Quote from: ForgottenF on August 20, 2024, 07:16:54 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 20, 2024, 11:40:51 AM

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on August 18, 2024, 02:17:07 PMBut some encounters will have conditions where I tell them up front, there are multiple ways to resolve this encounter, each version has a different XP reward.

This seems weirdly arbitrary to me. Do you tell them which solutions have which XP values? If so, then this isn't problem solving, it's selecting an option from a menu. If not, then how are they supposed to know which ones you feel are better than others?

Yeah I tried this route at one point and found I didn't like it. It felt too arbitrary. I think the better way to do this kind of thing is to assign XP to an objective, and then award it no matter how your players achieve it.

Yes.

One of the other ways I used to de-stress the "Gotta Kill 'em All!" attitude of players was to state clearly that alternate solutions and survival also gives you XP. So if you parley an encounter successfully with a temp benefit you get 75% XP, if you parley/bribe an encounter to leave each other alone get 50% XP, if you flee and survive you get 25% XP. An Ambush is its own reward, removing a combat threat more easily.

Then I give out alternate XP from the DMG, that list that favors the non-fighting classes, so thieves doing thieving things, casters doing caster things, etc. Yes it can leave fighters seemingly in the XP lurch, all that less than 100% XP for survival than glorious victory, but more early money to gear up helps make mid-to-late adventure fights easier. So sacks of meat or copper pieces as bribes as you go forth looting ends up being easier XP gain with less risk, greater loot return for better gear.

I mean some modern players live for that tactical battle rush, but often want it less fatal at the same time. If your game is not about that and offers many potential outcome options, well, in some ways it's more stressful because there's real decision making for every encounter. But you get used to it and find alternate solutions to the brute force method -- and that can be so fun too!

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 01, 2024, 01:00:53 AMOne of the other ways I used to de-stress the "Gotta Kill 'em All!" attitude of players was to state clearly that alternate solutions and survival also gives you XP. So if you parley an encounter successfully with a temp benefit you get 75% XP, if you parley/bribe an encounter to leave each other alone get 50% XP, if you flee and survive you get 25% XP. An Ambush is its own reward, removing a combat threat more easily.

Then I give out alternate XP from the DMG, that list that favors the non-fighting classes, so thieves doing thieving things, casters doing caster things, etc. Yes it can leave fighters seemingly in the XP lurch, all that less than 100% XP for survival than glorious victory, but more early money to gear up helps make mid-to-late adventure fights easier. So sacks of meat or copper pieces as bribes as you go forth looting ends up being easier XP gain with less risk, greater loot return for better gear.

I mean some modern players live for that tactical battle rush, but often want it less fatal at the same time. If your game is not about that and offers many potential outcome options, well, in some ways it's more stressful because there's real decision making for every encounter. But you get used to it and find alternate solutions to the brute force method -- and that can be so fun too!

I'm not a big fan of giving partial xp for parlaying, etc.  You get more of what you incentivize, and if you get more xp for killing it than talking to it, most people will default to kill.  The way I look at it, a monster is an obstacle to whatever the party wants.  Whether defeated, intimidated, bargained with, or tricked, once the monster is no longer standing in the way, the party should receive xp for the full value of the monster..

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 01, 2024, 04:29:12 PMThe way I look at it, a monster is an obstacle to whatever the party wants.  Whether defeated, intimidated, bargained with, or tricked, once the monster is no longer standing in the way, the party should receive xp for the full value of the monster..

Or get right to the heart of the matter, and stop giving out XP for "defeating monsters" as a general rule at all, and instead give XP only for getting "whatever the party wants".

Sure, sometimes, what they want will be to defeat an evil monster and that's fine too. But why award any XP for it if it's merely the obstacle to the goal?

If the monster itself isn't the Macguffin, I award ZERO XP. I've been playing this way 5 years now, and as soon as I started my players went from 99% combat to 66% combat to solve their problems. That metric is just right for me, so that tells me ZERO is just the right amount.

