I am working on a project that I call minimal dungeons. The idea came to me from reading the various discussions about Blackmoor, El Raja Key, Tegal Manor, Greyhawk, etc. Whenever you see part of their notes they look almost ludicrously minimal, aside from a few detailed setpieces. Something like Kitchen - 5 Orcs HD1 HP 5,5,4,3, Treasure 100 gps in a sack on the table.
So what going on here? Especially when we hear that many of these places were huge sprawling megadungeons. When we see official releases many times is it is a fairly large box or thick book. More often we just don't see anything at all.
I am beginning to think that everybody's expectations got skewed when the most of the early modules were tournament modules. In tournaments you need make things clear to make sure the module is fairly run for everybody.
I don't think we need that level of detail at the tabletop. Yes if you are publishing you will need some words in there to teach the referee what you think the module is about. But beyond a certain point extra verbiage is excess weight.
But where is that point? Where does it quit being something that save you time in making a fun session and changes into something little better than what you get from having a computer randomly generate a dungeon.
I don't know and right now I don't have the answer. But hopefully what I am doing will enlighten me to what would be a good answer. And hopefully you will get something out of it as well.
In addition a lot of people slag the Old School Renaissance for being too nostalgia oriented, or too backward oriented. I always thought that was hogwash with all the new things that bloggers, forum folks, and publishers create. And it no different for me with this exercise. While learning how the first campaigns were run is fun what I am looking to do is something more practical. How to make a dungeon that is useful, that you will buy, doesn't cost a lot either in time to write or page count, and just as important allow you to make it your own.
This is the dungeon I will be using.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/TCFne037s_I/AAAAAAAAA8E/FxrdwNS1mKE/s1600/Elven+Ruins+sm.jpg
It from an old composition book of graph paper that has a dozen of my earliest dungeons (about all that survived). The keys were long lost ago so I decided to reuse the map.
After some reading and consideration I decided to use the Moldavy random dungeon content as the foundation. Added to that I used the original version of the Monster and Treasure assortments. For the upper levels that I am detailing today I am drawing from the 3rd level charts. I know Swords & Wizardry has some charts but I will try them at another time.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/TFZJdIUyVwI/AAAAAAAAA-c/StEiPYCnRSo/s320/random_contents.jpg
Like my sandbox fantasy settings there will be an overarching theme. In this case this site was the home of an old Elven Temple community devoted to the god Silvanus. I apologize if I get vague on the background details but the group just ready to go down to the level below and I don't want to give too much away. Everything here they already been through.
So I roll up 24 locations according to Moldavy's chart and came up with this.
1a - Empty
1b - Monster, Treasure, No
1c - Empty
1d - Monster, Treasure, Yes
1e - Trap, Treasure, Yes
1f - Empty
2 - Monster, Treasure, No
3 - Special
4 - Monster, Treasure, No
5 - Special
6 - Empty, Treasure, No
7 - Monster, Treasure, Yes
8a - Empty
8b - Trap, Treasure, No
9a - Empty
9b - Special
10a - Monster, Treasure, No
10b - Monster, Treasure, Yes
10c - Special
10d - Special
10e - Monster, Treasure, No
10f - Monster, Treasure, Yes
10g - Monster, Treasure, No
10h - Special
#1 - Elven House
1a Entrance Chamber
Empty
1b Ruined Living Room
5 Orcs: HD 1; HP 3x7, 2 x 3; AC 6[13]; Atk 1 spear (1d6); Move 9; Save 17; CL/XP 1/15; Special: None.
1c Empty Room with debris
1d Ruined sitting room.
Resting in this room is the warleader of the Orcs.
Orc Warleader: HD 4; HP 12; AC 6[13]; Atk 1 spear (1d6+2); Move 9; Save 17; CL/XP 1/15; Special: None.
1e, ruined bedroom.
Spike Trap 2d6 damage. A board with a spike is rigged to swing across the door opening
On the remains of a dressed is a jeweled box with over 1,000d treasure and paralyzation needle trap Save or be paralyzed for 24 hours.
1f Bedroom Closet
Empty
Since this ruined elven temple is found in Dearthwood which is infested by Orcs having an orc lair is an easy call.
