean to say from "convince others not to buy"? So it's OK to, for example, say negative stuff about a company online and thus convince other people not to buy from them. I would think that is OK - it seems like free speech to me. And going to collusion is crossing the line.

The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2022, 11:31:31 AM
Likewise, boycotts are exactly as migo and others framed them.  This is personal behavior and free speech, with others also free to act or not act on that speech as they see fit.  Those are very clear lines.  Stepping across those lines includes such things as pressuring banks to not support the targeted company.  That's collusion with another entity to prevent otherwise legal commerce.  If a corporation tried those tactics against a competitor, they'd be hauled up to court so fast it would make your head spin.  See also "lawfare" as war by other means where "the process is the punishment", banning on platforms that take advantage in other contexts as a "neutral" content methods, libel and slander, the media, academics, and politicians that allow such abuses, etc.

I'd agree that slander, libel, frivolous lawsuits, and such are clear abuses. However, I don't agree that pressuring banks is over the line unless the form of pressure is something that is already over the line. A bank is just another business - so it's valid to boycott banks just as much as boycotting any other business. Let's say I don't like the Chinese government. So I don't buy from Chinese companies. But let's say I find out that my American bank made a big business deal with China, so I join in a boycott and move my money to another bank. This boycott is pressuring the bank to change who it deals with.

I think that's a valid expression of my personal beliefs and free speech.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2022, 11:31:31 AM
A good way to tell if you are across the process line is if you really must justify that action for it to make any sense.  If I don't buy the Mongoose product because of perceived politics or because I don't prefer the subject matter or I think it is not worth the list price or because I've been less than impressed with prior product's editing--none of that really matters from a process standpoint.  People don't buy things all the time, for a host of reasons.  If I feel strongly enough about it to try to convince others to boycott, then I still don't need to justify those reasons, but I need to articulate them and provide evidence.  (In my case, I don't buy because of what I perceive as poor editing relative to the price of the products, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to try to convince anyone else.  And everyone will have different tolerances there, anyway.  That doesn't say anything one way or the other about whether I might buy or not based on "wokeness" in their products, since I'm not going to look at it closely enough to determine if that's an issue for me.)  When you cross the line into "convince others not to buy" to "collude with various powers that be to make sure that no one can buy", the need for a justification just went through the roof.

I'm not sure what this last bit is saying. Did you mean to say from "convince others not to buy"? So it's OK to, for example, say negative stuff about a company online and thus convince other people not to buy from them. I would think that is OK - it seems like free speech to me. And going to collusion is crossing the line.

The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

So pressuring a bank to not allow YOU to have a bank account is okay?

Why am I not surprized you're for cancel culture too?

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

The line is similar with freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of trade.

If person A has something to say that person B wants to hear, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to listen to person A, they have crossed the line.

If person A and B want to associate with each other, and third parties have made it impossible for person A and B to associate with each other, they have crossed the line.

If person A wants to sell something and person B wants to buy it, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to buy from person A, they have crossed the line.

If you refuse to buy from someone on certain grounds, and they want your business, and change whatever it is that makes you not want to buy from them, that's their choice. So if a product is no longer available because they care more about your business than the business of the person who wanted to buy what you consider objectionable, that's not like the above scenarios.

Quote from: migo on April 06, 2022, 04:46:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

The line is similar with freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of trade.

If person A has something to say that person B wants to hear, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to listen to person A, they have crossed the line.

If person A and B want to associate with each other, and third parties have made it impossible for person A and B to associate with each other, they have crossed the line.

If person A wants to sell something and person B wants to buy it, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to buy from person A, they have crossed the line.

If you refuse to buy from someone on certain grounds, and they want your business, and change whatever it is that makes you not want to buy from them, that's their choice. So if a product is no longer available because they care more about your business than the business of the person who wanted to buy what you consider objectionable, that's not like the above scenarios.

It seems to me that your third and fourth paragraphs are contradictory. Let's say you refuse to buy from Publisher A based on their product line, but person B likes their current products. Because they want your business, Publisher A changes to cater more to you, and drops their old products. Now person B can't get the products they want any more because Publisher A has stopped selling them.


Boycotts potentially have the power to make companies go bankrupt and/or change their products. This means that if someone liked how the company was prior to the boycott, then the boycott has effectively denied them the ability to get what was previously offered.

I think boycotts in themselves are not unethical, though. The problems are things like lying, slander, malicious lawsuits, doxing, and personal threats.

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 05:57:54 PM

Quote from: migo on April 06, 2022, 04:46:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

The line is similar with freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of trade.

