For supposedly smart people some of you are really short sighted when it comes to this.

First, given @AsenRG's examples, just renaming 'Doom' to 'Notice' and using little glass eye beads as counters would solve the thematic/perspective discrepancy. But if you really want to get rid of Doom/Momentum entirely, have everything that would normally add Doom raise the chance of a Complication on the next roll by one instead.

Quote from: K Peterson;940736That's one thing I've wondered about with 2D20: would it be an effective strategy for the players to starve the GM of Doom/Dark Synergy Points, basically emasculating any NPCs/monsters that they face? What would happen if they cooperated? Would the opposition be a pushover for the characters throughout an adventure, because the antagonists would rarely be able to leverage any special abilities? Or would it be a fail-fest across the board for the characters and the opposition, because the level of competence for everyone would be in the shitter?

Can't GMs get Points from NPC actions?

Regardless, I'm more concerned with the opposite, where it doesn't matter how many Points the GM has if the players are constantly operating at full throttle.

Quote from: AsenRG;940746Sommerjon writes single sentences (or used to, I stopped reading months ago). I recently reminded Rgrove that Heamingway wrote a whole short story in a single sentence, too.
That doesn't mean Sommerjon is anywhere near Heamingway.

If only more people realized that two things can be similar in one respect without being identical in all of them.

Quote from: AsenRG;940746Also, there was no snark.

What? WHYYY?

#NeedsMoreCowbell

Quote from: estar;940221Using a wargame, which a tabletop RPG is, ......

I give you mad props for actually admitting that you think a tabletop RPG is a wargame, your wrong, but at least your not hiding behind immersion or some other veneer of BS.

Quote from: Omega;940900You really love being wrong dont you?

I'm rubber your glue...

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940901Can't GMs get Points from NPC actions?

Not that I've seen. They're generated as a result of PC action: the equivalent of fumbling; 'buffing' themselves by purchasing more d20; avoiding a die roll with the goal of avoiding a fumble. The points are the fuel the GM uses to power his NPCs: activate their special abilities; complicate a situation; interrupt PCs.

But I'm going by what I've read of Mutant Chronicles; I've not seen the playtest rules for Conan yet. I'd like to know the answer too.

QuoteRegardless, I'm more concerned with the opposite, where it doesn't matter how many Points the GM has if the players are constantly operating at full throttle.

From my experience, the GM can really unleash some hell with a large quantity of Doom/DSP - especially in what would be considered 'boss fights'.

Quote from: Sommerjon;940903I'm rubber your glue...

"you're"

Quote from: Skarg;940886Narrative and story game apply, but the abstract fate/momentum/shared-success/doom/"dark synergy" system isn't necessarily just narrative per se - is there already a conventional term for that other than OOC/metagame/GMnerf?

I think "a momentum system" is the best term, since it helps you track the momentum of the fight.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940901If only more people realized that two things can be similar in one respect without being identical in all of them.

That's some crazy talk:)! Oranges are round, and footballs are as well, so you can put footballs in a blender and drink the juice!
Right:D?
(Luckily, nobody went to that level of logic fail in this thread, but I find the comparison funny).

QuoteWhat? WHYYY?

#NeedsMoreCowbell

Because I was feeling snarky for unrelated reasons and didn't want to go there for fear of accidentally overdoing it;)!

Quote from: Sommerjon;940902I give you mad props for actually admitting that you think a tabletop RPG is a wargame, your wrong, but at least your not hiding behind immersion or some other veneer of BS.

It not fucking hard.

A roleplaying game is a package of tools used to help a referee run a tabletop rpg campaign. The point is not to play a game but to run a campaign where players interact a setting as a character with their actions adjudicated by a human referee.

My point relates to the fact it is common to use a WARGAME to RESOLVE COMBAT as part of the adjudication process. Other types of games are often designed and packaged in to handle other aspects of a RPG campaign. For example Traveller Interstellar trader. Sometime a single set of mechanics is used as the
foundation for all the mini-games that go into the RPG. Other time very different system are used.

What kind of interaction (immersive, silly, serious, focus on combat, etc) is a matter of TASTE. The same with what kinds of character, setting, and how much detail the referee uses adjudicate actions. There are literally infinite combinations which is why there are dozens of useful RPGs and more being made all the time.

Where storygamers delude themselves is that a wargame is usable as a means of collaborative storytelling. The gyrations that they put themselves through cause them to be as fucking obsessed with rules as a  hardcore wargamer opening up his book to rule 3.12.3.4.  "Morale modifiers resulting from a Lizard man vigorously displaying his blue penis"

Quote from: estar;940931"Morale modifiers resulting from a Lizard man vigorously displaying his blue penis"

slowly backing away from the thread....