Quote from: Zalman on September 01, 2024, 06:44:22 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 01, 2024, 04:29:12 PMThe way I look at it, a monster is an obstacle to whatever the party wants.  Whether defeated, intimidated, bargained with, or tricked, once the monster is no longer standing in the way, the party should receive xp for the full value of the monster..

Or get right to the heart of the matter, and stop giving out XP for "defeating monsters" as a general rule at all, and instead give XP only for getting "whatever the party wants".

Sure, sometimes, what they want will be to defeat an evil monster and that's fine too. But why award any XP for it if it's merely the obstacle to the goal?

If the monster itself isn't the Macguffin, I award ZERO XP. I've been playing this way 5 years now, and as soon as I started my players went from 99% combat to 66% combat to solve their problems. That metric is just right for me, so that tells me ZERO is just the right amount.

Hey, if that works for your group, more power to you.  I like to differentiate the level of threat or difficulty by including the xp for the monster/guardian.  It makes  more sense to my group for a Macguffin guarded by a dragon to be worth more xp than one guarded by a few orcs.  Whether you roll that xp into the goal or just give it for bypassing/defeating the guardian seems to me a matter of taste...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 01, 2024, 10:52:56 PMWhether you roll that xp into the goal or just give it for bypassing/defeating the guardian seems to me a matter of taste...

It makes a big difference. What happens if the party slays the dragon but doesn't retrieve the Macguffin? In your game that result is rewarded, in mine it is not.

Quote from: Zalman on September 02, 2024, 03:03:59 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 01, 2024, 10:52:56 PMWhether you roll that xp into the goal or just give it for bypassing/defeating the guardian seems to me a matter of taste...

It makes a big difference. What happens if the party slays the dragon but doesn't retrieve the Macguffin? In your game that result is rewarded, in mine it is not.

If killing a dragon isn't accomplishing something in a game, then I don't know why anyone is playing...

EDIT:  I originally thought that our differences were just a matter of taste (just where or how to award xp for overcoming challenges).  Now, based on your reply and further thought, I see that your way is just stupid.  My mistake.  Only awarding xp for what the DM wants the players to do is the opposite of player agency.

Quote from: Zalman on September 02, 2024, 03:03:59 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 01, 2024, 10:52:56 PMWhether you roll that xp into the goal or just give it for bypassing/defeating the guardian seems to me a matter of taste...

It makes a big difference. What happens if the party slays the dragon but doesn't retrieve the Macguffin? In your game that result is rewarded, in mine it is not.

So slaying the dragon and perhaps getting its other treasure awards nothing? That is harsh. So basically the party has to jump through all quest hoops if they want to level up?

Greetings!

In my own campaigns, I provide XP to the Players for everything they do, based upon type of achievement and experience. Enthusiastically engaging in roleplaying, gets XP. Exploring new territory, geography and such, gets XP. Fighting and defeating evil monsters, likewise gains XP. Gaining treasure, successfully completing a particular Quest objective, as well as secondary goals, objectives, special challenges, all gain an XP reward.

I've been doing this for many, many years now. Such a XP system works very well, rewarding players appropriately for everything they do in the game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 06:17:58 PM

Quote from: Zalman on September 02, 2024, 03:03:59 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 01, 2024, 10:52:56 PMWhether you roll that xp into the goal or just give it for bypassing/defeating the guardian seems to me a matter of taste...

It makes a big difference. What happens if the party slays the dragon but doesn't retrieve the Macguffin? In your game that result is rewarded, in mine it is not.

If killing a dragon isn't accomplishing something in a game, then I don't know why anyone is playing...

EDIT:  I originally thought that our differences were just a matter of taste (just where or how to award xp for overcoming challenges).  Now, based on your reply and further thought, I see that your way is just stupid.  My mistake.  Only awarding xp for what the DM wants the players to do is the opposite of player agency.

This post is just dumb.  "I killed a thing now you must give me XP by the rules I demand.  Murder-hobo for life!"

