In preparation for running a Moldvay campaign for the kids, I was perusing the rules and discovered something interesting.
Way back when, we'd always played that in order to cast M-U spells you needed to be in cloth armor --nothing else allowed. However, it seems that Moldvay doesn't have that rule restriction for Elves, although it is in place for M-U's. I went over and checked the Moldvay Expert Set, but nothing there either. Finally, I checked the AD&D 1e PH, and while there's a restriction for Elves for Thieving multi-classing (page 16), there's nothing explicit about Elves and Armor with M-U multiclassing there.
Am I reading this wrong, or did we interpret the rules wrong way back when?
Elves can cast while wearing armor.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;695347Elves can cast while wearing armor.
Damn.
We always avoided the Elves mainly because they seemed weaker than the other classes --who'd want to wield a sword and wear cloth armor because they wanted to cast spells-- but now I can see how much more powerful they are.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;695350Damn.
We always avoided the Elves mainly because they seemed weaker than the other classes --who'd want to wield a sword and wear cloth armor because they wanted to cast spells-- but now I can see how much more powerful they are.
They are a powerful class but it does take 4000 XP to reach 2nd level. A thief or cleric will be 3rd level before the elf hits 2nd.
Spending that much time at 1st level with a single d6 hit point pool means that every elf level 2 or higher is very lucky.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;695352They are a powerful class but it does take 4000 XP to reach 2nd level. A thief or cleric will be 3rd level before the elf hits 2nd.
Spending that much time at 1st level with a single d6 hit point pool means that every elf level 2 or higher is very lucky.
I'd consider the Elf and the M-U getting to 2nd level about equal in luck, because at least the Elf has metal armor and d6 HP dice. The M-U with cloth armor and d4 HP dice --and 2500 xp to 2nd level-- is also very hamstrung at the beginning.
To shift gears, does that mean that in 1e an Elf could wear armor and cast M-U spells too?
What is cloth armor? Is that the same as clothing, or does it provide an AC bonus? Moldvay magic-users can't wear any armor.
From memory: in 1e, you have the race and class split - with class imposing restrictions. It didn't matter what race you were; a magic-user class determined what you could wear and wield. Your race just gave you special abilities or capped your max level in a class.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;695362To shift gears, does that mean that in 1e an Elf could wear armor and cast M-U spells too?
If the elf was multiclassed and the other class could wear armor then yes.
In the rules for dual classed (human) characters it is mentioned that the ability to cast spells while armor clad,such as an elven F/MU can do isn't permitted.
Quote from: K Peterson;695373What is cloth armor? Is that the same as clothing, or does it provide an AC bonus? Moldvay magic-users can't wear any armor.
From memory: in 1e, you have the race and class split - with class imposing restrictions. It didn't matter what race you were; a magic-user class determined what you could wear and wield. Your race just gave you special abilities or capped your max level in a class.
"Cloth armor" = bad habits when referring to robes and crap like that. I still think AC 10 with them.
Yeah, that was what I'd been using all along, but apparently that's not the case.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;695374If the elf was multiclassed and the other class could wear armor then yes.
In the rules for dual classed (human) characters it is mentioned that the ability to cast spells while armor clad,such as an elven F/MU can do isn't permitted.
Wow. Oh well, I guess we were interpreting the rules wrong.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;695382Wow. Oh well, I guess we were interpreting the rules wrong.
Once you realize how much they can do, the level limits make a bit more sense.
Yep. They can cast in armor. Its pretty powerful bonus, allowing them to be "middle of the line" able casters rather than "protect if you want sweet sweet spellcasting."
1e was a bit odd when it came to casting in armor.
Elf and Half-Elf multiclass M-Us can cast while armored (in any armor). Gnome multiclass Illusionists can only use leather armor. Dual-classed human M-Us or Illusionists can't wear any armor at all when casting.
Quote from: The Ent;6956501e was a bit odd when it came to casting in armor.
Elf and Half-Elf multiclass M-Us can cast while armored (in any armor). Gnome multiclass Illusionists can only use leather armor. Dual-classed human M-Us or Illusionists can't wear any armor at all when casting.
