I keep seeing the same idea come up in the AD&D training cost thread. The prevailing sentiment seems to be that some kind of money sink is necessary. Some way to get gold out of the hands of the player characters. This is sage wisdom and goes unquestioned.

Why?

If you don't have some mechanism for removing the wealth the player characters have obtained in their adventures, they will ruin the game by... fill in the blank

I don't know!

I don't consider it a problem. But then again I don't have Ye Olde Magick Shoppe for players to clean out and potentially break the game. 

Like I said in the other thread, I provide opportunities to buy properties, titles (with holdings and duties attached), ships, and anything else that was normally for sale in the 13th to 16th centuries.

It is also very hard to keep a fortune of gold safe and secure.

AD&D assumes taxes, training costs, hirelings, etc.

Get rid of that and the PCs will soon be wealthy beyond belief.

This is not necessarily a problem, especially if you then go to domain management and they spend their money os castles, etc.

But simply carrying lots of gold is not a thing most fantasy heroes do. They only get wealthy if they get the appropriate titles of nobility. Elric, Conan, Aragorn, John Carter, etc.

My PCs considered retiring at level 6 once, but then decided against it. They gave their money to a "banker" (at 10% cost) they trust because it was too heavy.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 07, 2024, 11:02:12 AM
If you don't have some mechanism for removing the wealth the player characters have obtained in their adventures, they will ruin the game by... fill in the blank

Retiring.

Besides levelling up way faster?

Here's another argument for having things cost money:

Immersion, how the fuck do your PCs get paid if ANYONE can get the training for free?

Why would an animal handler teach you for free? You might then cut into his market share, thus cutting the money he needs to keep his family alive.

Don't get me wrong, people are free to play in a communist utopia if they like, IDGAFF, but then it's not D&D anymore.

Money is supposed to be the reward for adventuring.  Something that's just a number on your character sheet is pretty boring.  Money should be usable for something fun.

Also retiring.

I dunno, just put some magic items for sale or allow the PCs to do domain stuff.  Both of those were the money sinks long ago when I ran those games.  I think a lot of people don't like those two things, so they ban those and try to turn the money into something else.


Edit: missed a "don't" as in "don't like", which made my post not greatly coherent.

I don't have a problem with the concept of training and associated costs but the amounts for training as written almost always leave adventurers having to adventure for more cash without getting xp for it because they can't gain any more until they actually gain the level. This is especially problematic for low xp classes such as clerics and thieves at lower levels.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 07, 2024, 02:47:17 PM
I don't have a problem with the concept of training and associated costs but the amounts for training as written almost always leave adventurers having to adventure for more cash without getting xp for it because they can't gain any more until they actually gain the level. This is especially problematic for low xp classes such as clerics and thieves at lower levels.

So, by what percentage would you lower the training costs?

I'm not asking anyone to justify training costs. There is already a thread about that.

Why does a game need a money sink? What breaks if player characters amass lots of wealth?

I think a training cost is fine, however I do not use it as a money sink.  I make it 100/level period and its done.  Thousands per level is insane IMO.  I am not a fan of a money sink.  If you want to play a more sword and sorcery vibe there are games that simulate that better than AD&D IMO (GURPS and even the Conan game with 3.5 rules) and then wealth is burnt by bad decisions by the character.   Which is realistic IMO people who live for adrenaline (IRL professional athletes, especially fighers) often BURN up cash all the time chasing the feeling they have when competing/doing their adrenaline activity and find themselves broke pretty fast if the money stops coming in. 

   I do not think AD&D ever really was sword and sorcery though, it was always more its own thing and the characters are almost always motivated by financial reward (even the Paladin who can only have as much wealth as he can carry on a horse has EXCELLENT gear and weapons and burns money like crazy on gear and upgrades) and it would make sense at some point the characters amass a bit of wealth.   Protecting it can present a problem and IMO is a better in game mechanic to remove wealth...after all if you get rich enough at some point your manor will become some other group (evil or neutral) of adventurers "Dungeon" to be explored and looted.   

   I prefer to have the players look to spend on things they want and in the form of hirelings and henchmen there is a perfect mechanic to burn extra cash.   Add in building some form of home or base that is fortified and maintained and its pretty easy to keep players using their money to constantly upgrade their lifestyle rather than looking for ways to suck money away from them.   If they prefer to just stack money in a vault...I am fine with that too. 

  I would add this...putting some material advantage into using your money like a slight increase in a reaction check with a possible quest giver/lord/npc for having a set of gear/armor that is very appealing to the eye (enameled armor, exquisite engraving/inlays on armor and shields, gems in pommels of swords, etc) will drive players to consider making themselves look more like gold chased heroes instead of murder hobos in dirty gear...and as a side deal find a useful and fun way to use the rewards they have gained.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 07, 2024, 02:54:47 PM
I'm not asking anyone to justify training costs. There is already a thread about that.

Why does a game need a money sink? What breaks if player characters amass lots of wealth?

The main issue with players having to too much money in the first place is that most DMs today don't use the original rules and don't give out XP for the full cash value of magic items. If you do give XP for magic items, you won't need to stock your dungeons with nearly as much cash in the first place.

From what I've seen, most DMs want their PCs to be broke because it is much easier to run a campaign that way. In fact, many new game rules include some sort of method, such as "carousing," precisely to keep their PCs money hungry. The reason for this is that it is trivial to set an adventure hook up as "someone want to pay the party to do X". Without the need for money, DMs will need to come up with more creative reasons for getting the PCs off their proverbial couches.

Coming up with ways to motivate the PCs or allowing the PCs to come up with their own adventure ideas both require more work on the part of the DM. That's what "breaks" the game.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 07, 2024, 02:54:47 PM
I'm not asking anyone to justify training costs. There is already a thread about that.

Why does a game need a money sink? What breaks if player characters amass lots of wealth?

Depends on the campaign. Most old school campaigns don't let you buy even magic consumables, much less magic items. So the adventurers just get all this gold, and then throw it away or make a money bin. After even extravagant living expenditures, most adventurers will be rolling in cash. I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

So long as you don't let them buy magic items, nothing really breaks, except maybe when the players realize that xp for treasure is kinda silly and gold is valueless to adventurers past a minimum of upkeep.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2024, 03:17:03 PM
I remember having characters with hundreds of thousands of GP sitting on their character sheet, even after training and magic research and material components, and carousing.

How much does 100k gp weigh and where are you storing it? That's a king's ransom, my friend. Better build some sort of underground labyrinth to store it. Pay some monsters to guard it. You can even build a tomb down there, so you can be near it when you die.