The interjection of modern political propaganda into historical settings isn't just bad politics, it's also neglecting historical authenticity.
#dnd       #ttrpg   #osr  #Cthulhu #modiphius

Buy Lex Arcana - vote with your wallet!

That's a name I hadn't heard in a while.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 09, 2023, 11:23:58 PM
The interjection of modern political propaganda into historical settings isn't just bad politics, it's also neglecting historical authenticity.
#dnd       #ttrpg   #osr  #Cthulhu #modiphius

https://youtu.be/Hmg9tDoqtac

Sorry, it took me a while to get around to reading this. I haven't read the Modiphius book, so I have no comments on that. But this is a case where I mostly agree with Pundit's position. A historical sourcebook should communicate historical practices and beliefs. As he puts it,

Quote from: RPGPunditTheir argument is: there were people back then who were non-binary, there were people then who were trans, there were people there who were whatever other gender categories you want to talk about. There were queer people in the Roman Empire.

But here's the thing... It's certainly true that throughout human history and throughout all kinds of different cultures, there have been all kinds of different conceptions of gender. And in a lot of cultures, that means that first of all - although there are certain gender roles that have been fairly immutable throughout all of human history in all different human cultures - there are also a lot of areas which are malleable.

And so there are some places where certain things that maybe in our society (up until recently) were thought of as masculine traits, in another society, some of those might be seen as feminine. And some things that we think of as feminine traits or behaviors or activities might have been seen as masculine traits or behaviors or activities.

So, for example, in the Roman Empire, women were the ones who managed family money. That was seen as a woman's job. Back in the better part of the 20th century, it was more common for that to be seen as the husband's job, to manage the money. That's not a universal trait, that's a cultural trait.

Beyond that, there's also many cultures who had the conception of what historians would have tended to call a third gender. There are many cultures that have males, females, and something intermediate. But the conception of that third intermediate has always had cultural connotations that are unique from one culture to another.

This is the problem. The current collection of genders and sexualities... this is also sexualities. The definition of being gay in our culture is not the same as it would have been in other cultures. There are cultural contexts to this.

So, for example, in the Roman Empire, for someone to be gay in that passive role was different from someone in the active role. For the pagan period of the Roman Empire, at least, those were seen as two very different things with two very different social connotations. So that essentially, somebody who engaged in active homosexuality - right, they were the pitcher, not the catcher - was not really seen as gay at all. Whereas someone who was the receptive partner in a male homosexual activity - that was seen... the word wouldn't have been "gay", but it has (similar) connotations to it. And it was often used as social mockery in that culture, because it was seen as feminizing in certain ways.

That's very different from the general concept of homosexuality in modern Western culture before the Sexual Revolution, where it didn't matter which of the two parts you played, that would still label you as a homosexual. So that was a difference.

And then of course there were many cultures where there were contexts in which men would dress as women and some cultures where women would dress as men. And then they would no longer be seen absolutely as a woman or a man. Usually they wouldn't be seen as the gender they were dressing as (as opposed to their biological sex), but they would rather be seen as a third category.

For example, in India, there was quite a lot of that sort of thing throughout different historical periods. That's why in Arrows of Indra, there are the "kliba" who are a third gender group. And those are included in my game, because that's historical.

What wouldn't be historical is to say "There's an LGBTQ+ spectrum in the Barada Kingdom period of mythical India." That would not make sense. They're pretending that this idea of naming your pronouns is something that has existed for all of human history, and isn't something that was invented in 2014 in Tumblr, which is really the source of all of the wild directions in which a lot of the current discussions on sex and gender have spawned. Which is a problem because Tumblr has been a source of all kinds of perverse things that... It's not really where we should be taking our mark from.

And again, this is not to criticize people who are gay or even people who are trans or have gender dysphoria... I'm not saying that that's not real or ... that it should in some way not be allowed. What I am saying is that the categories that we use are entirely arbitrary and unique to our society.

I'd argue that categories are not arbitrary. Societies do differ, but I'm not a moral relativist, so I do think that some social rules are better than others - like how democracy and human rights are positive developments. But Pundit might well agree with that - I don't want to read too much into a single impromptu word.

Modiphartius continues to be drooling SJWs cockgobbling at the blue hair agenda?

How shocking.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2023, 11:14:26 AM
Buy Lex Arcana - vote with your wallet!

I checked out the website. Very pretty, looks engaging, something I'd check out seriously if I had a group who wanted faux-historical fantasy Rome RPGing.

And yes, voting with our wallets is ALWAYS the best move. In the USA, it's the only vote that actually counts!

Quote from: jhkim on July 16, 2023, 02:08:56 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 09, 2023, 11:23:58 PM
Back in the better part of the 20th century, it was more common for that to be seen as the husband's job, to manage the money.

