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We're going to be featuring a Victorian-era street-level supers game as our backup game for when people can't make it. Because it was on the shelf, and is already a supers system, we will be using 1st edition Mutants and Masterminds. Our GM has played it before (though not run it) and thought it worked reasonably well. We are familiar with D20 games as a group, and are willing to give it a go; if it doesn't work so well, we'll look for an alternative system to continue with the premise. We will only be using this book and have no supplements, nor intention to get them.

So what's the skinny? Where can I find the errata (I found an official-looking site, which gave 404 errors on the errata page (http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/gimmicks_gadgets/mutants-masterm-1/errata/cat_mutants_masterminds.php#000087) or is this (http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/errata/cat_mutants_masterminds.php#000087) the correct one?). How material is it all?

There's an awful lot of freedom in building a character. Are there any traps (often are with D20 games) we should be aware of? Any broken/exploitable things to be aware of?

Are there any tips or tricks to keeping things moving fast?

On a quick skim, we couldn't work out how to gauge the right Power Level for our game; it's supposed to be more grounded and so for the moment we said PL8; is that appropriate? Is there a table somewhere giving a guide to how to choose the right PL for the game?

The central premise is that we're working for a secret government ministry charged with defending the Crown and the Realm against the occult and other weirdness (like The Laundry, apparently). While it is headquartered in London, we'll be stationed somewhere else (possibly an island in the Irish Sea) and have a brief to rove across the Empire as required. There will be a grand tour of Europe at some point.

We haven't tried to make characters yet, so far the concepts we have (subject to change between now and making them next week):

• A woman who fell into (something she perceived as) Hell, got back out and spent a long time researching demonology and such. Then she managed to bind an angel into her body and use its powers, though she has to perform occult rituals on a regular basis to keep it locked down.
• A direct descendant of King Arthur whose bloodline gives him minion-controlling/leadership powers (amongst other things to be developed) and wields Excalibur. I suspect he'll be a face character.
• A guy who's been given an alchemical equivalent of Captain America's super-soldier serum (actually a failed experiment, it was supposed to perfect his morality); enhanced strength, toughness and regeneration, along with a side of other alchemical potions he can take for temporary effects (like fire resistance or nightvision).

There will be a fourth character, no idea what yet, the player is away. Given the nature of the game, there will never be more than three PCs, and we have license to swap them out for a different one if we like.

Please tell.

I seem to remember that Speedster powers were extremely powerful in 1e, to the point of brokenness.

Quote from: The Ent;724138I seem to remember that Speedster powers were extremely powerful in 1e, to the point of brokenness.

Good to know.

Is that at any level (I had considered a rank or two of it, if I had points to spare) or just the higher ones? If it's just plain broken, I'll avoid (it's marginal to my concept anyway).

Quote from: Kiero;724139Good to know.

Is that at any level (I had considered a rank or two of it, if I had points to spare) or just the higher ones? If it's just plain broken, I'll avoid (it's marginal to my concept anyway).

I don't have the book with me - but do look at it a bit.

It's been a long while since I looked at my 1e book mind.

Quote from: Kiero;724136

• A guy who's been given an alchemical equivalent of Captain America's super-soldier serum (actually a failed experiment, it was supposed to perfect his morality); enhanced strength, toughness and regeneration, along with a side of other alchemical potions he can take for temporary effects (like fire resistance or nightvision).

This is slightly off topic Kiero, but this character description, especially the "it was supposed to perfect his morality" bit just SCREAMS Strange Case of Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde ... it could be awesome if the failure of the experiment also led to some kind of splitting off of his "darker" side, and perhaps this came into play when his powers are activated, through corruption or degeneration or something. It's implied in the book that in Hyde form, the character has enhanced strength, toughness, youth, etc.

Just a thought.

I seem to recall some kind of balancing issue with sidekicks, but it's been years, so I'm not sure. I recommend getting your hands on 2e if you can, its balance isn't flawless but it's a very well-put-together little system-- and my brother's go-to system for nearly anything.

Quote from: LibraryLass;724146I seem to recall some kind of balancing issue with sidekicks, but it's been years, so I'm not sure. I recommend getting your hands on 2e if you can, its balance isn't flawless but it's a very well-put-together little system-- and my brother's go-to system for nearly anything.