I don't give XP just for killing things either.  I give goal based XP; You take mission, you complete mission, you get the XP rewards from the mission.  There are always multiple missions available and always open missions if players choose to pursue them.  If players want to kill a dragon and get XP for it, then they need to get a dragon slaying mission.

I actually use an old fashion D&D perspective on monsters, they aren't all evil.  Some are just going about their daily lives, some are benevolent.  Many monsters, like dragons, I play as NPCs.  If you just stab shit because it looks different, then you're just an evil asshole

Quote from: BadApple on September 03, 2024, 08:21:10 AMIf players want to kill a dragon and get XP for it, then they need to get a dragon slaying mission.

I put it to you that if someone brought the head of a Mexican cartel to FBI HQ in Washington, they would receive fame, glory and reward even if nobody had asked them to do it.

Some things are quite simply glorious and should be rewarded. I do not understand how anyone could spend five minutes playing a roleplaying game, watching an adventure movie or reading a fantasy, scifi or historical fiction novel and not understand glorious heroism.

You are morally-deficient, which I assume must come from playing D&D5e or something equally dreadful.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 03, 2024, 08:31:22 AM

Quote from: BadApple on September 03, 2024, 08:21:10 AMIf players want to kill a dragon and get XP for it, then they need to get a dragon slaying mission.

I put it to you that if someone brought the head of a Mexican cartel to FBI HQ in Washington, they would receive fame, glory and reward even if nobody had asked them to do it.

Some things are quite simply glorious and should be rewarded. I do not understand how anyone could spend five minutes playing a roleplaying game, watching an adventure movie or reading a fantasy, scifi or historical fiction novel and not understand glorious heroism.

You are morally-deficient, which I assume must come from playing D&D5e or something equally dreadful.

Are all dragons evil? No, not according to the MM.  You're being just as dumb as he is with this bullshit.

If a dragon shows up in town and starts a rampage then yeah, kill it.  If you have to take a month long hike to it's home to burglarize it's home and murder it having dinner then you're a shit.  Why would people believe it let alone celebrate that?

Quote from: BadApple on September 03, 2024, 08:21:10 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 06:17:58 PMIf killing a dragon isn't accomplishing something in a game, then I don't know why anyone is playing...

EDIT:  I originally thought that our differences were just a matter of taste (just where or how to award xp for overcoming challenges).  Now, based on your reply and further thought, I see that your way is just stupid.  My mistake.  Only awarding xp for what the DM wants the players to do is the opposite of player agency.

This post is just dumb.  "I killed a thing now you must give me XP by the rules I demand.  Murder-hobo for life!"

I don't give XP just for killing things either.  I give goal based XP; You take mission, you complete mission, you get the XP rewards from the mission.  There are always multiple missions available and always open missions if players choose to pursue them.  If players want to kill a dragon and get XP for it, then they need to get a dragon slaying mission.

BadApple - is it impossible for PCs to work for themselves, then, in your games? They always have to be employed by NPCs to do what NPCs want, and they never pursue their own goals?

I can picture that, but it's very different from how I run games.

Quote from: BadApple on September 03, 2024, 08:38:28 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 03, 2024, 08:31:22 AM

Quote from: BadApple on September 03, 2024, 08:21:10 AMIf players want to kill a dragon and get XP for it, then they need to get a dragon slaying mission.

I put it to you that if someone brought the head of a Mexican cartel to FBI HQ in Washington, they would receive fame, glory and reward even if nobody had asked them to do it.

Some things are quite simply glorious and should be rewarded. I do not understand how anyone could spend five minutes playing a roleplaying game, watching an adventure movie or reading a fantasy, scifi or historical fiction novel and not understand glorious heroism.

You are morally-deficient, which I assume must come from playing D&D5e or something equally dreadful.

Are all dragons evil? No, not according to the MM.  You're being just as dumb as he is with this bullshit.

If a dragon shows up in town and starts a rampage then yeah, kill it.  If you have to take a month long hike to it's home to burglarize it's home and murder it having dinner then you're a shit.  Why would people believe it let alone celebrate that?

Greetings!

