Quote from: Valatar on December 20, 2023, 03:09:54 PM
I do believe that during the OGL shitstorm there were claims that the plans for D&D Beyond were to charge everyone and not be the "GM pays/players free" setup that a lot of current VTTs go with.  IIRC, it was that things like character options and minis could not be shared by the GM and had to be paid for by the respective players; I don't think they were proposing that both the GM and the players would have to pay separately for an adventure module or things like that.

But that was from a leak and was not substantiated, and it's also possible they've altered course when the whole thing blew up on them.  We won't really know how they propose to monetize their system until it comes out.

Let's say they ONLY want the players to pay a subscription fee, let's say it's JUST 5 US Dollars/month, let's also say that subscription includes character options AND minis.

How much do I HAVE TO pay to roll20 RIGHT THE FUCK NOW? ZERO, if the group pitches in to pay for the GM's premium then we pay very little.

But WotC wants to charge the GM AND the players.

Now, how long until they decide that just charging you isn't enough? That they need to charge you an extra for character options and another for minis?

Unless the other VTTs are so stupid as to jump in the "lets charge EVERYONE!" bandwagon, I don't see how the purple haired weirdoes (who are almost all broke) will jump to that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 20, 2023, 04:08:05 PM

Quote from: Valatar on December 20, 2023, 03:09:54 PM
I do believe that during the OGL shitstorm there were claims that the plans for D&D Beyond were to charge everyone and not be the "GM pays/players free" setup that a lot of current VTTs go with.  IIRC, it was that things like character options and minis could not be shared by the GM and had to be paid for by the respective players; I don't think they were proposing that both the GM and the players would have to pay separately for an adventure module or things like that.

But that was from a leak and was not substantiated, and it's also possible they've altered course when the whole thing blew up on them.  We won't really know how they propose to monetize their system until it comes out.

Let's say they ONLY want the players to pay a subscription fee, let's say it's JUST 5 US Dollars/month, let's also say that subscription includes character options AND minis.

How much do I HAVE TO pay to roll20 RIGHT THE FUCK NOW? ZERO, if the group pitches in to pay for the GM's premium then we pay very little.

But WotC wants to charge the GM AND the players.

Now, how long until they decide that just charging you isn't enough? That they need to charge you an extra for character options and another for minis?

Unless the other VTTs are so stupid as to jump in the "lets charge EVERYONE!" bandwagon, I don't see how the purple haired weirdoes (who are almost all broke) will jump to that.

I agree, in general, but I think there is a large group that are "purple hair weirdo adjacent" that might pay. They people that hate on themselves for being white and male. Question is how large of a group that actually is.

And yes, WotC will monetize the living daylights out of this digital offering. Luring people in with generous free trials.

Quote from: daft on December 21, 2023, 01:26:02 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 20, 2023, 04:08:05 PM
...
But WotC wants to charge the GM AND the players.
...

...
And yes, WotC will monetize the living daylights out of this digital offering. Luring people in with generous free trials.

Personally, I think that this is how it will go:

- The One VTT will have a Basic tier that is free for players, just like roll20 etc,..

- The monetization will come in the form of Extras, that while "Not needed for play", will be pitched as very desirable.

Yes with the Basic tier you can make a character, but: "For a few bucks you can really customize the look of your PC with these bazillion options." And all the "optional" new hotness will be never-ending...

Yes the GM will pay a steady subscription, but the players will be Nickle and Dimed fifty cents here, one dollar there, and on and on... Totally optional, and not needed for play of course!

Lots of video games already do something very similar, and they rake in the cash.

There will also be some kind of marketplace for people to sell maps and adventures that they made for the VTT, from all of which Wotzi will get a healthy cut.

And while I expect to see lots of 'free trials' at the beginning; Once The VTT reaches a sufficient size, all the licenses from D&DBeyond that Wotzi has extended to other VTT's will stop getting renewed...

In a few years the OneVTT will become the one-stop-shop for all things "D&D", available No Place Else.

They only thing that remains to be seen is how much of the player base Wotzi will be able to flip into their walled garden.



For some reason this scene comes to mind:

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2023, 02:49:23 AM

Quote from: daft on December 21, 2023, 01:26:02 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 20, 2023, 04:08:05 PM
...
But WotC wants to charge the GM AND the players.
...

...
And yes, WotC will monetize the living daylights out of this digital offering. Luring people in with generous free trials.

Personally, I think that this is how it will go:

- The One VTT will have a Basic tier that is free for players, just like roll20 etc,..

- The monetization will come in the form of Extras, that while "Not needed for play", will be pitched as very desirable.