I guess that's an American thing? In the Irish & Celtic cultures I'm familiar with, the woman usually controls or controlled the money. Not sure about England, it may be more split along class lines with female control lower class, male control upper class. I remember reading that in the US the backlash against Prohibition contributed to a much more Patriarchal culture. When I got married in Tennessee the locals were shocked that my mother would speak for my family at the ceremony.

I agree 100% that imposing 21st century LGBTQ culture on other historical time periods is not accurate & I find it annoying. If it's a fantasy game, well I don't find eg Blue Rose annoying - I feel it would be hypocritical to enjoy Conanesque fantasy with gender norms out of 1930s Texas and deny the blue-hairs their fun too. But I think it's important to recognise that if I play S&S, I'm not playing 'historical fantasy', I'm playing something out of the 1930s-1970s. If eg Chaosium or Modiphius are trying to make out that the 1920s were 'really' just like today, they're lying, and contemptible.

What annoys me is the forced ham-fisted spoon-feeding. If people want to use pronouns in their game that's fine. You do you, it's none of my business and beyond my interest.
But I don't need some oily dweeb telling me what I need to include or exclude in my fantasy games. Or be subjected to anyone's
moral guidance stick (on any side of the coin). I'm an adult so they can F Off!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 16, 2023, 11:02:43 AM
some oily dweeb telling me what I need to include or exclude in my fantasy games

Slightly off-topic: I've noticed that this seems to be basically an Anglosphere-only thing. One way to avoid it is to buy from non-Anglo companies like Free League (Swedish), and likewise I've been getting into Heavy Gear from Dream Pod 9 (Quebecois French-Canadian). Not seen any Wokeness from either - and no MAGA too, of course.

(Heavy Gear does have sci-fi church-endorsed lesbian marriage, which may have been Woke in 1994 I guess).

Quote from: S'mon on July 16, 2023, 11:10:26 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 16, 2023, 11:02:43 AM
some oily dweeb telling me what I need to include or exclude in my fantasy games

Slightly off-topic: I've noticed that this seems to be basically an Anglosphere-only thing. One way to avoid it is to buy from non-Anglo companies like Free League (Swedish), and likewise I've been getting into Heavy Gear from Dream Pod 9 (Quebecois French-Canadian). Not seen any Wokeness from either - and no MAGA too, of course.

Yeah, man. I think that's the best strategy and buying off the smaller guys as well. Funny, you don't really see this in other hobbies, to the same extent at least, like board games. I know it's a different dynamic (from an RPG) but you are still interacting with people at a table all and coming together for a gaming experience.

And I don't see any obligatory little 'text box' telling you to sod off, you're not wanted! If you believe X or Y politics.

Quote from: S'mon on July 16, 2023, 11:10:26 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 16, 2023, 11:02:43 AM
some oily dweeb telling me what I need to include or exclude in my fantasy games

Slightly off-topic: I've noticed that this seems to be basically an Anglosphere-only thing. One way to avoid it is to buy from non-Anglo companies like Free League (Swedish), and likewise I've been getting into Heavy Gear from Dream Pod 9 (Quebecois French-Canadian). Not seen any Wokeness from either - and no MAGA too, of course.

(Heavy Gear does have sci-fi church-endorsed lesbian marriage, which may have been Woke in 1994 I guess).

As I remember it, Heavy Gear was pretty reasonable in it's portrayal of such things. An occasional mention in a character's bio. Nothing like the "THE FIRST LESBIAN MARRIAGE IN SCI FI BUY OUR BOOK WE ARE PROGRESSIVE!" signalling we get nowadays.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 16, 2023, 05:07:04 PM
As I remember it, Heavy Gear was pretty reasonable in it's portrayal of such things. An occasional mention in a character's bio. Nothing like the "THE FIRST LESBIAN MARRIAGE IN SCI FI BUY OUR BOOK WE ARE PROGRESSIVE!" signalling we get nowadays.

Yes you remember right. And lesbian Grand Marshall Victoria Edden-Smythe, the fairly aggressive war leader of the CNSC, is a strong member in good standing of the conservative and nationalist Sorrento Revisionist Church. She actually converted from Swanscombe Jerusalemism, which is matriarchal post-Catholicism.

Yeah but, who's the secret guest for the next show?

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 16, 2023, 07:51:51 PM
Yeah but, who's the secret guest for the next show?

Scott Garibay.

I tried my best but Garibay never got back to me. He was probably busy eating something in his car.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 18, 2023, 01:01:29 AM
I tried my best but Garibay never got back to me. He was probably busy eating something in his car.

Ha ha... He was also probably too busy fapping over his 5e books that's why he looks so sweaty all the time.