The players aren't going to ruin anything by being hyperwealthy since the D&D economy is stupid if you take it too seriously.

It's not like a money sink is a requirement.  However, if you:

1. Want to give out large sums of money, and
2. Want to use pseuo-medieval, quasi-historic prices, and
3. Have players actually care about the cost of things.

Then your options are rather limited.  You need a way to remove some of that gold that is coming in.  Or you need some crazy inflated costs on things for them to buy (that they really want). Or you need to move the game into the "volume purchasing" area, which is kind of what building castles and domains and hiring armies does (amongst other things).  Or something along those lines.

If you don't care about all three of the items on that list, then none of the latter stuff matters all that much (absent some other reason that is pushing it back to the forefront).

Finally, "money sink" is the game description of the process where this problem gets addressed.  In the setting, it's a whole lot better if whatever you use for the sink is:

1. Relevant to the setting, and seems to fit.
2. Actually does the job on pulling money out of the campaign.
3. Serves other purposes besides just being a transparent sink.

Given some care and thought, "money sinks" are never just sinks, but are a natural outgrowth of a consistent setting. 

It would be rather stupid to only value training costs for their money sink effect and keep them for that reason alone, not caring about anything else involved.  A GM would be far better served to find another option.  However, if you like training costs for other reasons, the money sink effect is a nice bonus.

Steven Mitchell (depending on how fast I type he's post above me), had a good point in that thread too: the part that sucks is the lack of options. You wanna level, you pay up.

I reread the rule and I think it makes sense. Yeah it's odd to give all that gold and then find ways to take it away, but it makes sense. You gotta give out gold  so the players can level up, but you can't have them be too wealthy or they won't really have a reason to keep exploring and adventuring. The fighter might have 2,000gp after adventuring, but he's about to spend 1,500 of it to level up, which leaves him with 500gp for new equipment and hiring henchmen. But now he's got better stuff, which makes the adventuring go easier which means he keeps more, etc. I get the idea, but like Steven said: there's no options.

I agree with the others that said I should at least try it first before modding it, I mean that's how I generally run my games, I just wasn't sure about it. I have experience with 2e, but that game generally doesn't use gold = xp so you have less anyway.

That said, I like the idea of foregoing paying a trainer to save money, but you also take longer to level up. Something else I'd be curious to know is how Weapon Mastery and other secondary options could work in as a side to training. To explain, in BECMI you had the weapon mastery rules which required time and money to train, and in the end you got some sort of bonus in combat with your weapon of choice. I can already tell it was a way to get players to spend their money in order to directly upgrade themselves and increase survival odds. I honestly wouldn't mind trying to implement that into AD&D, but perhaps modify the weapon mastery rules to make them a bit more generic: bonus to-hit, bonus to weapon speed, and maybe a bonus to damage. Maybe even allow some weapons outside of class, but only to a certain point of mastery. Perhaps thieves can learn to use bows, but only to the very basics; they can't specialize since it's not a class weapon.

Another idea I really liked is the Glantri Schools of Magic. You spend an obscene amount of gold to access one of seven schools of magic, which give you special abilities you can use x times per day/week/month plus all the clout you can roleplay with it. It's sort of the same idea, and you can take it as far as you want to.

I like that sort of stuff in games and I know my players like it too. You're not forced to spend the gold to get those bonuses, but you can and if you do you're rewarded for it. It's not like it's cheap either: just to learn the basic skill level for a weapon is 1 week of training and 700gp. I guess I just wish there was more of that rather than paying 1,500gp. Almost as if you could keep your money, but divert it somewhere else like henchmen or buying some property or better equipment, etc.

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 03:57:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 03:17:03 PM
I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

How much does 100k gp weigh and where are you storing it? That's a king's ransom, my friend. Better build some sort of underground labyrinth to store it. Pay some monsters to guard it. You can even build a tomb down there, so you can be near it when you die.

Conversion into gems is the usual answer to that, if it didn't come in that way, which it usually did. And with all that cash, hiring guards and building a fortress is no problem. Though any low level mooks dumb enough to try and rob a party of (say) 9th level adventurers is gonna get what they deserve. High level adversaries usually have bigger fish to fry.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 07:11:10 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 03:57:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 03:17:03 PM
I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

How much does 100k gp weigh and where are you storing it? That's a king's ransom, my friend. Better build some sort of underground labyrinth to store it. Pay some monsters to guard it. You can even build a tomb down there, so you can be near it when you die.

