Quote from: RNGm on March 18, 2024, 12:39:09 PM
Does having a mechanic where you can modify either the environment or your action's results with an expendable resoure make a game "storygame trash" just by itself?  I'm referring to things like fate/hero/karma/whatever points that allow for things like rerolls or for you to change the encounters some small way directly like by introducing minor details or objects to use on the fly.  Does the answer depend on which subgenre the game belongs to in the traditional RPG space (specifically NOT explicitly "narrative" games) like for example doing it in a high fantasy/high magic game vs a grimdark low fantasy one?  Or does simply being able to spend a point to alter the skein of fate by changing a miss to potentially a hit or add an item to the environment make the game "narrative" in and of itself?  Does the answer depend on whether you're modifying (after the fact) a player's own action versus pre-emptively altering the environment?

For me, the answer is definitely yes: a mechanic that allows players to modify environment or results falls on the "storygame, not interested" side of the tracks for me.

That's not to say meta-currency in general is a deal-breaker for me, so long as that currency can only be used to enhance your own character's actions. In this case, before or after does matter to me as well: spending meta-currency before the roll is fine, spending it after the roll is tantamount to "modifying results", and not fun for me.

Quote from: Zalman on March 18, 2024, 01:20:19 PM

Quote from: RNGm on March 18, 2024, 12:39:09 PM
Does having a mechanic where you can modify either the environment or your action's results with an expendable resoure make a game "storygame trash" just by itself?  I'm referring to things like fate/hero/karma/whatever points that allow for things like rerolls or for you to change the encounters some small way directly like by introducing minor details or objects to use on the fly.  Does the answer depend on which subgenre the game belongs to in the traditional RPG space (specifically NOT explicitly "narrative" games) like for example doing it in a high fantasy/high magic game vs a grimdark low fantasy one?  Or does simply being able to spend a point to alter the skein of fate by changing a miss to potentially a hit or add an item to the environment make the game "narrative" in and of itself?  Does the answer depend on whether you're modifying (after the fact) a player's own action versus pre-emptively altering the environment?

For me, the answer is definitely yes: a mechanic that allows players to modify environment or results falls on the "storygame, not interested" side of the tracks for me.

That's not to say meta-currency in general is a deal-breaker for me, so long as that currency can only be used to enhance your own character's actions. In this case, before or after does matter to me as well: spending meta-currency before the roll is fine, spending it after the roll is tantamount to "modifying results", and not fun for me.

That definition puts Savage Worlds under the header of story game and I'm pretty sure Tenbones would have words about that sentiment.

I would argue a lot depends on whether you're trying to emulate a setting or emulate a genre. The Pulp genre that Savage World's emulates probably the best is full of near disasters turned around by fate or happenstance. Hell, the shorts  of that era practically ran on setting up a scene of total failure only to watch next week as some fluke or something that had been deliberately omitted from the camera shot last week allows the hero to overcome certain doom.

That genre aspect just can't be effectively modeled with a determinalistic setting where all possibilities are accounted for before the dice are rolled. Okay, you could do it, but sorta like using D&D 3.5e on a 5' grid for mecha combat... it's a poor emulation compared to a system purpose-built for the genre.

For Pulp, I'd argue that Bennies are probably the best mechanical way to represent that ebb and flow of fortune... it did look like the PCs were plunging to certain doom aboard the train, but a few Bennies later it turns out they actually escaped in the knick of time.

WEG needs its CP and Force Points to keep the PCs from being ignominiously splattered before they even made to the Tantive's escape pods. 5D blaster rifle vs. 3D strength is a bad day without some CP to up that dodge or the soak. People play to feel like Han, Luke or Leia, not generic hallway rebel number seven (and I forget what the official rules said, but every group I ever played with let you burn CP after you rolled; they're too important to character advancement to require them to be spent before you rolled).

Neither of those are remotely story games, so I suspect the definition requires something else beyond metacurrency to alter results for that tag to actually apply.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2024, 03:10:19 PMI would argue a lot depends on whether you're trying to emulate a setting or emulate a genre. The Pulp genre that Savage World's emulates probably the best is full of near disasters turned around by fate or happenstance. Hell, the shorts  of that era practically ran on setting up a scene of total failure only to watch next week as some fluke or something that had been deliberately omitted from the camera shot last week allows the hero to overcome certain doom.

That genre aspect just can't be effectively modeled with a determinalistic setting where all possibilities are accounted for before the dice are rolled. Okay, you could do it, but sorta like using D&D 3.5e on a 5' grid for mecha combat... it's a poor emulation compared to a system purpose-built for the genre.