The GM can generate Doom from Momentum of NPCs, but if that how he wants bank it then we have the case where the GM rolls a massively awesome hit, which turns out to be a minor hit instead because the GM needs the Doom if he wants Thoth Amon to actually be able to cast spells when the PCs fight him later.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940901Regardless, I'm more concerned with the opposite, where it doesn't matter how many Points the GM has if the players are constantly operating at full throttle.

Now we're back to something I think both you and Skywalker were getting at.

For a game that limits the GM's power ostensibly because experienced GMs shouldn't be necessary, the balancing act of Doom works best with an experienced GM.  If the players are going Full Throttle every roll, and the GM is playing adversarially, someone's getting curbstomped.  Spend a couple Doom here, wandering encounters hear and start coming in, spend a few Doom there, and Mobs turn to normals, normals become elites.

For all the weird limitations of what the GM can do and how he needs Doom to do it, When he spends the Doom and What he spends it on are still Fiat.  So they haven't really helped the n00bster much and they still haven't prevented the DickGM, they've just made a system that handcuffs an experienced GM who knows what they're doing unless they throw out the mechanical limitations and redesign the system.

You find out pretty quick it's not as much about helping the N00bs as it is subscribing to the design ideology of the Cortex Prophet.

Quote from: CRKrueger;940939Now we're back to something I think both you and Skywalker were getting at.

That moment that you walk into a thread you have not been in before and find someone referring to you

FWIW I think you are confusing two things. Placing limitation on the GM isn't necessarily the same as creating a competition with between the GM and players. The later necessarily includes the former, as without limitation there is no basis for competition. The former, in the likes of PBtA RPGs, is done well to help newbie GMs as unfettered discretion can be esoteric and intimidating and sometimes what appear to be hard rules can be more effective than advice and guidelines.

Also FWIW I have an issue with the later, as I find direct competition creates an expectation that undermines what is best in RPGs, but I am OK with the former if its done to good effect.

Quote from: Skywalker;940943That moment that you walk into a thread you have not been in before and find someone referring to you

FWIW I think you are confusing two things. Placing limitation on the GM isn't necessarily the same as creating a competition with between the GM and players. The later necessarily includes the former, as without limitation there is no basis for competition. The former, in the likes of PBtA RPGs, is done well to help newbie GMs as unfettered discretion can be esoteric and intimidating and sometimes what appear to be hard rules can be more effective than advice and guidelines.

Also FWIW I have an issue with the later, as I find direct competition creates an expectation that undermines what is best in RPGs, but I am OK with the former if its done to good effect.

Did I say the adversarial nature stemmed strictly from the limitations on the GM's Doom expenditure?  I don't think I did.  The adversarial nature mainly comes from the back and forth nature of the Doom itself, and the player's minigame of "Feed or Starve" and the GMs minigame of "Howard or Lovecraft"?

As far as limiting GM's power so new GM's can learn...well...they'll learn how to be crippled GMs at any rate, but that's another thread.

Where I guess I mixed you up is with the "despite the training wheels, the system still requires experienced judgement" part, which I know Anon mentioned way back when, and I thought you might have as well.  If not, oh well.

All good. I kind of jumped on here at the end. The only thing I will add is that I don't see anything in Momentum that acts as a learning tool for new GMs. It's purely to create tension through a sense of competition, and worse yet a false competition as there is not enough limitation on the GM for that. It remains my biggest issue with the system but I don't think it's difficult to excise that issue with a few minor mods.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;940917"you're"

I normally hate #GrammarNazis, but damn.

Quote from: estar;940931My point relates to the fact it is common to use a WARGAME to RESOLVE COMBAT as part of the adjudication process.

...

You do realize that RPGs resolve more than 'combat', right?

Quote from: CRKrueger;940939You find out pretty quick it's not as much about helping the N00bs as it is subscribing to the design ideology of the Cortex Prophet.

Strangely the Doom pool in Marvel Heroic Roleplaying doesn't have the same problems, or at least to the same extent. And given the designs I've seen, I kinda wish Modiphius took more from Cortex+. I may not agree with #CamBanks politically, but damn if he isn't some kind of weird game design savant.

Then again, MHR still suffers from the 'single best tactic' issue many RPGs do.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940997Then again, MHR still suffers from the 'single best tactic' issue many RPGs do.

Does it ever but I risk pulling the thread off topic.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940997Strangely the Doom pool in Marvel Heroic Roleplaying doesn't have the same problems, or at least to the same extent.

From my playtesting of it, which was less than 2d20, I agree.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940997I may not agree with #CamBanks politically, but damn if he isn't some kind of weird game design savant.

Not the game I'd sign up for really, but it damn well does what it says it does, better than any other similar game I've seen.