I'll second this, 2e is the more streamlined and generally better system (its d20 roots are way more hidden than 1e's, and I remember 2e being a bit off-putting to me when I first looked at it due to that and other reasons, but I eventually found 2e to be the better game).

BTW Kiero, I really like the character concepts! :)

Quote from: The Ent;724140I don't have the book with me - but do look at it a bit.

It's been a long while since I looked at my 1e book mind.

If you do get a chance, have a look and see if it refreshes your memory. I could always do a Google search for problems with it, too.

Quote from: markfitz;724143This is slightly off topic Kiero, but this character description, especially the "it was supposed to perfect his morality" bit just SCREAMS Strange Case of Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde ... it could be awesome if the failure of the experiment also led to some kind of splitting off of his "darker" side, and perhaps this came into play when his powers are activated, through corruption or degeneration or something. It's implied in the book that in Hyde form, the character has enhanced strength, toughness, youth, etc.

Just a thought.

It's my character, and a deliberate reference to Jekyll/Hyde which felt fitting given the Victorian setting. Essentially the experiment failed not only because the alchemist got it wrong, but because he didn't need his morality perfecting. He was in prison for a crime he didn't commit when he was "recruited" for the project, and with great dramatic irony his newfound powers allowed him to escape.

I'm leaning towards chemical dependency as his flaw, he needs to maintain a supply of the basic formula to avoid withdrawal symptoms and possibly death.

Quote from: LibraryLass;724146I seem to recall some kind of balancing issue with sidekicks, but it's been years, so I'm not sure. I recommend getting your hands on 2e if you can, its balance isn't flawless but it's a very well-put-together little system-- and my brother's go-to system for nearly anything.

No one has mentioned sidekicks yet; minions, but not sidekicks. I don't know if our setup really lends itself to sidekicks. I'll keep it in mind.

We're using what we've got; stuff I've read on 2e suggests it's much more complicated than 1e.

Quote from: The Ent;724148I'll second this, 2e is the more streamlined and generally better system (its d20 roots are way more hidden than 1e's, and I remember 2e being a bit off-putting to me when I first looked at it due to that and other reasons, but I eventually found 2e to be the better game).

BTW Kiero, I really like the character concepts! :)

I can see streamlining in areas like the skills list (which we're going to consolidate/prune - I found the 1e to 2e conversion doc (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96034402/Mutants%20%26%20Masterminds%201e%20to%202e%20Conversion%20Guide.pdf)), what other areas are simplified in 2e?

Thanks! I was really surprised how quickly the premise and initial character concepts came together. We've never played supers before as a group (I haven't period) so I think the novelty factor helped.

I don't know if it's something that's actually been done a million times; maybe it has and I'm just unaware of it, but Victorian street-level supers strikes me as a very inspiring and enormously fun mashup. I suppose there are things like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but in that I think that the literary pastiche element takes precedence over the "supers" aspect. In any case, good luck with what sounds like an absolute blast ....

We're going to be doing some tweaking of skills - consolidating the list downwards primarily (using M&M2e as a guide via the conversion guide (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96034402/Mutants%20%26%20Masterminds%201e%20to%202e%20Conversion%20Guide.pdf)), but also potentially making skill points cheaper.

The first cut takes us from 39 down to 24:
Acrobatics (+Balance)
Athletics (Climb, Jump and Swim)
Bluff (+Innuendo and Taunt)
Concentration?
*Craft (+Demolitions, Forgery and Repair)
-Artistic, Chemical, Mechanical, Structural
Diplomacy
Disable Device (+Open Lock)
Disguise - fold into Bluff?
Drive
Escape Artist - fold into Acrobatics?
Gather Info
Handle Animal - fold into Ride?
Intimidate
*Knowledge (+Science)
-Arcane/Occult, Art, Behavioural Science, Business, Civics, Current Affairs, Earth Science, History, Life Science, Physical Science, Streetwise, Tactics, Technology, Theology/Philosophy
Medicine
Notice (Listen and Spot)
*Perform
-Acting, Comedy, Dance, Oratory, Musical Instruments [Piano, Percussion, String, Wind], Singing
Profession
Read Lips
Ride
Sense Motive
Sleight/Hand
Stealth (Hide and Move Silent)
Survival

Removed: Computers and Pilot - since neither electronics nor aeroplanes exist yet.