2 – Meditation Chapel
13 Giant Centipede (small, lethal): HD 1d2hp; AC 9[10]; Atk 1 bite (0 + poison); Move 13; Save 18; CL/XP 2/30; Special: poison bite (+4 save or die).
To me the Mediation Chapel is an elven thing where they go to commune and relax. Probably need the above line if I publish this. The 13 giant centipedes can be nasty if the party not smart about taking them out.
3 – Ancient Well
An overgrown well untended for generations, withered flowers and pitted bowls of rotten food are found in niches. If a new fresh offering is made the pixies living in there will grant a +1 bless lasting for 1d6 days to the entire party.
The first special. Set it up as a boon for the party.
4 – Amphitheater
An ancient elven wight lives in room at the bottom of the Amphitheater. The room was used to store props and as a changing room.
Wight: HD 3; HP 18; AC 5[14]; Atk 1 claw (1hp + level drain); Move 9; Save 14; CL/XP 5/240; Special: Drain 1 level with hit, hit only by magic or silver weapons.
Probably need to explain that it is sunken into the ground. As the map can be looked at either way.
5 – Dining Hall
When entered the party will see a hall with tables laden with food. When they sit down and start eating it will disappear showing the true ruined appearance. They will hear a sigh and get a feeling of great sadness. This will reset the next full moon.
The transformation of the Elven realm of Silverwood into Dearthwood was a tragedy this is meant to convey some of that sorrow. The second special result.
6 – The Kitchen
Rotten remains of a kitchen.
I like to write locales that make sense. While I can understand the appeal of funhouse dungeons they are not really my forte.
7 – Storeroom
This room was the kitchen storeroom. Amid the piles of refuse are the two Giant Snakes and their treasure. A Potion of Fire Resistance and a jeweled Necklace worth 1,000d.
Giant Constrictor: HD 6; HP 28; AC 5[14]; Atk 1 bite (1d3), 1 constrict (2d4); Move 10; Save 11; CL/XP 7/600; Special: Constrict
d = denarius = 1 silver penny = 1 silver piece. I price everything in silver, call the coins pennies as a flavor thing.
8 - Cottage
8a – Bedroom
The ruined remains of the Bedroom of a Cottage
8b - Closet
The topshelf of the closet is rotted causing it to collapse when the door is opened. Save or suffer 2d6 damage. In the fallen junk you find 1,200d.
Trap with treasure at least there is some consolation for the pain.
9 - Cottage
9a – Bedroom
The ruined remains of the Bedroom of a Cottage
9b – Closet
In the pile of junk there is a music box.
The music box can be used on the next level to soothe a dragon.
10-Temple of the Elves
10a –Temple Steps
8 Giant Rats surry around the temple steps
Giant Rat: HD 1d4hp; HP 4 x 3, 3 x2, 2 x 2, 1x 1 AC 7[12]; Atk 1 bite (1d3); Move 12; Save 18; CL/XP A/5; Special: 5% are diseased.
10b – Rubble pile
2 Monstrous Rats lie hidden guarding their treasure of 2,800d.
Monstrously Huge Giant Rat: HD 3; HP 10, 8; AC 6[13]; Atk 2 claws (1d3),1 bite (1d6); Move 12; Save 14; CL/XP 3/120; Special: 5% are diseased.
The party approaches the temple there are giant rats scurrying around the steps. I think this is a great evocative scene. However I think I need to explain the setup with the Monstrous Rats a bit better. Basically the players will see piles of refuse and check them out. The Monstrous rats are a gotcha moment.
10c – Alcove of Elders
The half dozen statues along this wall depict various noteworthy elders, scholars, and sages of the elves. Meditating in front of one of the Statues will cause the following spells to be cast. One time for 1 person every full moon.
1 Cast Healing (4d6+2 hp healed) , "Virtue is healing."
2 Cast Dark Vision "One must see one's enemies"
3 Create Food, "An army doesn't walk on it's stomach.
4 Shield (duration 24 hours, AC 15 melee, 17 missile), "A good defense helps when a good offense fails"
5 Haste (doubles speed and attack for 24 hours), "A good offense is better than a good defense"
6 Strength (duration 24 hours, 2d4 strength, fighter, 1d6 strength clerics, theives), "Sometimes power is best when brought directly on your enemy".
