I was thinking about that sandbox/world in motion topic I had lately. It was about plot point campaigns and eventually moved into the sandbox or not territory. On thing that makes sanbox really good is the "world in motion". It increases immersion.

Now I am still playing the new world of darkness games and I have to admit I get more "world in motion" out of the old world of darkness, because of metaplot. Despite the metaplot probably gets lumbed into the same category as railroading. I liked the fact I knew which sects controlled which parts of the world and which clans came from which country and had their powerbase there. It felt like stuff was moving without the players being involved. The new world feels more like a city exists in a vacuum.

Anyone has any ideas about this?

That's how I prefer to do long sandboxes - a general plot with several arcs that the PCs can interact with or ignore, as they wish.

Short sandboxes can be of the "I want to go there and see what is there" variety, for me, but eventually I want something more from the game.

Metaplot = (world in motion) - (player agency)

Quote from: soltakss;743820That's how I prefer to do long sandboxes - a general plot with several arcs that the PCs can interact with or ignore, as they wish.

But not really change to any significant degree? That's what I think of when I read 'metaplot'... a built in ending that can't really be altered... because it's a 'plot'... not a 'situation'.

Quote from: The Butcher;743823Metaplot = (world in motion) - (player agency)

Yes, that's what it ought to mean to one's own campaign. The words on the page are just that: words on a page.

Quote from: The Butcher;743823Metaplot = (world in motion) - (player agency)

God, this is concise. I like it.

How do you do the "world"? Do you just stick to a city?

I have to admit that the city books (both old and new) create a (political) city in motion. But in the old games it was embedded into a world in which also shit happened.

I prefer NWoD because things change via player actions and the composition of the world is up to me. For example I could excise vampires entirely and it wouldn't wreck the game if I wanted.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;743829God, this is concise. I like it.

How do you do the "world"? Do you just stick to a city?

I have to admit that the city books (both old and new) create a (political) city in motion. But in the old games it was embedded into a world in which also shit happened.

"Metaplot" to me means "Luke Skywalker will fight Darth Vader, who will then kill the Emperor.  NOTHING the players do will, or can, alter that."

Of course, it's a big galaxy, and in the Tapani Sector, Dahail Sunfire, first of the New Republic Jedi, was much more famous than that Skywalker kid.

Quote from: Old Geezer;743840"Metaplot" to me means "Luke Skywalker will fight Darth Vader, who will then kill the Emperor.  NOTHING the players do will, or can, alter that."

Of course, it's a big galaxy, and in the Tapani Sector, Dahail Sunfire, first of the New Republic Jedi, was much more famous than that Skywalker kid.

Yeah, I think you are right. If that is what metaplot is, than I think I don't miss metaplot. I miss some worldbuilding.

I like kitchen sink stuff. Big settings, lot's of regions/area's/planets to explore, lot's of different organisations doing their own thing, that kind of stuff. Basicly like your run of the mill kitchen sink fantasy setting.

I find it easy to imagine what different splats are doing in SW Hellfrost for example, while my players are doing something else. If my players are looting some dungeon in the forest region of the world, some knights might be fighting frost giants in the mountain area. The other way around if my players are fighting the frost giants, then some other relic hunters might be looting that dungeon at the same time.

I don't get that from the new wod. I seems to me nothing would happen at all in that world if my players aren't doing something. Which is a problem, because of a lack of immersion.

Metaplot be damned or maybe not?

Yes, this exactly, so that the players could follow that, or just strike out on their own tangent if that makes them happy; then the metaplot is just a thing that happened.

Quote from: dragoner;743848Metaplot be damned or maybe not?

Yes, this exactly, so that the players could follow that, or just strike out on their own tangent if that makes them happy; then the metaplot is just a thing that happened.

Right.  I don't think metaplot is necessarily bad, as long as there's plenty of room for the players to be cool.  I mean, you could play an entire "smugglers' war" version of Star Wars where the entire Rebellion/Empire conflict is merely the background, and you don't give a shit except to make sure whoever you're running guns to pays in full on time, and that you get there before Bakka's Gang.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;743847Yeah, I think you are right. If that is what metaplot is, than I think I don't miss metaplot. I miss some worldbuilding.

I like kitchen sink stuff. Big settings, lot's of regions/area's/planets to explore, lot's of different organisations doing their own thing, that kind of stuff. Basicly like your run of the mill kitchen sink fantasy setting.

I find it easy to imagine what different splats are doing in SW Hellfrost for example, while my players are doing something else. If my players are looting some dungeon in the forest region of the world, some knights might be fighting frost giants in the mountain area. The other way around if my players are fighting the frost giants, then some other relic hunters might be looting that dungeon at the same time.

I don't get that from the new wod. I seems to me nothing would happen at all in that world if my players aren't doing something. Which is a problem, because of a lack of immersion.

I don't agree it's quite simple vampires are where the people are as are Uratha to a lesser degree while Mages and to a lesser degree Hunters are where the supernatural and weirdness are. Then you populate with the appropriate orders, clans, tribes etc. leaving some out if appropriate and so on.

Well metaplot as as the stuff going on in the background is fairly common in campaigns I have seen or DMed. Usually its just news of so-n-so doing this-n-that to these-n-those.

Sometimes its stuff the players didnt act on doing what it will since no one has oppose them.

This can be usefull for later as say the necromancer the players couldnt be bothered to dither with way back at the start now has a large army of skeletons and is expanding his domain.

Or the beggar the players helped later shows up with a useful bit of info he overheard in the city to repay the kindness.

As opposed to the PCs existing in a near vacuum if quest-kill-loot-quest.

Quote from: Omega;743855Well metaplot as as the stuff going on in the background is fairly common in campaigns I have seen or DMed. Usually its just news of so-n-so doing this-n-that to these-n-those.

Sometimes its stuff the players didnt act on doing what it will since no one has oppose them.

This can be usefull for later as say the necromancer the players couldnt be bothered to dither with way back at the start now has a large army of skeletons and is expanding his domain.

Or the beggar the players helped later shows up with a useful bit of info he overheard in the city to repay the kindness.

As opposed to the PCs existing in a near vacuum if quest-kill-loot-quest.

That isn't metaplot that's just world in motion. NWoD is specifically built for this playstyle.

Quote from: Marleycat;743852I don't agree it's quite simple vampires are where the people are as are Uratha to a lesser degree while Mages and to a lesser degree Hunters are where the supernatural and weirdness are. Then you populate with the appropriate orders, clans, tribes etc. leaving some out if appropriate and so on.

I think I meant canon. I like some canon. In the old games you knew the Assamites were big in the Middle-East so a regime there would be different from your default European or North-American Camarilla city. You knew the Lasombra have a bigger presence in Spain than in Hong Kong. Just like you have fantasy setting with area's you know there is an undead lord in charge for more than a century now. I like that.