There's obviously still scope for reduction there, either things that could be folded into another, or stuff that isn't relevant for the campaign.

The other question is what the impact of changing the PP:skill points ratio is. A criticism I've seen on 1e is that skills are basically irrelevant, you're better of boosting your attributes. If changed to 1PP:2 skill points, along with the consolidation, does that make skills a more worthwhile consideration?

School me on traps; it's a D20 system and there are a lot of overlaps between what things do. For example Iron Will or Supersave: Will - they appear to cost the same, though of course you can boost the latter as high as you like. How should you be apportioning points between attributes, Feats and Powers (ie at what point are you probably into diminishing returns and should be investing elsewhere)?

Also minimum levels of things like BAB and your saves; is half your PL a good minimum?

Are there any articles out there on how to build characters and avoid serious trouble? I know this is an old game that people probably aren't playing any more, but we'd appreciate some help. Especially given I hear the example characters are basically rubbish and poorly built.

For example, I want to build a brick/martial artist; is unarmed combat any good? How useful is grappling? Can you do two-weapon fighting unarmed, and is it worthwhile? Does Natural Weapon stack with other unarmed stuff? Do you need a Strike power as a melee-ist?

The game setup reminds me a bit of a semi-modernized take of On Her Majesty's Arcane Service (http://www.flyingmice.com/OHMAS.html) as well as Agents Of The Crown (http://catalog.chaosium.com/product_info.php?cPath=55&products_id=3743)... though neither of those are quite as superheroic.

Quote from: The Ent;724148I'll second this, 2e is the more streamlined and generally better system...

I've heard the same said of M&M 3e vs 2e.  (No personal experience with it, so take that for what it's worth.)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;724695I've heard the same said of M&M 3e vs 2e.  (No personal experience with it, so take that for what it's worth.)

It's probably true, but I found that the purely effects-based presentation sometimes made it hard for me personally to figure out how to realize a concept.

I haven't delved deeply into 1E, but be aware that 2E and 3E have some yawping great character creation and combat mechanics problems, to the extent that as a group you really have to have a gentleman's agreement to either pretend they don't exist or else rewrite large chunks of the rules to get something sane.  If those are legacies held over from 1E, then they could cause problems with your game.

PL8 is a bit high for a truly Victorian supers game.  Unless they changed the scale dramatically between 1e and 2e, PL6-7 might be more appropriate.

Quote from: daniel_ream;725124I haven't delved deeply into 1E, but be aware that 2E and 3E have some yawping great character creation and combat mechanics problems, to the extent that as a group you really have to have a gentleman's agreement to either pretend they don't exist or else rewrite large chunks of the rules to get something sane.  If those are legacies held over from 1E, then they could cause problems with your game.

PL8 is a bit high for a truly Victorian supers game.  Unless they changed the scale dramatically between 1e and 2e, PL6-7 might be more appropriate.

As I understand things, while 2e and 3e are quite similar, one building upon the other, 1e is completely different. I don't think the PLs even map from one to the other two.

IMO 1e is the best edition if you like simplicity. It does contain more D20 legacy elements, such as Strength adding a bonus to hit in melee, but its the easiest to use. It is also much less effects based than 2e and 3e.

2e streamlined elements of 1e but also made it more complex and also moved to effects based powers, which some people find tricky to use. It has the most support for it.

3e continued 2e's trend. If you like what you see in 2e, then go 3e, unless the added support of 2e is something you value.

Here's my first stab at building my character, I need to save some points for skills (waiting for a ruling on whether we're going 2:1 or 3:1 with our shortened list), and I think I need to focus more on the core concept. Essentially that's a brick, someone who had an alchemical super-soldier serum equivalent (inspired partly by Dr Jekyll and partly by Mikakuru from Arrow) granting strength, endurance and regeneration.

QuoteAJAX, PL: 8, Identity: (Secret ID), Size: Medium.

INIT: +5, DEF: 20/20;   Base Speed  40/80/160;  

MELEE +13, RANGED +9, MENTAL +2.