10d – Alcove of Heroes
The half dozen statues along this wall depict various noteworthy heroes of the elves. Meditating in front of one of the statue will confer the following effect for 24 hours 1 time only for all six.
1 Raises Strength (1d6) "He could bear the load of a dozen."
2 Raises Intelligence, "He outfought his enemies by his wits"
3 Raises Wisdom, "None was a better strategist"
4 Raises Dexterity "If you saw his blade, it was too late."
5 Raises Constitution, "He persevered where others fail."
6 Raises Charisma, "Thousand would gladly follow him into the abyss."
This is was a fun special to write and it played really well. Probably need a sentence or two explaining the setup a little better.
10e - Altar
A centipede swarm lives around the altar.
Centipede Swarm: HD n/a; AC n/a; Atk 1 (1hp + non-lethal poison); Move 4; Save 18; CL/XP 1/15; Special: non-lethal poison.
This was a hilarious moment in the game as one member of the party rushes to check out the altar.
10f – Storeroom
Various items used in the temple were stored here. 2 evil Curates are here preparing to haul various items to begin a ritual to desecrate the main temple. In a large chest along with ritual implements is +1 Sword of Silvanus (they planned on destroying this in the ritual) and 600 gold pennies.
Evil Curate; AC 2[17]; 5th level Clerics; HP 24,16; HTB +2; ATK 1 DMG 1d6 (Mace); MV 60'; Save: 10: Mace, +1 Mace, 30d; Spells: Cause Light Wounds, Protection from Good, Hold Person, Curse, Prayer
The main fight of the ground level. If I publish this need to add a few sentances here and at the beginning to explain that this is a Temple of Silvanus that these guys are going to desecrate for their evil plan. That they are demon cultists
10g – Vestry
This is was the office of the Head Druid of the Temple. Now there are 12 Orc minions of the curate lounging around eating and drinking. If they hear fighting outside they will respond in 2d6 round as they are more than a little drunk. A party has automatic surprise on the Orcs.
Orc: HD 1; HP 3x7, 3 x 3, 3 x 5, 3 x 8; AC 6[13]; Atk 1 spear (1d6); Move 9; Save 17; CL/XP 1/15; Special: None.
The drunken orc bit could be consider a bit of a funhouse but also plays to the naturalistic side of how I run things. Not every orc guarding a chest in a 10 by 10 room is going to be on the ball.
10h - Closet
This is a locked closet where the vestments and items used in temple services are stored.
Could just be ignored as flavor text but players into roleplaying could use this as a way of renewing the temple for the glory of Silvanus. I also need to flesh it out to show that these are of Silvanus not the Demon Cultists.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I think things will come together the more I write using this format along with running game sessions. One thing I noticed is that I got more verbose the further I wrote. During the writing of Level 1 I kept the short and simple descriptions more consistent in length and brevity.
I use an almost identical procedure to yours (I even use the Moldvay content generation table and simply run the entire list of numbered rooms first). Devil's Gamble was built that way as well as some of my older dungeons.
And I also think you are right about those early tournament modules giving us a very skewed perception about how much detail was in each room.
One issue is I think that the treasure table is a bit too simple. So I'll often try to vary it up by turning "200 silver pieces" into "187 silver pieces..." or something similar. Just some slight variation. I switched to the AD&D DMG random dungeon tables for the second dungeon level of my current project and I kept running into what I'm going to call the "Electrum problem.."
The "special" (aka "unique on the table) rooms are the ones that need a lot of detail. The other rooms if you can give them a cool title and maybe just a single detail ("This room has a unique series of decorative knotwork patterns on the wall and some scrawled graffiti in elven.. it says .."Danger") that's usually enough to get the improvisational imagination going when you are actually playing.
...Great post!
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;397011And I also think you are right about those early tournament modules giving us a very skewed perception about how much detail was in each room.
I will add there nothing wrong with tournament module or their modern equivalent the living campaign modules for their intended purpose. It just that the need of the tabletop != the needs of tournament/living campaigns.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;397011One issue is I think that the treasure table is a bit too simple.
