Quote from: RPGPunditWhat you're telling those existing fans with this video is: We're going to radically change YOUR GAME because we don't think its very good.  I mean shit, if they wanted to start a general panic of wild paranoia and fear and loathing among their fanbase, this was pretty well the perfect way to do it: its got any real D&D 3.5 fan who saw this video wondering "are they going to think the things I LOVE about this game are part of the "flaws" they have to totally change forever?".

WotC wasn't especially concerned about pissing off 2E fans with 3E. Why should they be more solicitous of 3E fans when promoting 4E?

Quote from: HaffrungWotC wasn't especially concerned about pissing off 2E fans with 3E. Why should they be more solicitous of 3E fans when promoting 4E?

Exactly- furthermore, I am willing to bet the bulk of players (you know, the ones who don't tool around the forums all the time) don't even know about the change yet. Most of them will find out when they walk into the FLGs looking for minis or dice, and they see the (certain to exist) big ass stand up display with the freekin' NEW D&D on it.

Quote from: HaffrungWotC wasn't especially concerned about pissing off 2E fans with 3E. Why should they be more solicitous of 3E fans when promoting 4E?

Two good reasons: first, 2e was, by the time 3e came out, an all-but-dead system that was associated very negatively with the collapse of TSR, and there was this general feeling that D&D desperately needed a revival.

Second, because 2e wasn't actually designed by their own company.  3e, obviously, WAS. If you acquire an intellectual property, and plan to give it a big makeover, it makes sense to harp on its imperfections and how you're going to fix it, particularly if there's a serious amount of negative press for it and a lot of its prior consumers have already abandoned it in frustration.  On the other hand, if you are trying to make a new version of YOUR OWN intellectual property, you don't particularly want to start from the angle that your own creation was a pile of crap that you now have to reform.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOn the other hand, if you are trying to make a new version of YOUR OWN intellectual property, you don't particularly want to start from the angle that your own creation was a pile of crap that you now have to reform.

I think you'll find this internally in lots of companies -- especially when there is a significant change in staff - but it's something you shouldn't let your customers hear about... unless it's generally acknowledged that the old product was bad.  I didn't get that impression with 3e, despite whatever a small section of forum posters might say.

I still haven't gotten round to watching that video... I probably should.

I'm really hoping WotC will introduce real blogs and stop using threads in a message board and calling them a blog.  A blog usually allows comments.  They almost always have feeds you can subscribe to.  They're similar... but different... from a message board.

Both the RC and Basic/Expert D&D explicitly state that the use of minis is entirely optional and is not presupposed in the rules.

Quote from: SettembriniWhich is EXPLICITELY Mini-based. It even has the five foot step.

:raise:

Page references please.

Quote from: J ArcaneYeah, I guess I must've hallucinated all those grid maps and things.  :rolleyes:

Well, the maps in Basic/RC D&D were mapped on graph paper (10-foot squares usually).  I don't know what you mean by 'things', however.  

Nonetheless, the rules explicitly state that use of minis is entirely optional.  And I know from experience that they certainly were not presupposed by the rules.

Quote4 c mbat round is ten seconds of game time.
During a round, chacwers,can do one thing:
move, attack, cast a spell. drink a potion, or any
other single action that a penon can normally do
in ten seconds. A character cannot do two things
in a single round, such as run 20 feet and then
attack. He would have to run 20 feet in one
round, then attack in the next round.
Characters mcly stand solidly in one p!ace
and fight without moving from one position.
When a character attacks. we wumc that he is
maneuvering for pition. To rdlect this limited
vcmcnt, a character CM move up to 5 feet
ile he is fighting. Maneuvering in this way
"4s not count as an action during the round.
Melee refers to hand.to.hand combat only.
Battle implies the use of hand-to.hand combat,
missile combat. and spell combat used in combi.
nation. This chapter deals with all details of individual
and party combat. Mass combat
(between umics) is covered in Chapter 9.

page 101, start of combat chapter

Quote from: Settembrinipage 101, start of combat chapter

Thanks.  Well I'll be ... I never noticed that before!  :cool:

Nonetheless, the fact remains that the use of minis were considered entirely optional in Basic/RC D&D, and combat was easily run without them (unlike many other versions of A/D&D).

I don´t know. i think the maneuvres like fighting withdrawal, charge, set against charge etc. pretty much need a battlemat.
Now AD&D 2ndE, that´s a game needing no minis.
And even there, you could profit from it.

Wait... according to the RC you can either attack or move but not both???

In B/X that's not so clear at all. Unless I'm reading it with my 3.x-tinted glasses.

At least the red box is very clear about that.

Moldvay isn't, and the combat example is unclear IMO.

Shit, I need to clear this up. I would hate if it's only one action/round. You run up to the goblin, whereupon he hits you. Awesome.

No. It´s the other way round.

You fire your bow, they run to your place.
You win Ini and hit them.

It´s pretty tactical, I really dig it.
It also allows fleeing.

Thing thing that bugged me in the video was the way they heaped scorn on the notion of using erasers and bottle-caps to mark PCs and monsters.

WotC Guy: "Look at these dumb fucks - they didn't even use a specific miniature for each monster!"

Newbie: "Yeah, that looks stupid! I'd love to have a painted miniature for each and every monster in the Monster Manual. Do you know where I might get my hands on that sort of thing?"

WotC Guy: "Now that you mention it..."