Apologies for the necropost, but this is something I've been thinking about lately too. I figured it's better to bring back the same topic than make a duplicate.

I think the answer might lie in whether you think Lovecraft was endorsing the themes of the Cthulhu Mythos or warning against them. There are people who argue Nietzsche's philosophy was a warning against nihilism, not an endorsement of it, but just like with him, it's not very clear where Lovecraft stood. He clearly agreed with some of the themes of the Mythos in relation to reality, but clearly opposed others.

There are certainly many SJWs and similar types enamored with Lovecraft's work, and certainly many seem to hold the themes of the Mythos, especially the concepts of an uncaring, disorderly universe, the lack of a God or Gods and the invalidity of religion, and materialist philosophy as being true. Lovecraft's disdain of religion seems to especially be a common thing such fans will talk about smugly, "In the Cthulhu universe there is no God, just like real life." Etc.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Cthulhu Mythos as far as morality goes. I certainly disagree with most of Lovecraft's ideas. That said, the Mythos has just never interested me much to begin with. I've always found the cosmic nihilism more annoying than frightening or engaging, and too much of it feels more like a genre of alien or science fiction horror, which I'm also not really into.

I like Call of Cthulhu the game well enough, but I've never used the Cthulhu Mythos for it and don't have any interest ever doing so.

Quote from: Validin on April 12, 2023, 05:55:43 PMThere are people who argue Nietzsche's philosophy was a warning against nihilism, not an endorsement of it, but just like with him, it's not very clear where Lovecraft stood.

Connecting Nietzsche to Nihilism is nonsensical. The guy writes about a rise of Nihilism, and how everyone has to become the best version of themselves in order to combat it, and people call him a Nihilist. It's like saying Gandhi was a bloodthirsty warrior.

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Connecting Nietzsche to Nihilism is nonsensical. The guy writes about a rise of Nihilism, and how everyone has to become the best version of themselves in order to combat it, and people call him a Nihilist.

The problem is Good Old Fritz basically give no good reason to fight nihilism aside of his own - utterly contradictory to own nature ironically - aesthetic preferences of ancient pagan heroism.
There is no any underlying metaphysics that would really go anti-nihilism, merely emotional drive to do so. Sort of like heroic existentialism - putting human heroic delusion about uncaring reality, and applying to pathos and poetry rather than actual rational reality-scrutiny.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 16, 2023, 08:04:16 AM

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Connecting Nietzsche to Nihilism is nonsensical. The guy writes about a rise of Nihilism, and how everyone has to become the best version of themselves in order to combat it, and people call him a Nihilist.

The problem is Good Old Fritz basically give no good reason to fight nihilism aside of his own - utterly contradictory to own nature ironically - aesthetic preferences of ancient pagan heroism.
There is no any underlying metaphysics that would really go anti-nihilism, merely emotional drive to do so. Sort of like heroic existentialism - putting human heroic delusion about uncaring reality, and applying to pathos and poetry rather than actual rational reality-scrutiny.

I don't see why it needs to be spoon-fed. It's like the Meaning Of Life, we actually make our own meaning.

Why be your best self, and fight nihilism? Because being a wretch that lives surrounded by misery isn't very pleasant. As simple a thing as enlightened self-interest.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on March 01, 2022, 03:06:06 PM

As for "always more energy," let me quote some Asimov to you, from "The Last Question", since he says it better than I can:

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You're thinking we'll switch to an- other sun when ours is done, aren't you?"

"I'm not thinking."

"Sure you are. You're weak on logic; that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower, and who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried. You see, he figured that when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one."

"I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too."

"Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was; and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last twenty billion years, and maybe the dwarfs will last a hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all."

Except that this has a Gross Conceptual Error in it.

Star formation and then destruction is a cyclic process where one feeds into the other.

Plus, we can colonize Black Holes in the far far future.....Of course, by the time we will be able to do this, humanity itself may be the Lovecraftian Horrors.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 16, 2023, 12:12:45 PMI don't see why it needs to be spoon-fed.

"I am filled with existential dread"
"Don't be."
"Wow what brilliant philosophical insights"

The man is distasteful enough for me for other reasons, and his works are mostly just disconnected rambling, but "Just shut up" is not an example of deep insight. I mean it works well enough for his worldview (a sick one in my opinion), but its not gonna get anybody to sign up who wasn't already basically a believer in the first place.

Let me roll it back to point out all I said was Nietzsche wasn't a nihilist, or a promoter of nihilism. I have no desire to enter in to a pissing contest with people who take issue with the man or anything he did say or promote.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 16, 2023, 02:12:27 PM
Let me roll it back to point out all I said was Nietzsche wasn't a nihilist, or a promoter of nihilism. I have no desire to enter in to a pissing contest with people who take issue with the man or anything he did say or promote.

Agreed on both fronts.

QuoteI don't see why it needs to be spoon-fed. It's like the Meaning Of Life, we actually make our own meaning.

Why be your best self, and fight nihilism? Because being a wretch that lives surrounded by misery isn't very pleasant. As simple a thing as enlightened self-interest.

That changes nothing - metaphysics always trump ethics. If nothing actually matters, then nothing matters.
So like heroic existentialism it's kinda school of glorious delusion.

Like you can hate ontological nihilism - but still profess it. That sounds precisely like FN to me, maybe that's why he get insane.

QuoteExcept that this has a Gross Conceptual Error in it.

Star formation and then destruction is a cyclic process where one feeds into the other.

Plus, we can colonize Black Holes in the far far future.....Of course, by the time we will be able to do this, humanity itself may be the Lovecraftian Horrors.

It is correct, though it does not change general doom coming from Second Rule of Thermondynamic. With each cycle entropy keeps growing. Finally cycles shall stop (if our understanding of physics is correct).

QuoteIt is correct, though it does not change general doom coming from Second Rule of Thermondynamic. With each cycle entropy keeps growing. Finally cycles shall stop (if our understanding of physics is correct).

Reading the summaries of some recent physics papers it sounds like we may not quite have as a clear an understanding of physics as we think we do. Lots of observations from the newer telescopes are returning results that just don't fit what the models say they should... which means those models have some errors or might even be entirely wrong (the science was settled on the sun orbiting the Earth... until it wasn't).

For all we know we'll discover some whackiness we've never even considered that throws all our presumptions into the dustbin.

Like, what happens if another Big Bang-ish vacuum fluctuation happens within our spacetime introducing a whole new slew of energy and lighter elements into the universe such that the nature of the universe just keeps throwing more logs onto the fire every time it starts to dim?

And if you're Christian you've got the whole New Heavens and New Earth deal implying entry into a whole new dimension of spacetime.

We just don't know and it's practically ludicrous that we pretend we're anywhere close to figuring out how the cosmos actually functions given how poorly reality seems interest in agreeing with the standard models.