Yes with the Basic tier you can make a character, but: "For a few bucks you can really customize the look of your PC with these bazillion options." And all the "optional" new hotness will be never-ending...

Yes the GM will pay a steady subscription, but the players will be Nickle and Dimed fifty cents here, one dollar there, and on and on... Totally optional, and not needed for play of course!

Lots of video games already do something very similar, and they rake in the cash.

There will also be some kind of marketplace for people to sell maps and adventures that they made for the VTT, from all of which Wotzi will get a healthy cut.

And while I expect to see lots of 'free trials' at the beginning; Once The VTT reaches a sufficient size, all the licenses from D&DBeyond that Wotzi has extended to other VTT's will stop getting renewed...

In a few years the OneVTT will become the one-stop-shop for all things "D&D", available No Place Else.

They only thing that remains to be seen is how much of the player base Wotzi will be able to flip into their walled garden.



For some reason this scene comes to mind:

The other VTTs then switch to the retroclones and the CC BY SRD and give wotzi the finger. I mean you just create a character sheet for whatever retroclone is based of 1e, 2e, etc. and I can use it to play 2e, after all my group owns the books (because we're old grognards) so we don't need shit from wotzi.

Or better yet, create a character sheet the GM can easily customize by choosing what's in it from a series of menus, now you're not even remotelly legally liable for what my GM constructed for us to play with.

Most people don't even grasp the concept of a RPG that isn't D&D, much less a clone.

I have like 6-7 co-workers (all 20 somethings) who play D&D 5e and when I've mentioned other games to them, they get a deer in the headlights look. I brought up Shadowrun once and the only person who knew what I was talking about was the other Gen X guy (and he's still with the 2e rules for that, same as me actually).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 21, 2023, 02:59:19 AM
...
The other VTTs then switch to the retroclones and the CC BY SRD and give wotzi the finger. I mean you just create a character sheet for whatever retroclone is based of 1e, 2e, etc. and I can use it to play 2e, after all my group owns the books (because we're old grognards) so we don't need shit from wotzi.
...

They can surely do that. But the majority of the paying audience for all the other VTT's is also current year D&D.

Can they survive financially when their D&DBeyond licences expire, and a good portion of those folks move over to the new hotness from Wotzi?

We are going to find out!

In my opinion; There will be a contraction as a few of these alternate VTT's go under when the One VTT becomes the only place for current edition D&D.


And this is why:

Quote from: JeremyR on December 21, 2023, 03:56:16 AM
Most people don't even grasp the concept of a RPG that isn't D&D, much less a clone.

I have like 6-7 co-workers (all 20 somethings) who play D&D 5e and when I've mentioned other games to them, they get a deer in the headlights look. ...

This is the way the hobby has been since the beginning.

The overwhelming majority of people in RPG land only play the current edition of D&D. Period.

People like me are an outlier. If you are on this forum you are an outlier. We are rounding error's to D&D's dominance.

For me this hit home when a gaming friend brought me down to reality:

Me: "Dude, what are all these 5e D&D player crying about online? There are enough classes in the corebook for years of play. Why are they whining for more!?"

Them: "Because it isn't enough. They will never switch systems to take a break, or try something different from D&D. D&D is the only game that they will ever play."

Me: "Oh..."

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2023, 02:49:23 AM
For some reason this scene comes to mind:

"Ehh, One VTT is enough!" - WotC.

Quote from: JeremyR on December 21, 2023, 03:56:16 AM
Most people don't even grasp the concept of a RPG that isn't D&D, much less a clone.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2023, 01:29:25 PMThe overwhelming majority of people in RPG land only play the current edition of D&D. Period.

Indeed.

To GeekyBugle, the One VTT is a non-trap, and ridiculous. "Why would people pay for this when there are better, free options? But this is missing 2 key factors:

1) GeekyBugle is a gamer, in that he plays games. Most in the hobby are actually just D&D players, they lack the curiosity and mental flexibility to be gamers.

2) The power of branding.

"I love D&D! Shame it's so expensive though."

"Good news, there's an alternative, exactly the same, but free!"

"Why doesn't it say D&D on it?"

"Well it's a Clone. All of the mechanics are the same, just with different brandi..."

[The other person has logged out of the chat]

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 21, 2023, 01:38:32 PM

Quote from: JeremyR on December 21, 2023, 03:56:16 AM
Most people don't even grasp the concept of a RPG that isn't D&D, much less a clone.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2023, 01:29:25 PMThe overwhelming majority of people in RPG land only play the current edition of D&D. Period.

Indeed.