Conversion into gems is the usual answer to that. And with all that cash, hiring guards and building a fortress is no problem. Though any low level mooks dumb enough to try and rob a party of (say) 9th level adventurers is gonna get what they deserve. High level adversaries usually have bigger fish to fry.

Guards are a weak link. So don't forget to hire guards to guard against the guards.

Gems are a good choice. Art and titles have also worked well for me. I have a simple renown mechanic that works with donations as well as heroic deeds, and some players enjoy wasting money on prestige. 

The end game is normally building a castle or thieves guild or whatever and that requires a lot of cash. So the money sink idea is not to bankrupt them, but to keep them hungry for more treasure.

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 07:22:50 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 07:11:10 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 03:57:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 03:17:03 PM
I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

How much does 100k gp weigh and where are you storing it? That's a king's ransom, my friend. Better build some sort of underground labyrinth to store it. Pay some monsters to guard it. You can even build a tomb down there, so you can be near it when you die.

Conversion into gems is the usual answer to that. And with all that cash, hiring guards and building a fortress is no problem. Though any low level mooks dumb enough to try and rob a party of (say) 9th level adventurers is gonna get what they deserve. High level adversaries usually have bigger fish to fry.

Guards are a weak link. So don't forget to hire guards to guard against the guards.

Like I said, pissing off a party of adventurers, especially if they pay well and treat their hirelings well, is usually not a healthy choice.
And if some guard snags a handful of gold, man, who's going to miss it? The stuff is everywhere.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 07:11:10 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 03:57:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 03:17:03 PM
I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

How much does 100k gp weigh and where are you storing it? That's a king's ransom, my friend. Better build some sort of underground labyrinth to store it. Pay some monsters to guard it. You can even build a tomb down there, so you can be near it when you die.

Conversion into gems is the usual answer to that, if it didn't come in that way, which it usually did. And with all that cash, hiring guards and building a fortress is no problem. Though any low level mooks dumb enough to try and rob a party of (say) 9th level adventurers is gonna get what they deserve. High level adversaries usually have bigger fish to fry.

I find it hard to accept that reasoning when that's exactly the type of adventure the PC's are doing all the time.

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 11:33:23 AM
I don't know!

I don't consider it a problem. But then again I don't have Ye Olde Magick Shoppe for players to clean out and potentially break the game. 

Like I said in the other thread, I provide opportunities to buy properties, titles (with holdings and duties attached), ships, and anything else that was normally for sale in the 13th to 16th centuries.

It is also very hard to keep a fortune of gold safe and secure.

The last sentence, says what I was thinking.  Unless they can store their haul away in a pocket dimension; how successful can they possibly be, at hanging on to it?  If they place it in some type of bank, instant taxes are going to be assessed; and the bank might even get robbed and lose it all.  They don't have any supposed FDIC protection.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2024, 02:52:13 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 07, 2024, 02:47:17 PM
I don't have a problem with the concept of training and associated costs but the amounts for training as written almost always leave adventurers having to adventure for more cash without getting xp for it because they can't gain any more until they actually gain the level. This is especially problematic for low xp classes such as clerics and thieves at lower levels.

So, by what percentage would you lower the training costs?

Not quite sure by how much but from an economic perspective there really wouldn't be any adventurers over 6th level or so in the world. With training fees being what they are everyone would just open a school and train others instead of adventuring past that point. With just a handful of students they could make more money than they could adventuring without any risk.

Quote from: Mishihari on February 08, 2024, 03:42:20 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 07:11:10 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 03:57:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 03:17:03 PM
I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

How much does 100k gp weigh and where are you storing it? That's a king's ransom, my friend. Better build some sort of underground labyrinth to store it. Pay some monsters to guard it. You can even build a tomb down there, so you can be near it when you die.

Conversion into gems is the usual answer to that, if it didn't come in that way, which it usually did. And with all that cash, hiring guards and building a fortress is no problem. Though any low level mooks dumb enough to try and rob a party of (say) 9th level adventurers is gonna get what they deserve. High level adversaries usually have bigger fish to fry.

I find it hard to accept that reasoning when that's exactly the type of adventure the PC's are doing all the time.

Circle of life.

  This sounds like your RPGs needs the solution of modern accounting business practices like double entry bookkeeping and tax itemization! Tell us how it goes!  Be sure to have players fill out VAT invoices in triplicate!

Has anyone considered maybe just handing out less treasure to begin with?