If person A has something to say that person B wants to hear, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to listen to person A, they have crossed the line.

If person A and B want to associate with each other, and third parties have made it impossible for person A and B to associate with each other, they have crossed the line.

If person A wants to sell something and person B wants to buy it, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to buy from person A, they have crossed the line.

If you refuse to buy from someone on certain grounds, and they want your business, and change whatever it is that makes you not want to buy from them, that's their choice. So if a product is no longer available because they care more about your business than the business of the person who wanted to buy what you consider objectionable, that's not like the above scenarios.

It seems to me that your third and fourth paragraphs are contradictory. Let's say you refuse to buy from Publisher A based on their product line, but person B likes their current products. Because they want your business, Publisher A changes to cater more to you, and drops their old products. Now person B can't get the products they want any more because Publisher A has stopped selling them.


Boycotts potentially have the power to make companies go bankrupt and/or change their products. This means that if someone liked how the company was prior to the boycott, then the boycott has effectively denied them the ability to get what was previously offered.

I think boycotts in themselves are not unethical, though. The problems are things like lying, slander, malicious lawsuits, doxing, and personal threats.

Meaning the publisher saw which demographic was bigger and decided they would be better off catering to the group that has the numbers.

Which isn't the same as threatening the publisher's ability to sell at all, because they could take an ideological stance and decide not to catter to the majority because whatever.

Meanwhile you'r stance that making a bank cancelling your accounts is a okay because it somehow isn't immoral...

I'm not surprized by your stance, what surprizes me is the brazen way in which you make such wild assertions.

First, the bank portion is exactly analogous to the "neutral content provider" versus publisher thing.  Basically, you don't get to have it both ways.  You can't say that you are a neutral and then forbid business on content grounds.  Being neutral carries with it exemption from all kinds of regulations and problems that do not apply otherwise. 

Second, there is yet another difference between business boycott pressure placed on one bank (or media outlet, or whatever) to become non-neutral (and thus responsible as a partisan actor to be held to the standards of a non-neutral party), and then taking that leap into a collusion to attempt to effectively get all banks to not support what is otherwise legal commerce. 

Third, there is the related push that we are beginning to see to restrict the cash economy with the explicit goal of locking people out, and the related to that broader push of the so called "social currency".  Which is essentially Orwell's 1984 through business. 

But we all know all this.  Some people just don't want to admit it because it isn't convenient to admit it yet.

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM

I'm not sure what this last bit is saying. Did you mean to say from "convince others not to buy"? So it's OK to, for example, say negative stuff about a company online and thus convince other people not to buy from them. I would think that is OK - it seems like free speech to me. And going to collusion is crossing the line.

The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

I don't believe you didn't understand that.  But on the off chance that you don't ... 

Refusing to buy and encouraging others not to buy is a boycott, and fine.  Doing an end-run through other purportedly neutral means to force the outcome is not.  It's basically a RICO violation done with politics as opposed to business or Mafia goals. 

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 05:57:54 PM

Quote from: migo on April 06, 2022, 04:46:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

The line is similar with freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of trade.

If person A has something to say that person B wants to hear, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to listen to person A, they have crossed the line.

If person A and B want to associate with each other, and third parties have made it impossible for person A and B to associate with each other, they have crossed the line.

If person A wants to sell something and person B wants to buy it, and third parties have made it impossible for person B to buy from person A, they have crossed the line.

If you refuse to buy from someone on certain grounds, and they want your business, and change whatever it is that makes you not want to buy from them, that's their choice. So if a product is no longer available because they care more about your business than the business of the person who wanted to buy what you consider objectionable, that's not like the above scenarios.

It seems to me that your third and fourth paragraphs are contradictory.

You're wrong, I clearly explained why the situations are different.

QuoteNot sure where you've been, but their tactics typically go well beyond simply not buying a product they were never going to buy in the first place.

Boycott is never "simply not buying a product". You need to signal publically you boycott, say why, and convince other to do the same. Possibly loudly. Personal private boycott is kinda useless boycott.

QuoteSo pressuring a bank to not allow YOU to have a bank account is okay?

Why am I not surprized you're for cancel culture too?

Pressuring any kind of private business to do ANYTHING is within valid frame of boycott as long as methods used are legal.
I mean boycott is more than "I'm not interested", boycott is always done to pressure private business into changing their practices.