To GeekyBugle, the One VTT is a non-trap, and ridiculous. "Why would people pay for this when there are better, free options? But this is missing 2 key factors:

1) GeekyBugle is a gamer, in that he plays games. Most in the hobby are actually just D&D players, they lack the curiosity and mental flexibility to be gamers.

2) The power of branding.

"I love D&D! Shame it's so expensive though."

"Good news, there's an alternative, exactly the same, but free!"

"Why doesn't it say D&D on it?"

"Well it's a Clone. All of the mechanics are the same, just with different brandi..."

[The other person has logged out of the chat]

This is so sad. I don't like D&D all that much, but very hard to find games for other systems.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 21, 2023, 01:38:32 PM

Quote from: JeremyR on December 21, 2023, 03:56:16 AM
Most people don't even grasp the concept of a RPG that isn't D&D, much less a clone.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2023, 01:29:25 PMThe overwhelming majority of people in RPG land only play the current edition of D&D. Period.

Indeed.

To GeekyBugle, the One VTT is a non-trap, and ridiculous. "Why would people pay for this when there are better, free options? But this is missing 2 key factors:

1) GeekyBugle is a gamer, in that he plays games. Most in the hobby are actually just D&D players, they lack the curiosity and mental flexibility to be gamers.

2) The power of branding.

"I love D&D! Shame it's so expensive though."

"Good news, there's an alternative, exactly the same, but free!"

"Why doesn't it say D&D on it?"

"Well it's a Clone. All of the mechanics are the same, just with different brandi..."

[The other person has logged out of the chat]

That's true to a point, currently, as a player you can play for free on roll20, if your group pays for the GMs premium you pay very little each.

The One-VTT plans to charge everybody a subscription, let's say that it gives you (at first) access to character options, etc.
(This will cause a huge portion of the purple haired weirdoes and some normies to nope out)

How long before the leeches they hired from Microsoft decide they need to bleed the players more?
(This will cause even more players noping out)

Since everything is digital they'll keep editing it so the party is always right.
(This will cause some to also nope out)

It's an online only game, so, even if you play at home everybody needs to bring their own laptop, how much bandwith do you need to be able to play this shit at home with your friends?
(This will cause some to nope out from the word go, probably will still play 5e with their physical books if they have them tho)

What specs does your laptop need to be able to run it smoothly? Is it all on the server side? Either way this will cause issues and some will nope out due to that.

I'm not saying everybody that nopes out will land in the OSR (God forbid we get all the purple haired weirdoes here), but since the 5.1 SRD IS under CC By ANY VTT can use it, ergo they can have character sheets for that.

Given that WotZi won't have the One-VTT for the other editions of the game I doubt they're so stupid as to block the other VTTs from using those, but even if they do, Roll"0 can just use the rules from a retroclone on the backend and craft a character sheet or better yet design one the GM can easily customize to run whatever he wants.

Now let's talk assets:

Currently I can run a game without ANY battle map and with some tokens I made from the internet. I can also find suitable battle maps for free or dirt cheap.

How much will it cost you (if you even can) to have a custom 3d interactive map made? How about the "minis", bet you you'll only be able to buy those from them, a basic pack with your subscription but if you want more monsters or PC "minis" well pay up peasant! Same for the maps.

Now, the 5e player base plays mostly (or only) 5e, what about the GMs? Do they run other games besides D&D 5e? Dang your bad luck guy, now you have to pay for TWO VTT subscriptions.

It's the streaming service wars all over again, and Wotzi hopes the 3D + animation gimmick will convince enough people to make it worth their while... I bet it will, at least for a year or two, but remember "D&D is undermonetized" they need to deliver to the shareholders ever growing earnings quarter over quarter...

How long until they start with all the same sheananigans the AAA Vidya companies engage in? Microtransactions, loot boxes, etc.

On the long run they'll either have to open it to other non-D&D games to keep the growth (and even that won't be enough), or keep increasing the price for a shrinking ammount of goodies.

Freemium online games have microtransactions for cosmetics and unlocks, and they rake in billions of dollars a year.

Put up a basic-bitch VTT with the D&D brand, get Critical Role to feature it. The players arrive, and basic maps and characters are free. Have premium classes that cost a fee to unlock.

Weapon skins, weapon effects, clothing, armor skins, armor effects, spell effect coloring, base customization, race customization, etc etc. Each item between 99c and $5.

Then the GM needs a monthly fee for extra functions, plus they'll sell him maps and adventures.


Is the target audience broke weirdoes? Sure is, but these same broke weirdoes buy Starbucks and IPhones while being poor, they'll buy into this.


