:haw:  what am I, chopped liver?

Quote from: J ArcaneThe fact remains that there's a clear approach of "the game is broken, how do we fix it", instead of "the game is good, how do we make it better",

OK, here's a solid claim.

I challenge you to find one single quote from the various 4E announcements and notices that have been put out recently which unequivocally suggests the former, and cannot be interpreted as meaning the latter.

Quote from: WarthurOK, here's a solid claim.

I challenge you to find one single quote from the various 4E announcements and notices that have been put out recently which unequivocally suggests the former, and cannot be interpreted as meaning the latter.

Not specific, but...

Quote from: Mearls3e got a lot of things right, but anyone who has played it for a time knows that it gets things wrong. There are also legacy issues with the game that have persisted unquestioned for years. 4e is all about taking the things that work in D&D, keeping them in the game, and fixing everything else.

In my vernacular, "things that don't work" == "broken".

Now we get to splitting hairs. A few wonky rules don't make a game "broken" - heck, by those standards AD&D 1E is definitely broken if you remember the psionics and weapon speed rules. It should also be noted that Mearls started off by saying that 3E got a lot of things right, which taken with the remarks towards the end suggests that a hefty portion of the innovations which came with 3E will be retained in 4E.

Mearls isn't saying "3E is broken and needs to be replaced, stat," he's saying "3E is a good game, but there's areas which could do with improvement - hence the new edition".

Quote from: J Arcane...
Which is my whole point.  Mearls has spent too much time online, and let the True20 and C&C fans get to him, and started confusing their minority voice for the reality of the mainstream audience, and simply taking as read that the game in it's current form is "broken", when in fact it's anything but...

This is idle speculation on your part.  You have no grounds for making these ad hominem attacks on Mearls.

What's really driving the move to 4e is the need to increase sales.  That's it.  It has nothing to do with widespread dissatisfaction with 3e or Mearls listening too much to posters on fora.  Zip.

Based on what we know about 4e so far, it is clear that Mearls and the other people working on 4e want to keep most of the things about 3e that appeal to people, while attracting new players by making it more WoW-like.  And, despite your personal dislike for SWSE (although you don't seem to have ever actually read it, based on your posts), the fact is that lots of 3e fans really like SWSE.  Sales for SWSE have obviously been good enough to convince WotC that this is a good approach to revising D&D.

None of this really appeals to me personally.  I'm an old school kind of guy.  But unlike you, I'm not about to confuse my personal preferences with what makes sense for WotC/Hasbro.

Quote from: J Arcane... It's like Mearls has Akrasia's posts all bookmarked and uses them as reference works...

:haw:
Man, that would totally rock.

Unfortunately, though, like most things you post, it bears absolutely no relation to the real world.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityJ Arcane, you live in the bizarroworld...

Spot on.

(Although I do find it wildly amusing that J Arcane thinks that 4e is aimed at pleasing me and people who have similar tastes.  If only!)

Quote from: J ArcaneThe fact remains that there's a clear approach of "the game is broken, how do we fix it", instead of "the game is good, how do we make it better"

This is loopy horseshit that bears no relation to reality.

KoOS

Quote from: Caesar SlaadIn my vernacular, "things that don't work" == "broken".

Saying that there are specific elements of the game that don't work isn't even close to saying that D&D as a game is broken.  C'mon, don't tell me that you buy into this lunacy too...

KoOS

Quote from: WarthurNow we get to splitting hairs. A few wonky rules don't make a game "broken" - heck, by those standards AD&D 1E is definitely broken if you remember the psionics and weapon speed rules.

Well, if the shoe fits... :haw:

Seriously though, there's a difference between what I'm saying and what I perceive Mearls & his wrecking crew are saying. And does that statement come across that way to me? Yeah, really, sort of.

QuoteMearls isn't saying "3E is broken and needs to be replaced, stat," he's saying "3E is a good game, but there's areas which could do with improvement - hence the new edition".

I dunno. A lot of things they are booting out blatantly do not seem broken, or wonky to me.

It does seem as if their choices thus far are conceived for:
1) maximum churn
2) appeal to a slightly different audience than the bog standard 3e fan (i.e., more basic combat, WoW-like play)

These things are perfectly understandable for the purposes of making a product designed to sell, but whether the represent a bona fide improvement to the game... that, I am dubious about. I'm sure the designers have "making the game better" as a goal, but it seems a secondary one.

Of course I could be jumping to conclusions, but from the revelations seen thus far, that's how the landscape looks to me.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolSaying that there are specific elements of the game that don't work isn't even close to saying that D&D as a game is broken.  C'mon, don't tell me that you buy into this lunacy too...

It would help if you started by not putting words in my mouth. I was suggesting that what he is saying by "things that don't work" is "things that are broken". Not the game as a whole is broken.

Eh, I believe J Arcane is simply nostalgic. The game had to evolve, and we can't placate all people who are still wearing rose-coloured glasses about "prestige classes" and "cross-class skills" or whatever. What next, memorisation and wizards in pointy hats? :rolleyes:  Embrace the paradigm and ride the waves of progress, that's what I say.

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They are definitely changing things I had no problems with, and reinforcing things I´m suspicious of.
But we´ll see, we´ll see.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadIt would help if you started by not putting words in my mouth. I was suggesting that what he is saying by "things that don't work" is "things that are broken". Not the game as a whole is broken.

But on Planet J Arcane, saying that the game could be improved is exactly the same as saying that the game as a whole is broken, right?

Don´t forget:

Mearls & Co have a hammer called: "streamlining and rigourous mechanical design". And they have great proficiency in applying them to someone elses building blocks.
They have to make a new edition. So they have this hammer and see a lot of nails.

The most recent D&D Podcast with Mike Mearls and Dave Noonan is definitely worth listening to.  I think the communications around the 4e announcement could have been improved, but I think the product they're working on will likely be a big success.