Which is why I am using the original Monster and Treasure assortment. With a hundred entries per level there is a lot of variety. The 2nd version is readily available for cheap for those who are interested. Eventually I will survey what the OSR has and see if I can put together an equivalent.
Electrum Problem?
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;397011that's usually enough to get the improvisational imagination going when you are actually playing.
That the essential trick. Giving the right amount to get the imagination going and resist adding more.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;397011...Great post!
Thanks
Quote from: estar;397014Electrum Problem?
I don't use electrum pieces in my campaigns. So I have to keep converting them to half-value gold. Or divide-by-40 to get silver. etc.
I agree minimal dungeons are the way to go but I have a pet gripe which is logic.
So I would need to have things like this explained to me.
i) the spike trap was that put in place by the orcs? If not why didn;t they trigger it when exploring
ii) the jewel box with the paralysation trap. Was that put there by the orcs? Why it doesn't seen terrible orish. If it wasn't put there by the orcs then why haven't they opened it and pinched it.
iii) The amphitheater - Wights will kill orcs as well as anyone else so wouldn't the orcs have boarded up the door or stuck some odd orchish wards on the threshold to stop the thing crossing over and killing them all while they slept?
iv) the storeroom with the snakes. these aren't intelligent so their treasure must belong to someone they killed or something but how come the orcs haven't just killed and eaten the snakes and stolen all their stuff?
v) Same with the rats. One assumes the rats need to eat since the orcs are the occupiers chances are the rats eat the orcs supplies so knowing orcs why haven't they all been caught and eaten and their treasure pinched.
etc ...
You see what I mean?
Now you can explain all that and it will colour how the dungeon is played out.
Say for example the snakes if the description says. 'This sotreroom is the lair of a pair of giant snakes. After an investigation which led to two deaths the orcs leave the snakes alone and occassionally throw prisoners into the storeroom and bolt the door to enjoy the sound of the screams. In the snakes lair are ragged belongings of a couple of victims of this cruel game and if the party search carefully (game mechanic quote for how to so do) they will find a potion of firesresistance and a silver necklace with a moon stone worth 1000gp.'
Also I note your orcs don't seem to store their own food, cook it or have anywhere to take a crap ... although i am sure that will come later :)
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;397015I don't use electrum pieces in my campaigns. So I have to keep converting them to half-value gold. Or divide-by-40 to get silver. etc.
And I actually use an electrum standard...
I too prefer dungeons that make sense like what jib said about the wight. I don't necesarily need all the bits about the snakes to run the game--the players will likely never know the backstory--but if I can be entertained while I'm reading a module I consider it a plus.
Great dungeon though. Quick and to the point.
Pete
Quote from: jibbajibba;397016i) the spike trap was that put in place by the orcs? If not why didn;t they trigger it when exploring
ii) the jewel box with the paralysation trap. Was that put there by the orcs? Why it doesn't seen terrible orish. If it wasn't put there by the orcs then why haven't they opened it and pinched it.
My thinking was the Orcs just came in with the cultists and just haven't gotten around to clearing out the building. When I ran it I made it obvious that they didn't live in the building. If I had wrote that, which I didn't in this post, then you would have a different perception of the entry.
The only apparent hole is the rats, which were initially cleared and then came back in the few hours the cultists and the orc been at the site. The Monstrous Rats just remained hidden.
This is one of the parts I will have to work on. There needs to be enough for the buyer to understand the plot leaving the flavor, and specific details to his discretion.
Quote from: jibbajibba;397016Now you can explain all that and it will colour how the dungeon is played out.
Say for example the snakes if the description says. 'This sotreroom is the lair of a pair of giant snakes. After an investigation which led to two deaths the orcs leave the snakes alone and occassionally throw prisoners into the storeroom and bolt the door to enjoy the sound of the screams. In the snakes lair are ragged belongings of a couple of victims of this cruel game and if the party search carefully (game mechanic quote for how to so do) they will find a potion of firesresistance and a silver necklace with a moon stone worth 1000gp.'