SAVES: DMG +9, FORT +7, REF +5, WILL +6;  

ABILITIES: STR 20 (+8), DEX 20 (+5), CON 20 (+7), INT 14 (+2), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 14 (+2)

FEATS: Ambidexterity [ignores off-hand penalty (-4)], Durability (Super) [Lethal dmg < = to dmg save is stun], Endurance [+4 to endurance-related actions], Toughness [+2 to Damage Saves], Attack Focus [ +1 attack (unarmed)], Iron Will [+2 Will Saves], Attractive [ +3 bluff/diplomacy], Rapid Strike [Extra melee attack @ -2], Two-Weapon Fighting [2 weapon fighting penalty to -2, -6], Imp. 2 Weapon Fighting [2nd attack with off-hand weapon].

POWERS:
SUPER-CONSTITUTION [+2] [CHEMICAL], [None] [Personal] [Permanent] [save:N/A]
COMBAT SENSE [+5] [TRAINING], [None] [Personal] [Continuous] [save:N/A]
REGENERATION [+3] [CHEMICAL], [None] [Personal] [Permanent] [save:N/A]
SUPER-STRENGTH [+3] [CHEMICAL], extra: Leaping [+3]Power stunt: Lethal [None] [Personal] [Permanent] [save:N/A]
AMAZING SAVE (Will) [+2] [TRAINING], [None] [Personal] [Permanent] [save:N/A]
RUNNING [+2] [CHEMICAL], [Half] [Personal] [Sustained] [save:N/.

WEAKNESS: Addiction [mod] - Will save DC 15 or fatigued.

COST: abilities 42, combat 22, skills 0, feats 20, powers 42, weakness -10, total 116. "

Do I really need Combat Sense, rather than just trusting to being able to shrug off hits? Is he durable enough to be able to just take hits (since between Durable and a Damage Save of +9, he'll probably get stunned a lot)? Omitting Protection is intentional, I'd rather not close down the GM's options (or encourage him to ignore physical and go straight to mental attacks).

Can I actually have a BAB of +14 at PL8 (ie is BAB PL-capped)? That's what it is with unarmed attacks, theoretically.

Is my Defense high enough? Should I be putting those points from Combat Sense into his base a couple of points instead? Or is that another instance of encouraging attacks target elsewhere if it's too high?

He's an unarmed brawler, is two-weapon fighting a trap (since you need a full-attack action)? Am I over-investing in full-attack-requiring options (four Feats all told, including Rapid Strike)? Is +8 a big enough damage bonus at PL8, or should he really be using weapons? This might be my SWSE experience talking (the system seems similar in certain respects), is it hard to get full attacks, or will the foes come to me?

Rather than the Lethal Power Stunt for Super Strength, would I be better off with Strike (since each rank gives +1 damage as well as being Lethal)? Or can Strike not be used with multi-attacking?

I'm extremely conscious of the way hard-to-hurt bricks invite mind control. Is my Will Save high enough at +6? Or should I be looking at more ranks in Amazing Save (Will)?

His Weakness is actually Chemical Dependency - he needs a special tonic every week to bring his alchemical processes back into equilibrium or Bad Things start to happen. I'm considering adding Antagonist if the GM is open to more than one Weakness (which I'll put into skills).

Here's my current draft:

QuoteDaniel Warburton, PL: 8, Identity: Ajax, Age: 28, Gender: Male, Size: Medium.

INIT: +5, DEF: 21/16;   Base Speed  45/90/180, Leaping  15/30/60;  

MELEE +13, RANGED +5, MENTAL +2.

SAVES: DMG +13, FORT +8, REF +5, WILL +6;  

ABILITIES: STR 20 (+8), DEX 20 (+5), CON 20 (+8), INT 14 (+2), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 14 (+2)

SKILLS: Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (Current Affairs) +3, Notice +5, Profession (Law) +4, Sense Motive +3

FEATS: Ambidexterity, Attack Focus (unarmed), Attractive, Durability, Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack, Takedown Attack, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting

POWERS:
ALCHEMICAL SERUM [+3] [CHEMICAL]:
Super Strength (Extras: Amazing Save (Dmg), Leaping)
Super Constitution
Regeneration
Running

AMAZING SAVE (WILL) [+2] [TRAINING]
STRIKE [+2] [TRAINING]

WEAKNESS: Chemical Dependency.

COST: abilities 42, combat 20, skills* 9, feats 20, powers 39, weakness -10, total 120.

