Quote from: CleanCutRogueI have the same problem, Ultimate Nullifier.  I've run quite a few Supers games (several systems, but memorably Marvel Super Heroes Advanced, Champions, Villains & Vigilantes, DC) in my past.  But they never become a serious campaign.  Despite the fact that I try, my players always end up wanting to battle it out in a big city and cause tons of collateral damage... yelling taglines and such.  Deep role-playing just doesn't happen.  Maybe my fault... dunno.  But it seems to be the way my players prefer to play supers so I just go with the flow and have fun with it.  I'm curious to know if yours turns out different.

I do have battles over the city sometimes. I also have a variety of other things...let me see...this will be long....actually tell you what, give me sometime I'll edit this IRC file and post it somewhere where its readable.

Cause just copying and pasting would make it hard to read and such.

And really if your players want big battles, well, *shrugs* not a lot you can do, but I pretty much treat it like a soap opera, where they happen to have powers because that's what I got from Spider-Man and decades and decades of better comic book reading.

Not much. At least not the spandex-clad genre. But with a different theme, it's fine by me. People often say D&D is actually a game of super-heroes, for example

Here is the last session of my game taken from IRC logs (I edited it slightly to be more readable, and fix typoes we caught in play.)


http://www.silverlionstudios.greyearth.com/HS/APInterlude.txt

It is txt. So it may require scrolling.

Just to show you that for me,and my style of superhero gaming. No rules bits at all (if you want that read Lullaby For Insomniac on my website, but I'm showing how I run games, not how my rules work..)

Quote from: SilverlionWell do you? and do you play superhero RPG's?

I've never been a huge fan of the supers genre myself.  I never really dug comics, so that is probably not suprising.  I have had great fun, however, playing supers games with a comedy element, ala "The Specials" and "Mystery Men".

It is just plain fun playing a Canadian superhero (with ice powers, natch) who is stuck in Texas and whose powers don't work when it is warmer than 75 F.  And who has a team mate who is probably the fourth or fifth fastest man on Earth...

I think that part of the appeal, at least for me, to these sort of absurd games is that it pokes holes in some of the standard assumptions of the genre, like extraordinary people doing extraordinary things.  I am a humanist, so I have always had a deep suspicion of the idea of "supers" in the first place.  Real heroics come from ordinary people doing extraordinary things, often without realizing that they have done something extraordinary.

What can I say...I've read "Watchmen" one too many times!;)

The Good Assyrian

QuoteI disagree, fundamentally with that theory--I think that the problems and plot potential are just as significant even within the superhero genre--it hasn't always been written that way (the Comic's Code Authority hurt some, but also forced creativity on others) but the idea that its somehow less potential for storytelling is a flaw in the end user perception, on in the genre tropes.

Well, I won't argue about it not having to be that way--a creative person can take any formula and turn it into something interesting. I'm referring more to the expectations created by the genre as it exists in its most popular forms--garishly clad heroes solving problems by beating up bad guys. As all grown ups know, this isnt exactly a long-term solution to any complex problem, and the idea of supers "solving" homelessness or drug addiction is laughable. The tradition (yes, marred by the Comics Code) is forcibly simple. For that reason, most players will probably want to play things that way absent some serious guidance from the GM or an overt genre-blend that changes expectations.

What I am not arguing is that it always has to be that way for superpowered stories. I think there is some room for an interaction between superpowers and more complex plots or issues, but to do so makes it not so much like a traditional superhero story (and therefore will be dissatisfying to some, who want the simplicity). The genre tropes definitely work toward simplicity now; I hope it will continue to grow.

For example, I imagine a mood similar to Dark Knight Returns would be a lot of fun to play in, and still be full of insoluble problems, moral ambiguity, and danger for the players (even more fun: the players may not clearly be good or bad themselves). And that would clearly be within the superhero tradition, but also departing from that tradition in several significant ways--lethality, moral darkness, and a focus on realistic consequences to super-actions.