If that was my intention I would word it tersely like this
QuoteThis room was the kitchen storeroom. In here there are two Giant Snakes. The floor is littered with piles of refuse and the remains of prisoners that the orcs threw in here. If searched the players will find a Potion of Fire Resistance and a jeweled Necklace worth 1,000d.
Giant Constrictor: HD 6; HP 28; AC 5[14]; Atk 1 bite (1d3), 1 constrict (2d4); Move 10; Save 11; CL/XP 7/600; Special: Constrict
Beyond this I believe the average referee is capable of supplying any additional flavor. For example if the players interrogate a Orc as to why they throw prisioners into the storeroom.
This is the part where I suspect the tournament style dungeon gets overly detailed.
Good Comments thanks.
Quote from: LordVreeg;397020And I actually use an electrum standard...
I've always used electrum as an Elven coinage. Or rather rings. My Elves use electrum rings as currency. Poor humans have taken to using them as wedding bands.
Speaking of minimal dungeons, I found this link today:
http://www.dizzydragon.net/adventuregenerator/home
This is pretty much how I like my dungeons.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Tetsubo;397147I've always used electrum as an Elven coinage. Or rather rings. My Elves use electrum rings as currency. Poor humans have taken to using them as wedding bands.
Heh.
The electrum standard (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/what+money+can+buy)
Ok, this is my 1st post here, I will say I love OD&D style games, far better imo, much easier to GM for me, then say 3.x/PF type games. I quit doing those years ago after a brain spasm trying to create an adventure for my group, the detail and length of time was staggering to me. I currently play Labyrinth Lord or OSRIC, my last dungeon took me 15 minutes in OSRIC to write-up and draw. I did something somewhat like what you did, and they had a blast, only I used Sahuagin in a sewer sytem and Giant Rats as the main culprits along with a few random encounters, which turned out to be NPC adventurer's like themselves. But yes I like your ideas.
I appreciate terseness, but I like a bit more descriptive detail in my notes to get me going. That would mean maybe two times as much text for a less important keyed area, which is still much less than modules, but gives me a stronger anchor to use as a foundation. Here are two keyed areas from our latest adventure (still in progress), set in an underworld high-tech city:
QuoteE. The large terminal of the Magnetofora [an underground magnetic railway system]. Neoclassical tower block, grand stairway flanked by idealised statues of philosophers - Mnason, Polythesis, Kreon, Kerathia, Sergius (empty pedestal), Desimos. [Lines to] ΣΤ Okeanos, ΣΤ Epsilon, ΣΤ Molonei. The interior chamber is patrolled by 4 Meta-Droids. Trains standing on the tracks, but the energy supply is out.
[stats]
F. Autocreator complex. Sealed factory blocks among broken ruins, conveyors still running but the materials have long ago run out. [Below conveyors,] pile of iridescent, purplish metal components choking the upper gorge. Laser triangles, Scorpitron patrolling perimeter in 2-hour cycle. Cache of technological items inside in control room.
[stats]
This is approximately how much I need to start improvising in the game. As long as there is a general context and something to start with, I can generate a lot of complexity by the table (some of which, if I wrote up the adventure for publication, would go in the published text, although I favour a less is more approach there as well). In our session, exploring these locations took a good four hours or so, including some pretty intense combat.
In contrast, a simple "function, monster, treasure" type of key would usually do me no good. There is still a chance I could make up something, but that sort of setup is a bit dangerous for me. Granted, a good map tells a lot, and Rob's would be pretty useful to come up with something, so I think I would manage with those notes. The same goes for Tegel (where the rooms always have some weird detail), but not what I have seen of EGG's Greyhawk levels or the M&T Assortment.
Someday in the future I´ll take a plane towards Hungary just to Kibitz while you are writing a module for your regular game. Your output is as copious as it is amazing.
If I did not generously use and abuse printed material for Dungeoneering, I could not DM our weekly game these days. I´d love to have/organize the time to prepare like you do.
The small entry evokes the good times I had with Final Fantasy Legend II (actually not a FF title, just named thusly be Square for the US market, it´s form the much more diverse and challenging SAGA series IIRC), the World of Venus. Classical gods, philosohers plus decaying high-tech environment. Great memories! "Madness in the Metafora" must be mine!