QuoteStepping across those lines includes such things as pressuring banks to not support the targeted company.  That's collusion with another entity to prevent otherwise legal commerce.  If a corporation tried those tactics against a competitor, they'd be hauled up to court so fast it would make your head spin.  See also "lawfare" as war by other means where "the process is the punishment", banning on platforms that take advantage in other contexts as a "neutral" content methods, libel and slander, the media, academics, and politicians that allow such abuses, etc.

Both boycotters, bank and let's say evil publisher LGBTPandit are private members of market dealing with each other consensually. That also means bank may not do interests with you, and you cannot force bank. At least not within libertarian logic. As long as no one is forced by state or violence all is clear.
Now I'm not libertarian so I'd totally forbade banks doing it, and I fully support my own government controlling banning policy of Facebook and Twitter (several of my friends already were unbanned after asking specific governmental organisation to intervene), as I believe corporations so big, forming oligopole in important areas should be controlled - nevertheless, if Woke clients of bank gonna blackmail bank to not do business with LGBTPandit, and bank decide having their accounts is more important - then well business as usual.

For me it's well within boycott logic - boycott is not merely choice of not buying what you don't like, but organised effort to push something we consider harmful and detrimental from market. And as long as we use market mechanism - it's boycott.

QuoteSo pressuring a bank to not allow YOU to have a bank account is okay?

That depends. If you pressure a bank to not allow Evil Hat Productions to have account then it's very okay, noble and just :P

QuoteMeanwhile you'r stance that making a bank cancelling your accounts is a okay because it somehow isn't immoral...

I mean if bank gonna steal your money that's unethical. If it's just gonna cancel your account and sent you all the money in big wooden chest, then well - freedom of association and business.

QuoteRefusing to buy and encouraging others not to buy is a boycott, and fine.  Doing an end-run through other purportedly neutral means to force the outcome is not.  It's basically a RICO violation done with politics as opposed to business or Mafia goals.

Difference is Mafia or government can use force. Woke clients can just threaten bank with removing their assets from bank, unless it stop making deals with right-wingers.
Which does not break freedom of association.

But then I'm authoritarian so I'd totally ban banks from doing it, I just don't see where's break from freedom of association and business side.

Wrath, when a private entity engaged in public business begins to enjoy monopoly status, they also begin to function somewhat as a public entity.  The bigger and more comprehensive it gets, the more the public aspect engages. 

A large private entity is given quite a lot of leeway, typically, on the grounds that some of the cures are worse than the disease.  One of the exceptions to that leeway is cross-entity coordination in the same field, which begins to look like a lot like monopoly practices. 

QuoteWrath, when a private entity engaged in public business begins to enjoy monopoly status, they also begin to function somewhat as a public entity.  The bigger and more comprehensive it gets, the more the public aspect engages.

I agree. As I said I'm not libertarian, I have no problem with quashing freedoms of those pesky bankers :P
AFAIU USA bankers have lots of freedoms to dump undesirables in a ways I believe would be impossible in Good Ol' Continent, so woke boycotts can achieve quite... impossible achievements.

Nevertheless it's not something you can solve with libertarian politics.

Then obviously cancel culture still has large space of boycotting, when even that won't help. Actor hated by work will have a problem to get good job again, and while it's relatively easy to force banks to open accounts for ANYONE willing client, it's kinda hard to force directors to hire some evil!fascist scum or smth.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2022, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
I'm not sure what this last bit is saying. Did you mean to say from "convince others not to buy"? So it's OK to, for example, say negative stuff about a company online and thus convince other people not to buy from them. I would think that is OK - it seems like free speech to me. And going to collusion is crossing the line.

The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

I don't believe you didn't understand that.  But on the off chance that you don't ... 

Refusing to buy and encouraging others not to buy is a boycott, and fine.  Doing an end-run through other purportedly neutral means to force the outcome is not.  It's basically a RICO violation done with politics as opposed to business or Mafia goals.

I'm still actually not clear. Here's my angle: I hate the low attention-span social media culture, and I don't feel like the politics of RPGs either way has much effect on politics as a whole. When I want to be political, I act through means other than RPGs. So I generally don't care about edition wars and kerfluffles over RPG company politics.

However, I do support actual, organized, and thoughtful boycotts, though. This includes things like boycotts of banks to change their behavior. In a previous example, it seemed like you were saying that pressuring a bank was an ethical violation, which I disagree with. The big banks and credit card companies cause a host of problems, and I think it's appropriate to boycott and pressure them to change their policies.

If you're OK with boycotting banks to pressure them, then can you define what "doing an end-run through other purportedly neutral means" is?