Quote from: willpaxWhat I am not arguing is that it always has to be that way for superpowered stories. I think there is some room for an interaction between superpowers and more complex plots or issues, but to do so makes it not so much like a traditional superhero story (and therefore will be dissatisfying to some, who want the simplicity). The genre tropes definitely work toward simplicity now; I hope it will continue to grow.

And I of course think such stories are told all the time within the context. God Loves, Man Kills (Religion as support for intolerance and bigotry), Confessions (Astro City, a coming of age story for a sidekick/protege).

QuoteFor example, I imagine a mood similar to Dark Knight Returns would be a lot of fun to play in, and still be full of insoluble problems, moral ambiguity, and danger for the players (even more fun: the players may not clearly be good or bad themselves). And that would clearly be within the superhero tradition, but also departing from that tradition in several significant ways--lethality, moral darkness, and a focus on realistic consequences to super-actions.

See even you can find an example but there are MANY more. Many examples. Sure comics can and have gotten silly and staid at some points, but frex Squadron Supreme (the original 12 issue ltd series)  while basically a "JLA" story told a pretty significant story that a lot of people overlook about "What happens when you do have power, and TRY and force change, for the better.."

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI am a humanist, so I have always had a deep suspicion of the idea of "supers" in the first place. Real heroics come from ordinary people doing extraordinary things, often without realizing that they have done something extraordinary.

This strike's me as completely off the mark. Heroes are often given accolades, while they may be firemen just doing their job, honestly risking their lives, but ending up performing heroic tasks in the eyes of others and modesty hides the fact from themselves, it doesn't hide it from others. And superheroes (Marvel's breed particularly) were cut from the same mold at some point. Sure they have powers, but they still are people doing the best they can, with human flaws, failures, etc. Powers merely ADD another layer of potential problems ON top--they don't make them all vanish (in good superhero stories at least.)

I'm reminded of the Buffy TV show--someone once quipped it was a horror show, to which someone else was surprised seeing the humor, action, and  responding no its not! Then the first person pointed out it wasn't the MONSTERS that made it horror, but the everyday life--the "hell of high school" --the horror of its often absurd, yet not too off the mark of self seving cliques, administrators, teachers, etc.  

Sometimes we get caught up in looking at the trappings of something that we forget that underneath that there are other things.

Sure some superhero comics (more than I care for) revel in their own absurd colorful decay. But there are more that dig back to merely human stories, just with a different way of telling them.

Anyway I am sorry if that came off as a lecture its not supposed to *LOL* just a different opinion.

I do recommend looking at the /best/ out there (Top Ten, Planetary, Astro City, And Some eras of Spider-man, X-men etc. )

Quote from: SilverlionThis strike's me as completely off the mark.

I am willing to concede that this is a possibility... *LOL*

It was just an expression of my knee-jerk reaction to bad supers gaming I have seen in my time.  The endless number of Champions games in which you are defined by your power ("Hi, I'm the Brick!), and everyone seems to sit around in the Justice Hall until the bank is robbed, your secret identity only existing to provide more points to spend on kewl powerz.

Quote from: SilverlionHeroes are often given accolades, while they may be firemen just doing their job, honestly risking their lives, but ending up performing heroic tasks in the eyes of others and modesty hides the fact from themselves, it doesn't hide it from others. And superheroes (Marvel's breed particularly) were cut from the same mold at some point. Sure they have powers, but they still are people doing the best they can, with human flaws, failures, etc. Powers merely ADD another layer of potential problems ON top--they don't make them all vanish (in good superhero stories at least.)

I think that is why I prefer the "comedic" style of supers games.  The human failings of the heroes take the forefront and are the primary foils for the story.  I can see how a good "serious" supers game could be done if human relationships and consequences of one's actions was a primary focus.

Quote from: SilverlionAnyway I am sorry if that came off as a lecture its not supposed to *LOL* just a different opinion.

No problem!  It was not taken that way.  You reminded me that a genre is not defined by my bad gaming experiences...