Yeah, and when we looked for consistency, we considered that the class rules for M-Us trumped anything from the racial area, just like we figured that the class rule for M-Us in Moldvay trumped Fighters. For some reason, the "race as class" uniqueness was missed by us.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;695672Yeah, and when we looked for consistency, we considered that the class rules for M-Us trumped anything from the racial area, just like we figured that the class rule for M-Us in Moldvay trumped Fighters. For some reason, the "race as class" uniqueness was missed by us.
Elves are so awesome because at level 10 you get to be a Superhero Necromancer. Who else besides Dr. Orpheus gets to be that! :)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;695673Elves are so awesome because at level 10 you get to be a Superhero Necromancer. Who else besides Dr. Orpheus gets to be that! :)
8th level, chief. At least if you're going by the Expert rules. 10th level elves are
Wizard/Lord.
Quote from: K Peterson;6956908th level, chief. At least if you're going by the Expert rules. 10th level elves are Wizard/Lord.
I forgot I switched them because nothing is as awesome as a Superhero Necromancer.
The 7th level Champion Sorcerer comes close but who are we kidding.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;695350Damn.
We always avoided the Elves mainly because they seemed weaker than the other classes --who'd want to wield a sword and wear cloth armor because they wanted to cast spells-- but now I can see how much more powerful they are.
The one to avoid if you're worried about weakness is the human MU! (Why play one when you can play an Elf instead, especially if you're allowed to "reskin" it as human?)
Quote from: Phillip;695827The one to avoid if you're worried about weakness is the human MU! (Why play one when you can play an Elf instead, especially if you're allowed to "reskin" it as human?)
Because by the time you get 2nd level spells, the elf has just barely reached level 2. For most of their career the elf is going to be about 1 spell level and 2 character levels behind the MU.
Quote from: SineNomine;695866Because by the time you get 2nd level spells, the elf has just barely reached level 2. For most of their career the elf is going to be about 1 spell level and 2 character levels behind the MU.
Not really. It levels out doesn't it (certainly is in 1e AD&D)
Because D&D level XP limits double as you level up the differences narrow quite quickly.
If the party has 12,000 xp on average then (in AD&D)
Human figther = 4th level
Human MU = 4th level
Elven F/MU = 3/3
But if the party has on average 20,000 xp then
Human F = 5th
Human MU = 4th
Elven F/MU = 4/4
Does it really matter? Who wants to play a fruity elf, anyway? Mechanically, elves destroy humans in all possible ways. So what. In all my years of playing D&D, I can't ever remember playing an elf character...I did have a bunch of human wizards, though.
Quote from: jibbajibba;695881Not really. It levels out doesn't it (certainly is in 1e AD&D)
Because D&D level XP limits double as you level up the differences narrow quite quickly.
Well, let's take a look at the exact B/X differences from levels 1-10. Wizards hit 6th level spells at level 11 and elves will never get that outside of Elves of Alfheim-type optional rules, so from level 11+ they're flatly better spellcasters. We'll use the MU XP ratings and see where the elf is at each leveling breakpoint.
When the MU just barely reaches level...
2: The elf is 1,500 xp behind.
3: The elf is 3,000 xp behind
4: The elf is 6,000 xp behind
5: The elf is 12,000 xp behind
6: The elf is 24,000 xp behind
7: The elf is 44,000 xp behind
8: The elf is 100,000 xp behind
9: The elf is 100,000 xp behind
10: The elf is 150,000 xp behind
By the time the elf hits 10th level, the wizard is 11th, and from there on out the wizard is simply better in all magical respects. XP does not actually double at all levels- in fact, it takes hardly more XP for an elf to get from 7th-8th level than it takes for them to get from 8th-9th, while for a MU it actually more than doubles. Still, it's true that the elf only spends most of his career one level behind the MU rather than 2.
At 600,000 xp, the elf gets to wear armor and swing a sword, but he's only got 8 more HP than the MU and doesn't have access to 6th level spells. I'd agree that the elf is mechanically better than the MU for any given level 1-10, but actually surviving to
reach that level is a non-trivial feat.
