Quote from: ggroy;320520With the way XP is awarded for mainly killing monsters, it's not too surprising that min-maxing/munchkin-ism/powergaming is inevitable.

I disagree. In just about every D20 game I've played or GMed in (3.0, 3.5, D20 Modern) my group levels up at the GMs discretion. Every few sessions or so, at the end, everyone in the group is awarded a level.

We still get min-max players and munchkins so it isn't related to XP in any way. For my group, some people just want to be the best at what they do and enjoy spending time hunting through rulebooks looking for the optimal combination of feats, skills and class abilities to make them do the most damage or be the best all-around fighter or whatever their niche is (this almost always revolves around combat for these players).

I build characters based more on what I think best fits the concept, and these almost always end up being not quite as effective as the rulebook hunting combat monsters. I make up for it by stealing the spotlight when it comes to certain role playing encounters and it all works out in the end. Each player seems to have a part of the game where they fit in best. I let them have their fun putting up massive numbers in combat, they let me do my dirty tricks and bluffing.

Quote from: GoOrange;320590I disagree. In just about every D20 game I've played or GMed in (3.0, 3.5, D20 Modern) my group levels up at the GMs discretion. Every few sessions or so, at the end, everyone in the group is awarded a level.

That's what I've done in several games.  As mentioned in previous posts, the players coming up with clever or ingenious ways of solving problems via role playing, diplomacy, and other non-combat ways, will significantly speed up their leveling up.  In these particular games, I was emphasizing critical thinking and strategies in reaching particular goals of a mission.

This type of gaming style is quite an adjustment for many munchkins/powergamers/minmax types.  For a few munchkins who played in some of my games conducted in this manner involving a lot of critical thinking, it turned out they actually liked this style of gaming.  It wasn't something they experienced previously.

Yes, I've seen min/maxers, powergamers, and munchkins in just about every game, including games with no XP system or where leveling up was at the GMs' discretion, even in games where the primary focus was not on combat!

So the whole thing is about the personality, not about the game being played.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;320639Yes, I've seen min/maxers, powergamers, and munchkins in just about every game, including games with no XP system or where leveling up was at the GMs' discretion, even in games where the primary focus was not on combat!

So the whole thing is about the personality, not about the game being played.

RPGPundit

Quoth for truth...

I, too, have seen that munchkinism is endemic to certain personality types.

I will add, however, that those personality types tend to be attracted to certain games more than others.

I also agree that munchkins will abuse any game.  They're after imaginary power, and nothing will stop them from getting it but divine (GM) intervention, and in some cases not even that without severe and game-collapsing drama.

We actually used to use one of these guys for playtesting some of the projects I worked on some years back, because he could literally find the loophole in pretty much any game in just one readthrough and wind up with an unstoppable machine.  He actually had a pretty cynical view of the quality of the average RPG, because in his view these loopholes were painfully obvious and should've been spotted in playtest ages ago, but once there, he had no qualms about taking advantage of it.

Made it a handy playtest tool, but I seldom enjoyed actually playing with the guy.

There are two types of gamers: the dickheads and everybody else. Don't game with the dickheads.

Quote from: noisms;320882There are two types of gamers: the dickheads and everybody else. Don't game with the dickheads.

QFT.

Ah, if only it were that simple!

Sometimes people are dickheads as players, but not as GMs, or vice versa. Sometimes you have to play with them for several sessions before you realise they're a dickhead. Sometimes they're only a dickhead when this other player who encourages or annoys them is around. And so on.

It'd be much easier if dickheads were always dickheads, and had some sign by which they could be easily identified. Like a copy of Cyborg Commando or something.

Myself, I love playing very powerful characters.  I see people dismiss it as juvenile power fantasies (and perhaps it is, but so what).  But I just have more fun when my character is way above a "foot soldier" in capacity, and can quickly become a real mover and shaker in the setting.

However, I still manage to have fairly complex "story stuff" when I play.

That stuff about the Champions players in Monte Cook's essay is very familiar to me.

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;321091But I just have more fun when my character is way above a "foot soldier" in capacity, and can quickly become a real mover and shaker in the setting.

In my mind, at least, such power must be earned.