This VTT will further damage, and split the hobby, but (assuming it works, and doesn't take a supercomputer to run) will make a TON of money. At least till the nerd fad dies.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 21, 2023, 02:13:35 PM
...
The One-VTT plans to charge everybody a subscription, let's say that it gives you (at first) access to character options, etc.
(This will cause a huge portion of the purple haired weirdoes and some normies to nope out)

We don't know that for sure yet.

I would be very surprised if they don't do a roll20 model, and used "totally not needed for play" microtransactions for PC mini skins, and dice to milk the players.



Because this:

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 21, 2023, 04:05:49 PM
Freemium online games have microtransactions for cosmetics and unlocks, and they rake in billions of dollars a year.

Put up a basic-bitch VTT with the D&D brand, get Critical Role to feature it. The players arrive, and basic maps and characters are free. Have premium classes that cost a fee to unlock.

Weapon skins, weapon effects, clothing, armor skins, armor effects, spell effect coloring, base customization, race customization, etc etc. Each item between 99c and $5.

Then the GM needs a monthly fee for extra functions, plus they'll sell him maps and adventures.

Is the target audience broke weirdoes? Sure is, but these same broke weirdoes buy Starbucks and IPhones while being poor, they'll buy into this.

Eventually, I believe that they will become subject to the same market forces that have seen every edition of D&D, and even the big MMO's like WoW, slowly decline in sales. Much will also depend on how much they decide to poz it up in the interim as well.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 21, 2023, 04:05:49 PM
This VTT will further damage, and split the hobby, but (assuming it works, and doesn't take a supercomputer to run) will make a TON of money. At least till the nerd fad dies.

You say that as if it is a bad thing!?

First there were crpg video games, then Magic the gathering came along. Then MMO's got all up in the gaming space.

In each case they pulled away the casual "gamer" that brought no real value to actual table to play.

RPG's have always been a niche hobby. D&D's success has always been an outlier. And even if the VTT 'splits the hobby' - there are still many more people playing RPG's in general then there were even twenty years ago.

In my opinion; Wotzi's VTT shenanigans will be a big eye opener for some people. And that will be a good thing.

Will other RPG's ever have the same number of players as D&D? Fuck no. Not even close.

But wotzi's nonsense will open a few eyes to the difference between D&D, and the rest of the hobby. And in my opinion that will be a good thing for the RPG hobby in the long run.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2023, 04:28:35 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 21, 2023, 04:05:49 PM
This VTT will further damage, and split the hobby, but (assuming it works, and doesn't take a supercomputer to run) will make a TON of money. At least till the nerd fad dies.

You say that as if it is a bad thing!?

Oh not at all!

I've never been one of the people drinking the Kool-Aid, thinking the weirdoes and tourists inflating the hobby were going to discover the wider world of RPG's, and play good games.

ONE D&D can wall the freaks and degenerates off like Escape From New York, and I'll crack the champagne.

Here's the big revelation I had though: RPGs aren't coming back like we remember. I mean I know they were niche, but I foresee a hobby so niche that clubs will die out, and it will only survive in tiny pockets.

Why? Because digital RPGs are eating its lunch. Newer players want to use VTTs that handle character creation, calculate your dice rolls, hold your hand the whole way, even sat at a gaming table in person.

And that's just convenience. Soon VTTs will all have nice 3d environments, then comes Augmented Reality, then finally V.R. Who will want to sit playing CoC with dice and paper, when they can be the investigator talking to a virtual cultist, blasting Deep Ones with a virtual Tommy gun? An ultra-niche minority.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 22, 2023, 01:19:45 AM
Newer players want to use VTTs that handle character creation, calculate your dice rolls, hold your hand the whole way, even sat at a gaming table in person.

Interestingly, this hasn't been my experience with new players at all. Quite the opposite. Maybe I'm in a "pocket" -- of so, it's one of my own creation.

My guess is that if you spend all your time online, it will appear that everyone else does too.

Caveat: the popular method of trying to find "D&D players" I want to game with has never worked for me, whereas getting people who are already my friends to play in my old-school homebrews has never failed to keep me in a game.

Quote from: Zalman on December 22, 2023, 07:29:34 AM
Caveat: the popular method of trying to find "D&D players" I want to game with has never worked for me, whereas getting people who are already my friends to play in my old-school homebrews has never failed to keep me in a game.

Seconded, most strongly.  I'll even extend this to game networks of any kind.  The only time I got a stable group out of something other than network of friends and co-workers was putting up a sign up sheet in a FLGS.  That game was unusual, in that what I got signed up was an existing group entirely, whose GM had just been transferred out of state.  They all knew each other, of course, got along, and were open to whatever I wanted to run--not to mention inherently friendly.  Only thing that killed that game was me getting transferred a couple of years later.