(N. B. For Mentzer Expert the gap gets strange- Mentzer MUs don't get 6th level spells until 12th level, and they also have fewer low-level spells per level at 10th level than the elf- but one more 5th level spell. Which the elf doesn't get at all until 10th level. So the Mentzer MU gets 5th level spells at level 9, and then no new spell level until level 12.... The differences between the Mentzer Elf and MU spell tables are interesting.)
Yes, I always saw elves as a trade-off of versatility, more than power.
I really don't understand this idea that elves need to be nerfed in B/X... and I do see it popping up once in a while on forums around the web.
So, more or less cross-posting myself from goblinoid games forum:
A comparison between elves and human classes (imagine that the fighter, elf and cleric have all the same armor -plate and shield?-, MU has none and Thief has leather). This comparison assumes all characters have average hit points and average ability scores.
At 0xp
HP:Elf 3.5 Ftr 4.5 Cl 3.5 Th 2.5 MU 2.5
AV0: E 19 Ftr 19 Cl 19 TH19 MU19
at 1.25K xp
HP:Elf 3.5 Ftr 4.5 Cl 3.5 Th 5 MU 2.5
AV: E 19 Ftr 19 Cl 19 TH19 MU19
at 1.5K xp
HP: Elf 3.5 Ftr 4.5 Cl 7 Th 5 MU 2.5
AV: E19 F19 Cl19 TH19 MU19
at 2K xp
HP: Elf 3.5 Ftr 9 Cl 7 Th 5 MU 2.5
AV: E19 F19 Cl 19 TH19 MU19
at 2.5K xp
HP: Elf 3.5 Ftr 9 Cl 7 Th 7.5 MU 5
AV: E19 F19 Cl 19 TH19 MU19
at 3K xp
HP: Elf 3.5 Ftr 9 Cl 10.5 Th 7.5 MU 5
AV: E19 F19 Cl19 TH 19 MU19
at 4K xp
HP: Elf 7 Ftr 13.5 Cl 10.5 Th 7.5 MU 5
AV: E19 Ftr18 Cl19 TH 19 MU19
at 5K xp
HP: Elf 7 Ftr 13.5 Cl 10.5 Th 10 MU 7.5
AV: E19 Ftr18 Cl19 TH 18 MU19
at 6K xp
HP: Elf 7 Ftr 13.5 Cl 14 Th 10 MU 7.5
AV: E19 Ftr18 Cl18 Th 18 MU19
at 8K xp
HP: Elf 10.5 Ftr 18 Cl 14 Th 10 MU 7.5
AV: E18 F17 Cl 18 Th 18 MU19
at 10K xp:
HP: Elf 10.5 Ftr 18 Cl 14 Th 12.5 MU 10
AV: E18 F17 Cl 18 Th 18 MU18
at 12K xp
HP: Elf 10.5 Ftr18 Cl 17.5 Th 12.5 MU 10
AV: E 18 F17 C18 Th 18 MU18
at 16K xp
HP: Elf 14 Ftr 22.5 Cl 17.5 Th 12.5 MU 10
AV: E 17 F16 C18 Th 18 MU18
at 20k xp
HP: Elf 14 Ftr 22.5 Cl 17.5 Th 14 MU 12.5
AV: E 17 F16 C18 Th 17 MU18
With average rolls, at the same xp total a Fighter is a better warrior than the Elf.
For what regards HP and AV0 the elf is practically tied with the Thief and often worse in HPs!
Personally I'd place the Cleric as second best fighter because of his slightly higher HPs even if he has less damage potential.
The MU is not that far behind the elf as you might think and after 1st level he is always capable of casting more spells than the elf at the same XP tally.
These are low-levels: 1st to 5th, you don't have to wait for high levels to see that the Elf is not so "broken" just because he can wear armor and while casting spells.
Also, an elf in front-line would have a very hard time casting spells, and if he is casting he is not fighting (plus yes, no shields or weapons in hands while casting).
An elf in the back lines casting spells is not fighting physically.
So in some way an elf always choses what he is from round to round: Fighter or Magic-user, he can't "be" both at the same time.
Multiclass characters tend to be about a level behind single class until the XP goes linear at high level. I've been in parties where most characters are multiclass because 4/4 has more options than 5th. The big slow down past 10th and level limits were academic as the odds of a 1st level character getting that high were low and the rate at which we leveled was slow enough that it was rare to play at those levels.