On the downside, with work, schedules and the 240 km distance, we only get to game every three weeks or so, and this Spring/Summer has had even larger gaps. That also means we have to make good use of the time, and we do get a lot of action out of individual sessions, but if I could play even every second week, that would be something. I hope to return to a better schedule this Autumn once I am through with some demanding projects, though. Maybe, hopefully.
But the point is, be happy you have a weekly game.
Quote from: Melan;397214I
In contrast, a simple "function, monster, treasure" type of key would usually do me no good. There is still a chance I could make up something, but that sort of setup is a bit dangerous for me. Granted, a good map tells a lot, and Rob's would be pretty useful to come up with something, so I think I would manage with those notes. The same goes for Tegel (where the rooms always have just weird detail), but not what I have seen of EGG's Greyhawk levels or the M&T Assortment.
Good points, the example of Tegal is why I made sure each room had a descriptive label even if it just a monster and treasure. I got a post half done titled, "Making maps earn their keep." where I will be talking about the Tegal style map.
I've really, over the years, gone the other direction, and I am positive I have less spare time than many. I really enjoy making convoluted, detail-heavy adventures, despite the fact that in my youth the players never knew what I was reading and what was 'extrapolated'.
There is a lot that a map can do, though. Tegel's map was probably the best example of a map that did 1/2 the job for the GM. Damn Map was so good I had to toss away the key and use the map for a non-gonzo usage.
Detail and game style go hand in hand, and one 'teaches' their players what to expect by playing. My guys would spend hours looking for the source of a 'strange moan' if they heard it in a hall, because they've been trained to. It wouldn't even occur to them that it was "Dungeon Dressing".
Great thread fellers. I think I might even copy/paste into wordpad to save for later when making my own adventures. Keep 'em comin' :D
Quote from: LordVreeg;397228My guys would spend hours looking for the source of a 'strange moan' if they heard it in a hall, because they've been trained to. It wouldn't even occur to them that it was "Dungeon Dressing".
Mine too! Which is great at the table because it makes it easy to plot adventures since I have a general idea of what they're going to do. But it makes it difficult to playtest commercial adventures because not every group reacts the same way. With the Labyrinth Lord adventure I'm about to release, my players jumped on every little plot hook and lead and the game ran so smoothly that I'm still not sure if it was good adventure design or the fact that I know their playstyle so well.
@Estar, can't wait to see your map post. I suck at drawing decent maps.
Pete
I also make heavy use of a classic PULP fiction (the books not the movie)staple in my games, if the party is like taking a long time to make decisions, or the game is moving slow or I haven't prepared for an area they want to explore, I throw in a random attack by some Monsters (bad guys) and figure out later why it happened, they never are the wiser.
The most important thing for me in designing / running dungeons is to understand the physical space and what use it's being put to. I lean very hard to the "natural ecology" model of dungeon design, and I tend to rely more on complex spaces and enemy tactics to vary things up than loading on a ton of different types of monsters. My dire enemy is "Read Aloud Text", especially if it's "mood" text.
Frex, I feel like I'd understand things better if a map entry was annotated as
Quote"Abandoned kitchen, 6 giant rats scavenging, 100 sp in a jar in the bottom cupboard."
than
Quote"Read this aloud to the players: 'As you enter the shadowy room, six pairs of beady red eyes stare out from between cupboard doors. The sound of skittering paws echoes through the room.' Six giant rats are hiding in the cupboards. They will attack as soon as the PCs disturb any of the food strewn about the room. Searching will reveal 100sp hidden in a jar," etc.
Quote from: flyingcircus;397197Ok, this is my 1st post here, I will say I love OD&D style games, far better imo, much easier to GM for me, then say 3.x/PF type games. I quit doing those years ago after a brain spasm trying to create an adventure for my group, the detail and length of time was staggering to me. I currently play Labyrinth Lord or OSRIC, my last dungeon took me 15 minutes in OSRIC to write-up and draw. I did something somewhat like what you did, and they had a blast, only I used Sahuagin in a sewer sytem and Giant Rats as the main culprits along with a few random encounters, which turned out to be NPC adventurer's like themselves. But yes I like your ideas.
Welcome to theRPGsite!
RPGPundit