Feel free to commence with the lesson.

Ah, sorry.  I thought you were high-centered on the "FASERIP" business -- most people are.  But, yeah, as far as the original superheroes game goes, Villains & Vigilantes is the earliest one that leaps to my mind.  But then I realise that it was preceded by Superhero 2044.

!i!

Then please allow me to change my stance to "the first good superhero game."

That would go to Champions but Villains and Viglantes had its fans as well. I might add that Champions is still a supported system while Marvel FASERIP is not.

So? MSH is still light years better than either.

Please note: this post and the one preceding it are pure opinion. I'll be happy to argue it with you, but will not be convinced.

Quote from: James McMurraySo? MSH is still light years better than either.

Please note: this post and the one preceding it are pure opinion. I'll be happy to argue it with you, but will not be convinced.

OK, I'll bite...what other supers games did you play, and why is Marvel better in your opinion.  I'll be especially interested in hearing the comparison between V&V and M&M, because those are my favorites.  In addition, I've played Champions, Golden Heroes, Marvel, DC (D6 version, not the Mayfair one), and have read a few indie ones, like Heart and Souls...so that's what I'm comparing it to.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAh, sorry.  I thought you were high-centered on the "FASERIP" business -- most people are.  But, yeah, as far as the original superheroes game goes, Villains & Vigilantes is the earliest one that leaps to my mind.  But then I realise that it was preceded by Superhero 2044.

!i!

That is correct, by the way.  It's also worth mentioning that 1st edition (V&V) wasn't very good (or playable) and 2nd edition is the one you want.  I was at a game convention, and Jeff Dee was there (inking for comics, not games) and I asked him to sign my (then out of date) 1st edition.  He said, "man, people still play that edition? It's unplayable!"  In any case, I never did play the 1rst edition, just the second, but I picked up the 1st edition there just to get him to autograph it...not really sure what I did with it,  I think I gave it to one of my old gaming friends, but, that was 22-23 years ago.

Quote from: grubmanOK, I'll bite...what other supers games did you play, and why is Marvel better in your opinion.  I'll be especially interested in hearing the comparison between V&V and M&M, because those are my favorites.  In addition, I've played Champions, Golden Heroes, Marvel, DC (D6 version, not the Mayfair one), and have read a few indie ones, like Heart and Souls...so that's what I'm comparing it to.

I've played Heroes Unlimited and had a brief encounter with Champions.  I think the biggest criticism against Marvel has been its random character creation.  The last person who GMed it, relied on character modeling which is included in the Advanced rules.  I like it because there's not a whole lot you need to remember to run it and even easier if you run the basic version.  I can't quite push for the Ultimate Powers book even though I'm probably one of the biggest fans for random character generation.

Quote from: James McMurraySo? MSH is still light years better than either.

Please note: this post and the one preceding it are pure opinion. I'll be happy to argue it with you, but will not be convinced.

I would accept that FASERIP is the first superhero game you liked. But by sales and number of players Champions is the defining game of early superhero RPGs. Marvel Superheroes was one of the best in the 2nd generation of superhero games.

Champions endures today  while FASERIP is the province of dedicated hobbyists.   Of course today we have Mutant and Mastermind as a strong contender and probably occupies the #1 spot in terms of players and sales. The same situation that Marvel Superheroes was in the middle to late 80s.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'll be happy to argue it with you, but will not be convinced.

Of course you won't be convinced. FASERIP is fundamentally different system than Champion. That like trying to compare Avalon Hill's Tactics (wargame) to Squad Leader or Star Fleet Battles. They are all wargames but have different groups that are interested behind them.

The advantage of Champions is that as a rules system you can accurately gauge the relative merit of different powers. It rules allow you to define ANY type of power and judge it against another power.  

This has to do with the attitude of players toward rules. Roll the dice and make it up versus I can move 5 hex, he is six hexes away DAMN! I can't hit him. Each appeals to different types of players.

Also FASERIP has the factor of the Marvel License which is a powerful pull.

In the end convincing you that champions is superior depends on your interest. If you like RPGs that lie on the wargaming side then Champions is a superior set of rules. If you don't then you are right where you need to be with FASERIP.

Quote from: grubmanOK, I'll bite...what other supers games did you play, and why is Marvel better in your opinion.  I'll be especially interested in hearing the comparison between V&V and M&M, because those are my favorites.  In addition, I've played Champions, Golden Heroes, Marvel, DC (D6 version, not the Mayfair one), and have read a few indie ones, like Heart and Souls...so that's what I'm comparing it to.

I've played few supers games, but read many. Overall the simplicity, universal usability, ease of use, and integral focus on heroism is what puts MSH on top in my mind. It doesn't hurt that it's also completely and legally free, and is the only game I've ever seen that stats out damn near everyone of importance in the Marvel universe (the only comic universe I enjoy in huge chunks).

Quote from: estarI would accept that FASERIP is the first superhero game you liked. But by sales and number of players Champions is the defining game of early superhero RPGs. Marvel Superheroes was one of the best in the 2nd generation of superhero games.

Sales numbers do not equate to better, otherwise there would be little point in every playing a fantasy RPG beyond D&D, and everyone would go straight to WW for their modern horror needs.

Quote from: estarOf course you won't be convinced. FASERIP is fundamentally different system than Champion. That like trying to compare Avalon Hill's Tactics (wargame) to Squad Leader or Star Fleet Battles. They are all wargames but have different groups that are interested behind them.

Easy. SFB every time.

QuoteIn the end convincing you that champions is superior depends on your interest. If you like RPGs that lie on the wargaming side then Champions is a superior set of rules. If you don't then you are right where you need to be with FASERIP.

You'd think, but I'm a wargamer at heart.

Quote from: James McMurrayI've played few supers games, but read many. Overall the simplicity, universal usability, ease of use, and integral focus on heroism is what puts MSH on top in my mind. It doesn't hurt that it's also completely and legally free, and is the only game I've ever seen that stats out damn near everyone of importance in the Marvel universe (the only comic universe I enjoy in huge chunks).

So, what do you think of Mutants & Masterminds?  It's pretty much the grandaddy of Supers now.  It's very well done and complete.  You can make any type of super you want and while character creation is very involved, it is pretty simple in play and really captures the genre well.

Quote from: James McMurrayEasy. SFB every time.



You'd think, but I'm a wargamer at heart.

Ye gods if you are a SFB fan then what is the issue with Champions/Hero System? The complexity of the system should be a piece of cake for you. It has a ton more options than Marvel Super Heroes.