If the idea is to keep the PCs "hungry" then maybe not offering three year's wages per adventurer isn't a good idea?*

Similarly, why are the bandits living in a cave with enough treasure in their stash for all of them to be debauching themselves somewhere for the next month? Why are tombs so loaded down with gold and jewels that you could fund a year long military campaign with what's down there?

Just as an excercise, have the NPC hiring the PCs offer "enough coin to cover a month's worth of food and lodging" instead of a hard number of coins. Describe the value of a treasure as "you could fill your bellies at the tavern for a week with the treasure you just found."

The main reason you need a money sink is the disconnect between the value of a gold piece and real currencies. I know a lot of people who default to 1gp = $1 when it's realistically more like 1 CP = $5.

A 100gp/PC reward is like offering a $200,000+ bounty in the real world. In the United States that's the four times the average ANNUAL salary for a professional bounty hunter (probably the closest equivalent to a PC adventurer).

The only reason you need a money sink is because the cost of normal goods doesn't match the exorbitant inflation of the adventuring rewards. Bringing in a local bandit or killer should offer a reward of 10gp total (bounty hunters are typically paid 10% of the bail amount the jumper skipped on... $50k bail means the bounty hunter brings in $5k or 1000cp = 10gp)... not 100gp per adventurer (and certainly not paid in advance).

So either fix the size of the rewards or the price of normal goods to match the rewards and you no longer need a money sink.

* The average laborer makes 1sp/day, 3gp/month, or 36gp/year. I routinely see adventures where someone offering first level PCs 100gp each to go on the adventure.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 08, 2024, 03:58:19 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 07, 2024, 11:33:23 AM
Like I said in the other thread, I provide opportunities to buy properties, titles (with holdings and duties attached), ships, and anything else that was normally for sale in the 13th to 16th centuries.

It is also very hard to keep a fortune of gold safe and secure.

The last sentence, says what I was thinking.  Unless they can store their haul away in a pocket dimension; how successful can they possibly be, at hanging on to it?  If they place it in some type of bank, instant taxes are going to be assessed; and the bank might even get robbed and lose it all.  They don't have any supposed FDIC protection.

The usual pirate solution is to bury the gold in an uninhabited place where only the PCs know. That's what the the dwarves did with the trolls' treasure in The Hobbit, for example. In the real world, this is very secure, the problem is just that you're not earning interest on the money.

The GM could come up with excuses to take buried treasure away - like gold-sniffing wandering monsters, but if those are common enough to scour all the wilderness, then the PCs should have a chance to know about them.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 08, 2024, 10:53:46 AM
Has anyone considered maybe just handing out less treasure to begin with?

If the idea is to keep the PCs "hungry" then maybe not offering three year's wages per adventurer isn't a good idea?*

Similarly, why are the bandits living in a cave with enough treasure in their stash for all of them to be debauching themselves somewhere for the next month? Why are tombs so loaded down with gold and jewels that you could fund a year long military campaign with what's down there?

Just as an excercise, have the NPC hiring the PCs offer "enough coin to cover a month's worth of food and lodging" instead of a hard number of coins. Describe the value of a treasure as "you could fill your bellies at the tavern for a week with the treasure you just found."

The main reason you need a money sink is the disconnect between the value of a gold piece and real currencies. I know a lot of people who default to 1gp = $1 when it's realistically more like 1 CP = $5.

A 100gp/PC reward is like offering a $200,000+ bounty in the real world. In the United States that's the four times the average ANNUAL salary for a professional bounty hunter (probably the closest equivalent to a PC adventurer).

The only reason you need a money sink is because the cost of normal goods doesn't match the exorbitant inflation of the adventuring rewards. Bringing in a local bandit or killer should offer a reward of 10gp total (bounty hunters are typically paid 10% of the bail amount the jumper skipped on... $50k bail means the bounty hunter brings in $5k or 1000cp = 10gp)... not 100gp per adventurer (and certainly not paid in advance).

So either fix the size of the rewards or the price of normal goods to match the rewards and you no longer need a money sink.

* The average laborer makes 1sp/day, 3gp/month, or 36gp/year. I routinely see adventures where someone offering first level PCs 100gp each to go on the adventure.

In my 5e game I'm currently using 1 sp = £5, which is pretty much exactly what 1/50 lb of silver is worth right now. So 1 cp = 50p and 1 gp = £50. This helps me keep monetary rewards sane and spot when a published adventure is way off, like one I just ran was offering PCs 100gp for every CR 1/8 Bandit they killed. I made it 200gp for the whole gang, including the leaders, and rescuing a prisoner.