We're going to be featuring a Victorian-era street-level supers game as our backup game for when people can't make it. Because it was on the shelf, and is already a supers system, we will be using 1st edition Mutants and Masterminds. Our GM has played it before (though not run it) and thought it worked reasonably well. We are familiar with D20 games as a group, and are willing to give it a go; if it doesn't work so well, we'll look for an alternative system to continue with the premise. We will only be using this book and have no supplements, nor intention to get them.

So what's the skinny? Where can I find the errata (I found an official-looking site, which gave 404 errors on the errata page or is this the correct one?). How material is it all?

There's an awful lot of freedom in building a character. Are there any traps (often are with D20 games) we should be aware of? Any broken/exploitable things to be aware of?

Are there any tips or tricks to keeping things moving fast?

On a quick skim, we couldn't work out how to gauge the right Power Level for our game; it's supposed to be more grounded and so for the moment we said PL8; is that appropriate? Is there a table somewhere giving a guide to how to choose the right PL for the game?

The central premise is that we're working for a secret government ministry charged with defending the Crown and the Realm against the occult and other weirdness (like The Laundry, apparently). While it is headquartered in London, we'll be stationed somewhere else (possibly an island in the Irish Sea) and have a brief to rove across the Empire as required. There will be a grand tour of Europe at some point.

We haven't tried to make characters yet, so far the concepts we have (subject to change between now and making them next week):

• A woman who fell into (something she perceived as) Hell, got back out and spent a long time researching demonology and such. Then she managed to bind an angel into her body and use its powers, though she has to perform occult rituals on a regular basis to keep it locked down.
• A direct descendant of King Arthur whose bloodline gives him minion-controlling/leadership powers (amongst other things to be developed) and wields Excalibur. I suspect he'll be a face character.
• A guy who's been given an alchemical equivalent of Captain America's super-soldier serum (actually a failed experiment, it was supposed to perfect his morality); enhanced strength, toughness and regeneration, along with a side of other alchemical potions he can take for temporary effects (like fire resistance or nightvision).

There will be a fourth character, no idea what yet, the player is away. Given the nature of the game, there will never be more than three PCs, and we have license to swap them out for a different one if we like.

Please tell.

I seem to remember that Speedster powers were extremely powerful in 1e, to the point of brokenness.

Quote from: The Ent;724138I seem to remember that Speedster powers were extremely powerful in 1e, to the point of brokenness.

Good to know.

Is that at any level (I had considered a rank or two of it, if I had points to spare) or just the higher ones? If it's just plain broken, I'll avoid (it's marginal to my concept anyway).

Quote from: Kiero;724139Good to know.

Is that at any level (I had considered a rank or two of it, if I had points to spare) or just the higher ones? If it's just plain broken, I'll avoid (it's marginal to my concept anyway).

I don't have the book with me - but do look at it a bit.

It's been a long while since I looked at my 1e book mind.

Quote from: Kiero;724136

• A guy who's been given an alchemical equivalent of Captain America's super-soldier serum (actually a failed experiment, it was supposed to perfect his morality); enhanced strength, toughness and regeneration, along with a side of other alchemical potions he can take for temporary effects (like fire resistance or nightvision).

This is slightly off topic Kiero, but this character description, especially the "it was supposed to perfect his morality" bit just SCREAMS Strange Case of Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde ... it could be awesome if the failure of the experiment also led to some kind of splitting off of his "darker" side, and perhaps this came into play when his powers are activated, through corruption or degeneration or something. It's implied in the book that in Hyde form, the character has enhanced strength, toughness, youth, etc.

Just a thought.

I seem to recall some kind of balancing issue with sidekicks, but it's been years, so I'm not sure. I recommend getting your hands on 2e if you can, its balance isn't flawless but it's a very well-put-together little system-- and my brother's go-to system for nearly anything.

Quote from: LibraryLass;724146I seem to recall some kind of balancing issue with sidekicks, but it's been years, so I'm not sure. I recommend getting your hands on 2e if you can, its balance isn't flawless but it's a very well-put-together little system-- and my brother's go-to system for nearly anything.

I'll second this, 2e is the more streamlined and generally better system (its d20 roots are way more hidden than 1e's, and I remember 2e being a bit off-putting to me when I first looked at it due to that and other reasons, but I eventually found 2e to be the better game).

BTW Kiero, I really like the character concepts!

Quote from: The Ent;724140I don't have the book with me - but do look at it a bit.

It's been a long while since I looked at my 1e book mind.

If you do get a chance, have a look and see if it refreshes your memory. I could always do a Google search for problems with it, too.

Quote from: markfitz;724143This is slightly off topic Kiero, but this character description, especially the "it was supposed to perfect his morality" bit just SCREAMS Strange Case of Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde ... it could be awesome if the failure of the experiment also led to some kind of splitting off of his "darker" side, and perhaps this came into play when his powers are activated, through corruption or degeneration or something. It's implied in the book that in Hyde form, the character has enhanced strength, toughness, youth, etc.