For Pulp, I'd argue that Bennies are probably the best mechanical way to represent that ebb and flow of fortune... it did look like the PCs were plunging to certain doom aboard the train, but a few Bennies later it turns out they actually escaped in the knick of time.

WEG needs its CP and Force Points to keep the PCs from being ignominiously splattered before they even made to the Tantive's escape pods. 5D blaster rifle vs. 3D strength is a bad day without some CP to up that dodge or the soak. People play to feel like Han, Luke or Leia, not generic hallway rebel number seven (and I forget what the official rules said, but every group I ever played with let you burn CP after you rolled; they're too important to character advancement to require them to be spent before you rolled).

I'd argue that those sorts of points only exist because the game mechanics fail to properly represent the genre they are supposed to emulate. For pulp, the survival of a seemingly hopeless situation at the end of an adventure is really just a story element that can easily be handled by the GM. As for Star Wars, the need for Force Points is only because the game system is too lethal for the setting. Stormtroopers should miss the heroes without the players needed to spend out-of-character resources to make that happen.

It's a similar situation for a narrative device that lets a player change the game world. For this to work, the item changed has to be plausible. And if it plausible, then the GM could just say that, yes, there is a handy object nearby to do what you need. These devices always work to the opposite to their supposed goal. If the goal for a Hero Point is to allow for the hero to find a improbable way out of a situation, then the mere presence of Hero Points means that the GM can never let a player have that improbably object without the expenditure of said point. Thus, these situations will only happen when the player spends those points and, thus, becomes less common than they otherwise would have been.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2024, 03:10:19 PM
That definition puts Savage Worlds under the header of story game and I'm pretty sure Tenbones would have words about that sentiment.

The first game to use them was Victory Games' James Bond 007 RPG, in 1980.  Up to and including narrative editing of the scene/environment.  Is that storygame trash now too, I wonder?

Quote
I'd argue that those sorts of points only exist because the game mechanics fail to properly represent the genre they are supposed to emulate.

Pretty much, but remember you're on a board that thinks that OD&D was the zenith of game design.

Quote from: Zalman on March 18, 2024, 01:20:19 PM

Quote from: RNGm on March 18, 2024, 12:39:09 PM
Does having a mechanic where you can modify either the environment or your action's results with an expendable resoure make a game "storygame trash" just by itself?  I'm referring to things like fate/hero/karma/whatever points that allow for things like rerolls or for you to change the encounters some small way directly like by introducing minor details or objects to use on the fly.

For me, the answer is definitely yes: a mechanic that allows players to modify environment or results falls on the "storygame, not interested" side of the tracks for me.

That's not to say meta-currency in general is a deal-breaker for me, so long as that currency can only be used to enhance your own character's actions. In this case, before or after does matter to me as well: spending meta-currency before the roll is fine, spending it after the roll is tantamount to "modifying results", and not fun for me.

I get that it's not to your taste, Zalman, but would you say that games like Savage Worlds or the James Bond 007 RPG are "storygame trash" because they have spend-after currency and (for 007) minorly changing the environment? (as others have noted)

In Pundit's video, he goes off on story gaming as if it's some grievous new outrage of SJWs, but storytelling language and influence has been around in the hobby since nearly the beginning, and there were plenty of explicitly storytelling RPGs in the 1980s. They're not to everyone's taste, but it's blatantly ignoring RPG history if one starts with Powered-by-the-Apocalypse as the start of storytelling influence in RPGs.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2024, 03:16:55 PM
It's a similar situation for a narrative device that lets a player change the game world. For this to work, the item changed has to be plausible. And if it plausible, then the GM could just say that, yes, there is a handy object nearby to do what you need. These devices always work to the opposite to their supposed goal. If the goal for a Hero Point is to allow for the hero to find a improbable way out of a situation, then the mere presence of Hero Points means that the GM can never let a player have that improbably object without the expenditure of said point. Thus, these situations will only happen when the player spends those points and, thus, becomes less common than they otherwise would have been.

I suppose it would depend on your definition of plausible.  I've had players ask for items they need on the fly and instead given them a path to the items when it was appropriate; for example, like looking for a mop or broom handle in a building lobby and I tell them none are visible but there is what looks to be from the signage to be a janitors closet down the hall that they might be able to break into with a distraction.  Initially the player hoped that a lazy or forgetful janitor left a mop and bucket conveniently in the corner of the room for them to use and I said no; I don't believe that was too harsh or displaying a lack of creativity on my part to say no initially.  If it had been a game with this type of mechanic and the player wanted to spend a point, I'd say *poof* sure there is.   I don't view that as "story game" or narrative personally.   Narrative/Story Game would be the player coming up with the whole scenario on their own without my input and then just looking to me for permission (or worse yet to add onto it in a game with round robin narration).  Same would go with looking for a letter opener in an office desk (no point required) versus just finding one on the counter at the front of the office (point required)... or finding a loose stone in a dungeon cell to allow communication/coordination with the next one over as opposed to spending the time and effort to dig it out.   