Quote from: jhkim on April 07, 2022, 04:47:26 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2022, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 03:27:22 PM
I'm not sure what this last bit is saying. Did you mean to say from "convince others not to buy"? So it's OK to, for example, say negative stuff about a company online and thus convince other people not to buy from them. I would think that is OK - it seems like free speech to me. And going to collusion is crossing the line.

The problem I have with this phrasing is that "making sure no one can buy" is an outcome, not an action. If the result of a boycott is that the company shelves the product, then no one can buy that product any more. So if I join in boycott a company over a product, and it then stops making that product -- then this implies that I've crossed a line, because other people can't buy the product any more. But if I boycott the company and it ignores me, then I'm OK.

I don't believe you didn't understand that.  But on the off chance that you don't ... 

Refusing to buy and encouraging others not to buy is a boycott, and fine.  Doing an end-run through other purportedly neutral means to force the outcome is not.  It's basically a RICO violation done with politics as opposed to business or Mafia goals.

I'm still actually not clear. Here's my angle: I hate the low attention-span social media culture, and I don't feel like the politics of RPGs either way has much effect on politics as a whole. When I want to be political, I act through means other than RPGs. So I generally don't care about edition wars and kerfluffles over RPG company politics.

However, I do support actual, organized, and thoughtful boycotts, though. This includes things like boycotts of banks to change their behavior. In a previous example, it seemed like you were saying that pressuring a bank was an ethical violation, which I disagree with. The big banks and credit card companies cause a host of problems, and I think it's appropriate to boycott and pressure them to change their policies.

If you're OK with boycotting banks to pressure them, then can you define what "doing an end-run through other purportedly neutral means" is?

If you're a liberal you might not care because it doesn't affect you, but banks have started closing personal accounts of conservatives. That's not the result of pressure on banks for doing business with China, that's pressure on banks to prevent people with differing opinions from having bank accounts. And this isn't a slippery slope argument - it's already here and has been for years.

Quote from: migo on April 08, 2022, 06:42:06 AM

If you're a liberal you might not care because it doesn't affect you, but banks have started closing personal accounts of conservatives. That's not the result of pressure on banks for doing business with China, that's pressure on banks to prevent people with differing opinions from having bank accounts. And this isn't a slippery slope argument - it's already here and has been for years.

This.  And that's why "collusion" and "banks" (plural) is the key.  A boycott of a bank that supports X cause is still within the realms of private entities.  It may be inconvenient for the person excluded from the bank, but there's another bank that will do business.  Whereas, an organized effort to deny a individual all banking access in today's modern society is getting dangerously close to saying that aren't allowed to function.  I don't think you'd support an organized effort to deny the families of conservatives access to food. In our modern world, one is awfully close conceptually to the other.

Which brings up another key aspect of boycotts.  What is the collateral damage of the boycott?  If people do or don't buy this Mongoose product, or encourage or discourage others from doing so, the collateral damage potential is extremely low, approaching non-existent when you factor in the normal vagaries of the market. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 08, 2022, 08:38:19 AM
Whereas, an organized effort to deny a individual all banking access in today's modern society is getting dangerously close to saying that aren't allowed to function.

Close? It's downright tantamount.

Quote from: Zalman on April 08, 2022, 09:43:33 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 08, 2022, 08:38:19 AM
Whereas, an organized effort to deny a individual all banking access in today's modern society is getting dangerously close to saying that aren't allowed to function.

Close? It's downright tantamount.

I'd say it's open war and persecution, and a direct threat to the subsistence of those who fail to conform to the new orthodoxy. And not only a complete betrayal of the values that the so-called "left" once claimed to uphold, but completely disgusting, despicable and outright malicious behavior.

The "Left" went from "it's wrong to oppress and marginalize people, and the excesses of corporations, authoritative institutions and the establishment must be opposed at every turn" to "we are the establishment and it's ok to oppress, persecute and marginalize people, and ally with massive corporations to pursue that end, if we even think (not even know for a fact, but merely THINK) that those people might harbor wrong opinions or be in league with those we don't approve of—and we will hunt them to the ends of the Earth and make sure they can't even open a bank account or gain proper employment." And all of this gets excused for political expediency and tribal reasons, that purposefully seek to downplay the obvious impact and magnitude of what's actually going on, or where this might lead us for EVERYONE if this sort of shit gets normalized (which it already has, it just hasn't gotten widespread yet).