Quote from: Nicephorus;696559Multiclass characters tend to be about a level behind single class until the XP goes linear at high level. I've been in parties where most characters are multiclass because 4/4 has more options than 5th. The big slow down past 10th and level limits were academic as the odds of a 1st level character getting that high were low and the rate at which we leveled was slow enough that it was rare to play at those levels.
Yup
the point people are missing isn't that single classed figthers are tougher or that single classed wizards cast more spells with slightly superior effect. The point is the MU/Fght is really versitile. And in the OSR world where resource management is paramount the 5/5 F/W will be preferable to the 6F or the 6 W nearly all the time because he can cast all his spells and then take up a position in the front rank, or he can take position in the front rank and when HPs look shakey can retreat back to spell caster mode.
and before people say but its not just about combat no of course its not. But the PC with spells who can try any the player can think of will be more flexible than the PC without spells who can try anything the player can think of.
The point you two seem to be missing is that the discussion above was about B/X D&D, and there is no multi-classing in B/X.
Quote from: jibbajibba;696569But the PC with spells who can try any the player can think of will be more flexible than the PC without spells who can try anything the player can think of.
One of the cool things about spellcasters is that they could be nearly a different character the next day just by spell selection, making them generally better outside of combat as well. (For arcane casters, this of course depends on how many spells they know, which can be rough if the DM is a tight ass about it.)
The armor difference is enough at low to mid levels that an elf will get hit about half as much as an MU from weapons in combat, and no more for other sources of damage. Once the MU gets really good defensive spells and magic items that give big AC bonuses, this particular advantage disappears. When facing monsters with +0 to +3 to hit bonuses the difference between AC 10 and AC 5 is pretty big.
Quote from: Bobloblah;696570The point you two seem to be missing is that the discussion above was about B/X D&D, and there is no multi-classing in B/X.
True, but the Basic elf is essentially a multiclass F/MU with roughly the same slowed XP progression, similarly middle ground HP, with the weapons and armor of a fighter but the spells of an MU, with extra race abilities and nigh invulnerability to aging effects.
This whole thread reeks of "modern gaming"...
Quote from: thedungeondelver;695347Elves can cast while wearing armor.
Yep. They are the original figher/magic-users. It's why I always played one (even with the terrible leveling chart).
Quote from: SineNomine;695866Because by the time you get 2nd level spells, the elf has just barely reached level 2. For most of their career the elf is going to be about 1 spell level and 2 character levels behind the MU.
In B/X? Don't have the books at hand, but I don't think so. In AD&D, the division of XP keeps a F/MU about a level behind, but as I recall the B/X progression is more generous (and I think the HP as well). That might be less of a big deal at low levels, though. Still, we're talking just a little longer to attain a level, and the small shortage in spells comes up pretty late in a game capped at (IIRC) 14th.
To me, it looks as if the tradeoff (even before considering other features such as infravision and immunities) is heavily in the Elf's favor -- if one is inclined to think that way, as in the discounting of the Thief that raised the issue. In practice, it hasn't put off many players IME from playing MUs.
Quote from: Phillip;696584In B/X? Don't have the books at hand, but I don't think so. In AD&D, the division of XP keeps a F/MU about a level behind, but as I recall the B/X progression is more generous (and I think the HP as well). That might be less of a big deal at low levels, though. Still, we're talking just a little longer to attain a level, and the small shortage in spells comes up pretty late in a game capped at (IIRC) 14th.
To me, it looks as if the tradeoff (even before considering other features such as infravision and immunities) is heavily in the Elf's favor -- if one is inclined to think that way, as in the discounting of the Thief that raised the issue. In practice, it hasn't put off many players IME from playing MUs.
The exact breakdown is in post #21, but as it turns out, the elf just spends most of their time 1 level behind the MU- which is still significant in terms of spell access, especially at the low levels where a lot of B/X games spend their time. Assuming a spherical cow and a steady rate of XP accumulation, the MU is going to be throwing fireballs at 20K xp, while the elf needs 32K before he gets to do that- more than half again all the XP they've earned that campaign so far. Pound for pound the elf's options are superior, but surviving long enough to put on that weight is a good trick- because nobody expects the MU to go stand in front.