If your character starts out as way above "foot soldier" capacity, that gives the fact that you are that superior that much less meaning.

If you fought tooth and nail for that status, though, it is much more significant. It has meaning. There's nothing wrong with acquiring a ridiculous level of power, but you should go through the motions of the acquisition. If it's just handed to you, or even gotten relatively easily, it just isn't as significant, IMO.

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;321091I just have more fun when my character is way above a "foot soldier" in capacity, and can quickly become a real mover and shaker in the setting.

Extraordinary people do extraordinary things. This is not remarkable. Superman stands up to and knocks over an armed robber. So what?

Ordinary people do extraordinary things. This is remarkable. Jane Shmoe stands up to and knocks over an armed robber. Awesome!

That's why in comics supers have to end up just fighting each-other all the time. Uber-tough dudes in spandex pound each-other with no permanent injury. Oh! the suspense! the tension! whatever will happen next?!

Overpowered characters can get boring after awhile.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;321144Extraordinary people do extraordinary things. This is not remarkable. Superman stands up to and knocks over an armed robber. So what?

Ordinary people do extraordinary things. This is remarkable. Jane Shmoe stands up to and knocks over an armed robber. Awesome!

Well, here is the thing.  If I'm playing the later sort of character, and the character is in fact wimpy in the system, chances are I'll just get killed by the armed robber.  So sure, that 1 out of 10 times I succeed will be really cool.

And, of course, Superman isn't a good example because his power level is so over the top -- I like being at the high end of the spectrum, but I'm not suggesting my character should be at Superman's level.

Also, I'm not suggesting my adversaries should all be pushovers.  I just prefer that my adversaries be the "big bads" of the setting.

QuoteThat's why in comics supers have to end up just fighting each-other all the time. Uber-tough dudes in spandex pound each-other with no permanent injury. Oh! the suspense! the tension! whatever will happen next?!

Again, I like high power levels, but not necessarily "invulnerable super hero" levels.  And I'm not into spandex

Quote from: GnomeWorks;321141In my mind, at least, such power must be earned.

If your character starts out as way above "foot soldier" capacity, that gives the fact that you are that superior that much less meaning.

Well, I'm trying to read this charitably, and I'll assume you are not saying that my gaming is somehow less meaningful.  Perhaps you are saying that the power itself has less meaning if I didn't work for it.

I can agree with that.

However, even at high power levels cool things happen, and a character can grow quite a bit over time, just not so much in the "power level" axis.  My characters acquire history, relationships, alliances, and all that "soft" stuff.  Plus, even at high power levels a good GM will provide significant challenges, some simply by having powerful enemies, but also from situations that are tough to solve through power alone.  Sometimes the real issue is not whether you can solve a problem, but how you solve it.

Here is a real simple example:  some guy is after my character and wants to kill him.  The bad guy has an obsessive personality, and works for a powerful "troubleshooting" company that has access to mercenary bands and stuff like that.

I can easily overpower and kill him, but I don't want to piss off his company.  Even though it would be hard for them to just kill me outright, they have significant political contacts, and who knows, they might get to me when I'm wounded or weakened somehow.  (Plus, they can fuck up my plans, and my plans matter to me.)

So here is what I did.  I called his boss and explained the problem.  I gave them a choice, either they rein the guy in or I kill him.  I made it clear that I respect their power, and don't want to go to war with them.

So, they gave me permission to kill the guy, and offered me a job, which I took (and suspect I'll regret later).

It seemed like pretty "meaningful" play to me, but YMMV.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;321070Ah, if only it were that simple!

Sometimes people are dickheads as players, but not as GMs, or vice versa. Sometimes you have to play with them for several sessions before you realise they're a dickhead. Sometimes they're only a dickhead when this other player who encourages or annoys them is around. And so on.

I see what you mean, and I may have been lucky, but it hasn't been the case in my experience but for maybe one or two players I met ages ago. I usually can identify pretty quickly who I will get along with. I'm pretty good with that.

Note that I'm not advocating some sort of game table Inquisition here. Virtually everybody is a dick, sooner or later. We all have our moments. That shouldn't be a concern on the long term.

But really, when you break it down, it really comes down to: don't play with dickheads.