If black people, women or gays were denied bank accounts the Left would have a shit fit that would resonate across time and space. All society would grind to a halt and we wouldn't hear the end of it—and they'd be right to do it too! But since this now is happening to those they declared acceptable targets (under completely spurious and imaginary reasons) everything is open season, and not just accepted but outright excused.

This isn't oppression or purposeful marginalization, but normal forms of protest and standard operating procedure for businesses everywhere, who suddenly have the right to deny essential services and exercise their god given right of free association to avoid people who've been declared persona non grata through mob pressure without trial or oversight. And this is all ok because these people have no values, principles or morals, or even capacity for critical thought or foresight to see how this will eventually be applied to them as well once they stop being useful for the establishment and are just idiots. And the only standards they have are double standards that they apply to other people but not their own tribe.

Yet people complaining about the contents of a freaking game book they aren't even demanding be dropped out of Kickstarter or not be allowed in the shelves is somehow comparable to this! Like those two things are anywhere near the same freaking galaxy in what they entail.

Quote from: Zalman on April 08, 2022, 09:43:33 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 08, 2022, 08:38:19 AM
Whereas, an organized effort to deny a individual all banking access in today's modern society is getting dangerously close to saying that aren't allowed to function.

Close? It's downright tantamount.

There will be no problems as long as you love your friend the Computer I mean Washington and the liberal elite.

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2022, 05:57:54 PM
Boycotts potentially have the power to make companies go bankrupt and/or change their products. This means that if someone liked how the company was prior to the boycott, then the boycott has effectively denied them the ability to get what was previously offered.

A boycott means normal consumers change habits. A denial with force of law or slander is about denying otherwise paying customers the right to pursue normal spending habits.

Its the difference between a group of friends refusing to talk to bill because they think he is a dick, and a group of friends being forbidden by law to talk to bill.

This is a "the ends are the same, so the means are irrelevant" argument, which is nonsense.

Quote from: Trond on April 06, 2022, 11:01:12 AM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on March 11, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
So in their new RPG, called Shield Maidens, the rules say that Shield Maidens aren't necessarily born female.

So they are Viking warriors , born male, never took any hormones to transition, but they're also ladies??

Shield maidens with penises.

Quote from: DocJones on April 09, 2022, 03:06:53 PMShield maidens with penises.

Those Shield Maidens will win all the contests!

Because in clown world, men are just better at being women than women!

Quote from: Spinachcat on April 10, 2022, 02:32:21 AM

Quote from: DocJones on April 09, 2022, 03:06:53 PMShield maidens with penises.

Those Shield Maidens will win all the contests!

Because in clown world, men are just better at being women than women!

Would you bigots just shut up and suck the feminine penises!?

Jesus just got through reading this thread this is like an episode of Jerry springer. You even managed to get a mongoose guy in here, not sure what he does there but he seems to work for em.

As for the game based on everything shared here it really does seem like an sjw propaganda piece. The concept would have alright if it wasn't for the on the nose inserts. The language used is a dead give away, and the authors bio made me cringe.

I mean I totally get not wanting to be too paranoid in labeling something as whole garbage but I don't think we are jumping at shadows here.

Quote from: Ocule on April 11, 2022, 10:37:24 AM
and the authors bio made me cringe.

Bhadda-Bing!

Quote from: Ocule on April 11, 2022, 10:37:24 AM
Jesus just got through reading this thread this is like an episode of Jerry springer. You even managed to get a mongoose guy in here, not sure what he does there but he seems to work for em.

As for the game based on everything shared here it really does seem like an sjw propaganda piece. The concept would have alright if it wasn't for the on the nose inserts. The language used is a dead give away, and the authors bio made me cringe.

I mean I totally get not wanting to be too paranoid in labeling something as whole garbage but I don't think we are jumping at shadows here.

I thought people might be taking it a bit too hard after reading the primer, which is like 90%+ not about SJW crap. The author's a bit of an asshole, but you wouldn't notice the SJW stuff in the actual book unless you were deep into the Culture War and went looking for it (as I did). The game itself looks good going from the primer at least.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 11, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
I thought people might be taking it a bit too hard after reading the primer, which is like 90%+ not about SJW crap. The author's a bit of an asshole, but you wouldn't notice the SJW stuff in the actual book unless you were deep into the Culture War and went looking for it (as I did). The game itself looks good going from the primer at least.

I also perused it, and it didn't strike me as particularly woke either.

...nor particularly compelling. It could have easily been based on 5e, Traveller, or Legend as it doesn't do anything substantially different than any other task resolution system. And while it seems to be going for a Heavy Metal meets Green Lantern vibe it came off as surprisingly dull and generic.