*Consolidated skills list and 1PP=2 skill points

I'm wondering about whether I need to scrounge up 11 points to raise his main power to rank 4. I'd drop a level of Strike (2PP), lose a couple of skill points (on Athletics and Intimidate - net effect no change to those - 1PP), drop Intelligence to 12 (2PP), Drop Charisma to 12 (2PP), lose Attractive (2PP), then I still need 2PP from somewhere. But I wonder if that's all come at the cost of completely hollowing-out my concept.

Quote from: Skywalker;725144IMO 1e is the best edition if you like simplicity. It does contain more D20 legacy elements, such as Strength adding a bonus to hit in melee, but its the easiest to use. It is also much less effects based than 2e and 3e.

1st edition is a "d20 game" in every sense of the phrase (and I agree about the simplicity). Someone who has played D&D 3.X or Pathfinder would be able to figure it out in about two seconds. 2nd and 3rd editions definitely moved more towards a "traditional" sort of superhero game; 3rd reminds me of DC Heroes in more ways than one. Honestly, for the implied intent in the original post, a casual every-so-often game is the perfect scenario for using 1st edition.

Here's the reworked version:

QuoteAjax

INIT: +5, DEF: 21/16;   Base Speed  50/100/200, Leaping  20/40/80;

MELEE +13, RANGED +5, MENTAL +3. DAMAGE unarmed +9S, Strike +11L

SAVES: DMG +13, FORT +9, REF +5, WILL +7;

ABILITIES: STR 20 (+9), DEX 20 (+5), CON 20 (+9), INT 12 (+1), WIS 16 (+3), CHA 10 (0)

SKILLS: Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Handle Animal +1 (Ride +6), Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Current Affairs) +2, Notice +6, Profession (Law) +5, Sense Motive +4

FEATS: Ambidexterity, Durability, Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack, Takedown Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting.

POWERS:
ALCHEMICAL SERUM [+4] [CHEMICAL]
Super Strength
Extra: Leaping
Extra: Amazing Save (Dmg)
Super Constitution
Regeneration
Running

AMAZING SAVE (WILL) [+2] [TRAINING],
STRIKE [+2] [TRAINING].

WEAKNESS: Chemical Dependency.

COST: abilities 38, combat 20, skills 8, feats 14, powers 50, weakness -10, total 120.

Quote from: Kiero;724136Are there any traps (often are with D20 games) we should be aware of? Any broken/exploitable things to be aware of?

I saved this from the old M&M 1E forum, which I don't think exists anymore. This is how to build a two-weapon fighter that attacks 10 times a round (which may or may not fit the above request, depending on who you ask.) Each line is a step in the process. Caveat: I never checked this for validity; I had moved on to 2E by then.

+15: Start with BAB +10, Dex 20 (using one weapon)
+13/+13: Add Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidextrous (using 2 weapons)
+13/+13/+8: Add Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
+11/+11/+11/+6: Add Rapid Fire (one weapon), Multishot
+9/+9/+9/+9/+4: Add Rapid Shot
+5/+5/+5/+5/+5/+5/+0: Add Autofire (one weapon)
-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-6: Add Autofire (both), Rapidfire (both)

Quote from: Blue Seraph;726761I saved this from the old M&M 1E forum, which I don't think exists anymore. This is how to build a two-weapon fighter that attacks 10 times a round (which may or may not fit the above request, depending on who you ask.) Each line is a step in the process. Caveat: I never checked this for validity; I had moved on to 2E by then.

+15: Start with BAB +10, Dex 20 (using one weapon)
+13/+13: Add Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidextrous (using 2 weapons)
+13/+13/+8: Add Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
+11/+11/+11/+6: Add Rapid Fire (one weapon), Multishot
+9/+9/+9/+9/+4: Add Rapid Shot
+5/+5/+5/+5/+5/+5/+0: Add Autofire (one weapon)
-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-1/-6: Add Autofire (both), Rapidfire (both)

A ranged character really isn't what I had in mind. He's a two-fisted brawler; ultimately it came down to a choice between just Rapid Strike, or Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting.

I chose the latter because of the flexibility, being able to pick up weapons from time to time, and because I might get Improved Grappling, and thus be able to grab people one-handed with either hand (and thump them with the other).