Quote from: SilverlionI do recommend looking at the /best/ out there (Top Ten, Planetary, Astro City, And Some eras of Spider-man, X-men etc. )

As I mentioned earlier, my exposure to most comics is very limited, so I appreciate the recommendations!  Most of what I've read has been classic graphic novels ('Watchmen", "Kingdom Come", etc), and I really dig the Paul Dini/Alex Ross DC stuff.  I've never read many of the classics, like X-men, Spiderman, etc.  

I know, deprived childhood...

I love super RPG's. I have been a GM and player of Champions since 1982. I was a little turned off by the recent edition, then that was revised into the monster rulebook. I've seen phonebooks smaller than that. I am now getting into Mutants and Masterminds. If I can get a game together I would be happy. I found one guy in my area interested, so I've got a start.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianAs I mentioned earlier, my exposure to most comics is very limited, so I appreciate the recommendations!  Most of what I've read has been classic graphic novels ('Watchmen", "Kingdom Come", etc), and I really dig the Paul Dini/Alex Ross DC stuff.  I've never read many of the classics, like X-men, Spiderman, etc.  

I know, deprived childhood...

Hey those aren't bad reads (when I was first exposed to Watchmen I thought it brilliant, now days I look at just how much dislike of the genre is in that book it bothers me and I find it less brilliant. )

 Kingdom Come on the other hand is a definatly blow you a way if your going to be blown away by this stuff ever kind of work.

Another and kind of 'small few know about' bits is Brereton/Hudnall's  Psycho (Brereton is known for Nocturnal's and its pretty spiffy comic itiself.) But Psycho is well done positing a world where a drug that gives superpowers was developed over the nuclear bomb, and espionage is very different. Mostly it revolves around a spy, normal guy, whose manipulated, betrayed, and forced to take the drug--psycho comes from S.C.O (or secret costumed operative iirc) some are F.c.o (full costume operative) buts a fun descent into madness bookshelf set three issues. But its not "full" on comic book supers standard. Still great read.

My general recommendations

Top Ten (but not SMAX)- Police Precint in a world full of "Science Heroes" dealing with their cases, and situations. From absurd, to very very grim.


Planetary (any pretty much)

Astro City (Confessions Trade, and Tarnished Angel Trade most notably--that's the Confessor Story arc and Steeljack--a supervillain on parole trying to be straight arc. The new "Dark Age" is just that for Astro City. But fun read. Astro City has a lot more "classic comics" ideas, but tells stories about PEOPLE first, and then lets the tropes fall in.

Supreme: Story of the Year (very silly self referential but I enjoyed it--basically dealing with Superman as self aware of retcon's and his own crazy history, with flash backs to 'Golden' and "Silver' Age versions of art/style)  but it is a bit more humerous without being a comic story just a revel in comic book madness--so probably not your thing.


X-men God Loves, Man Kills (maybe, it may be dated a bit.) but I much prefer Reverend Stryker and his Crusade to the "movie" (X-men 2) version. (Much much nastier villain without special "powers")

Jut to re-clarify: I think the tradition of superheroes conditions most players and readers to expect the simple: physical conflict, binary moral oppositions (with perhaps a level of moral ambiguity in one note, such as with Magneto), and a lack of attention to pragmatic consequences of actions. I am not arguing that one must have those to have a superhero story--just that most people expect that, and it will influence how many people play a superhero RPG.

Did that help?

For a completely different take on the superhero genre (and it would be a very cool setting for a one-off game), buy/read the first Global Frequency trade

In fact there's a very interesting narrativist RPG that could be written for this setting.  I might stick up some ideas later today

Thanks again for the reading recommendations, Silverlion.  I'll check some of it out.  Continuing education...

Quote from: SilverlionWell do you? and do you play superhero RPG's?

Hard to answer in a way.

Do I like how comics protray Superheroes? Not really. I love individual examples, but the issues of changing writers and never-ending stories results in my only 'liking' a small selection of the total. That small selection however I really really like.

I'm currently playing a rebooted Marvel based game using HERO system.