Just a thought.

It's my character, and a deliberate reference to Jekyll/Hyde which felt fitting given the Victorian setting. Essentially the experiment failed not only because the alchemist got it wrong, but because he didn't need his morality perfecting. He was in prison for a crime he didn't commit when he was "recruited" for the project, and with great dramatic irony his newfound powers allowed him to escape.

I'm leaning towards chemical dependency as his flaw, he needs to maintain a supply of the basic formula to avoid withdrawal symptoms and possibly death.

Quote from: LibraryLass;724146I seem to recall some kind of balancing issue with sidekicks, but it's been years, so I'm not sure. I recommend getting your hands on 2e if you can, its balance isn't flawless but it's a very well-put-together little system-- and my brother's go-to system for nearly anything.

No one has mentioned sidekicks yet; minions, but not sidekicks. I don't know if our setup really lends itself to sidekicks. I'll keep it in mind.

We're using what we've got; stuff I've read on 2e suggests it's much more complicated than 1e.

Quote from: The Ent;724148I'll second this, 2e is the more streamlined and generally better system (its d20 roots are way more hidden than 1e's, and I remember 2e being a bit off-putting to me when I first looked at it due to that and other reasons, but I eventually found 2e to be the better game).

BTW Kiero, I really like the character concepts!

I can see streamlining in areas like the skills list (which we're going to consolidate/prune - I found the 1e to 2e conversion doc), what other areas are simplified in 2e?

Thanks! I was really surprised how quickly the premise and initial character concepts came together. We've never played supers before as a group (I haven't period) so I think the novelty factor helped.

I don't know if it's something that's actually been done a million times; maybe it has and I'm just unaware of it, but Victorian street-level supers strikes me as a very inspiring and enormously fun mashup. I suppose there are things like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but in that I think that the literary pastiche element takes precedence over the "supers" aspect. In any case, good luck with what sounds like an absolute blast ....

We're going to be doing some tweaking of skills - consolidating the list downwards primarily (using M&M2e as a guide via the conversion guide), but also potentially making skill points cheaper.

The first cut takes us from 39 down to 24:
Acrobatics (+Balance)
Athletics (Climb, Jump and Swim)
Bluff (+Innuendo and Taunt)
Concentration?
*Craft (+Demolitions, Forgery and Repair)
-Artistic, Chemical, Mechanical, Structural
Diplomacy
Disable Device (+Open Lock)
Disguise - fold into Bluff?
Drive
Escape Artist - fold into Acrobatics?
Gather Info
Handle Animal - fold into Ride?
Intimidate
*Knowledge (+Science)
-Arcane/Occult, Art, Behavioural Science, Business, Civics, Current Affairs, Earth Science, History, Life Science, Physical Science, Streetwise, Tactics, Technology, Theology/Philosophy
Medicine
Notice (Listen and Spot)
*Perform
-Acting, Comedy, Dance, Oratory, Musical Instruments [Piano, Percussion, String, Wind], Singing
Profession
Read Lips
Ride
Sense Motive
Sleight/Hand
Stealth (Hide and Move Silent)
Survival

Removed: Computers and Pilot - since neither electronics nor aeroplanes exist yet.

There's obviously still scope for reduction there, either things that could be folded into another, or stuff that isn't relevant for the campaign.

The other question is what the impact of changing the PP:skill points ratio is. A criticism I've seen on 1e is that skills are basically irrelevant, you're better of boosting your attributes. If changed to 1PP:2 skill points, along with the consolidation, does that make skills a more worthwhile consideration?

School me on traps; it's a D20 system and there are a lot of overlaps between what things do. For example Iron Will or Supersave: Will - they appear to cost the same, though of course you can boost the latter as high as you like. How should you be apportioning points between attributes, Feats and Powers (ie at what point are you probably into diminishing returns and should be investing elsewhere)?

Also minimum levels of things like BAB and your saves; is half your PL a good minimum?

Are there any articles out there on how to build characters and avoid serious trouble? I know this is an old game that people probably aren't playing any more, but we'd appreciate some help. Especially given I hear the example characters are basically rubbish and poorly built.

For example, I want to build a brick/martial artist; is unarmed combat any good? How useful is grappling? Can you do two-weapon fighting unarmed, and is it worthwhile? Does Natural Weapon stack with other unarmed stuff? Do you need a Strike power as a melee-ist?

The game setup reminds me a bit of a semi-modernized take of On Her Majesty's Arcane Service as well as Agents Of The Crown... though neither of those are quite as superheroic.

Quote from: The Ent;724148I'll second this, 2e is the more streamlined and generally better system...

I've heard the same said of M&M 3e vs 2e.  (No personal experience with it, so take that for what it's worth.)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;724695I've heard the same said of M&M 3e vs 2e.  (No personal experience with it, so take that for what it's worth.)

It's probably true, but I found that the purely effects-based presentation sometimes made it hard for me personally to figure out how to realize a concept.