Yeah, in my own campaign world of Thandor, there are both evil and good Dragons. That is also more or less in-line with our own historical mythology, as well as the traditional rules.

I also use a Skill system in my game, so that various skills and specialized Knowledge can be a very interesting and useful asset to have. Good dragons can make the absolute best of allies and friends. Regardless of what Class your character is, a Dragon is sure to be able to teach you plenty. Even with non-professional class skills, a Dragon's knowledge and lore of geography, history, herbalism, animals, magic, and so many things has simply got to be pretty fantastic. Add in flying, powerful magical abilities, and the raw combat power to take on and annihilate entire mortal armies is a creature worth paying attention to--and befriending, if possible.

Challenging any Dragon in combat is a terrifying prospect. Unless the Dragon is younger and much reduced in stature and power, taking on a full-strength Dragon can easily be a fatal proposition for any party of Adventurers. Furthermore, attempting to defeat a Dragon in such a manner may provoke the creature's immense wrath, whereupon the Dragon takes vengeance against one or more nearby communities. This can by itself be similiar to a nuclear missile stroke, with absolute death, devastation, and ruin for such communities. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, whatever. They all die like matchsticks before the blaze of wrath. Like cutting down ripe wheat.

My players always seriously consider WTF they are doing anytime a Dragon enters the scene. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on September 03, 2024, 04:07:53 PMGreetings!

Yeah, in my own campaign world of Thandor, there are both evil and good Dragons. That is also more or less in-line with our own historical mythology, as well as the traditional rules.

I also use a Skill system in my game, so that various skills and specialized Knowledge can be a very interesting and useful asset to have. Good dragons can make the absolute best of allies and friends. Regardless of what Class your character is, a Dragon is sure to be able to teach you plenty. Even with non-professional class skills, a Dragon's knowledge and lore of geography, history, herbalism, animals, magic, and so many things has simply got to be pretty fantastic. Add in flying, powerful magical abilities, and the raw combat power to take on and annihilate entire mortal armies is a creature worth paying attention to--and befriending, if possible.

Challenging any Dragon in combat is a terrifying prospect. Unless the Dragon is younger and much reduced in stature and power, taking on a full-strength Dragon can easily be a fatal proposition for any party of Adventurers. Furthermore, attempting to defeat a Dragon in such a manner may provoke the creature's immense wrath, whereupon the Dragon takes vengeance against one or more nearby communities. This can by itself be similiar to a nuclear missile stroke, with absolute death, devastation, and ruin for such communities. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, whatever. They all die like matchsticks before the blaze of wrath. Like cutting down ripe wheat.

My players always seriously consider WTF they are doing anytime a Dragon enters the scene. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Rgr on that !

That is one thing I didn't like about 1e how it nerfed dragons. Dragons are Samug. They destroy towns, ruin dwarf holds, eat everyon and every thing, ruin areas, hoard wealth etc. And ARE TO BE FEARED ! (even the good ones should be scarry ... What is the Lewis quote about Aslan "He is a good lion but he is NOT a tame lion so ..." )

I know it isn't a perfect example, but it is close. I'm in the middle of an CoC/DG mission with my girls' game. There is a serial killer murder spree going on and they have to figure out who/why and stop it. There is an ancient Mesopotamian cult of the vermin goddess and some 'ratlings' in the city doing it. However, there is also a group of (Lovecraft type living) ghouls there too not doing the killing and being attacked by the cult/ratlings themselves. The group did they things they needed to to stumble onto the ghouls and the ghouls made contact with the group to offer an alliance. They didn't go murder hobo and kill the ghouls (despite knowing they were cannibals eating the dead and possibly a type of corrupted degenerate humans) and they actually talked with them and made a good mutualy helpful agreement with them.

With that (if they survive the coming fight with the cult & ratlings) at the end of the mission, they will get extra sanity back for making the deal with the ghouls and they will get some clues that will help on a future mission (and possibly have a long term allies to get 'supernatural info' from). It isn't exactly the same as awarding exp but they defeated the ghouls by making them allies.