I think there is wiggle room for both to exist without the need to label a game as some sort of story time game trash personally.  On the flip side, I wouldn't want that type of mechanic in an old school/OSR feeling game or a gritty grimdark game though because I don't think it fits the expectations in those niches.

Quote from: daniel_ream on March 18, 2024, 03:45:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2024, 03:10:19 PM
That definition puts Savage Worlds under the header of story game and I'm pretty sure Tenbones would have words about that sentiment.

The first game to use them was Victory Games' James Bond 007 RPG, in 1980.  Up to and including narrative editing of the scene/environment.  Is that storygame trash now too, I wonder?

Quote
I'd argue that those sorts of points only exist because the game mechanics fail to properly represent the genre they are supposed to emulate.

Pretty much, but remember you're on a board that thinks that OD&D was the zenith of game design.

Greetings!

Yes. Well, there are some members here that do not worship OD&D as the zenith of game design.

My friends and I left fucking OD&D behind way back when AD&D came out. Since the beginning of OD&D, there have been many improvements in game design.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't consider the storygame form to be trash. I have played and enjoyed them from time to time. Its just that the narrative style of play doesn't scratch the same itch as a traditional rpg does for me. I can have a good time with story game one shots but I don't think I could do a whole campaign.

I can also still enjoy OD&D with some customization for what it is. I find RAW AD&D to be a bit too fiddly as an old man. Classic D&D 9B/X) with some additional material is the sweet spot for me.

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2024, 03:56:28 PM
In Pundit's video, he goes off on story gaming as if it's some grievous new outrage of SJWs, but storytelling language and influence has been around in the hobby since nearly the beginning, and there were plenty of explicitly storytelling RPGs in the 1980s. They're not to everyone's taste, but it's blatantly ignoring RPG history if one starts with Powered-by-the-Apocalypse as the start of storytelling influence in RPGs.

I think it more has to do with how the two have acted oddly similar and used very similar disinformation tactics. And there were storygamers pushing SJW agendas early on before they fill by the wayside.

There are alot of RPGs that use mechanics storygamers have claimed and twisted out of shape. But are not themselves storygames just because they had those elements. Its like people who keep claiming the old Dragonlance modules are storygames just because they have things like timed elements and so on.

Storygamers as the problem and infestation push a different agenda and use alot of concocted magic words like "the Fiction" and "the Narrative" and "Magic Tea Party" and "Mother May I" and relentlessly tried to subvert RPGs and still do to this day.

Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2024, 09:15:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2024, 03:56:28 PM
In Pundit's video, he goes off on story gaming as if it's some grievous new outrage of SJWs, but storytelling language and influence has been around in the hobby since nearly the beginning, and there were plenty of explicitly storytelling RPGs in the 1980s. They're not to everyone's taste, but it's blatantly ignoring RPG history if one starts with Powered-by-the-Apocalypse as the start of storytelling influence in RPGs.

I think it more has to do with how the two have acted oddly similar and used very similar disinformation tactics. And there were storygamers pushing SJW agendas early on before they fill by the wayside.

There are alot of RPGs that use mechanics storygamers have claimed and twisted out of shape. But are not themselves storygames just because they had those elements. Its like people who keep claiming the old Dragonlance modules are storygames just because they have things like timed elements and so on.

Storygamers as the problem and infestation push a different agenda and use alot of concocted magic words like "the Fiction" and "the Narrative" and "Magic Tea Party" and "Mother May I" and relentlessly tried to subvert RPGs and still do to this day.

Yep, this right here.  Just because you have a single mechanic (usually well-gatekept) doesn't mean it's a storygame.  Hero points, fate points, bennies, karma, etc., as originally used all have very limited numbers and pretty severe penalties or trade-offs (karma acts as experience points, too, so you don't want to use it willy-nilly).  You're aren't expected to use them as a normal and prevalent mechanic; they are for emergencies.  Storygames expect such mechanics to be a normal part of the game.  That's the difference.  But, of course, the usual suspects are incapable of nuance when it comes to arguments they don't like, and see nothing but nuance in their own arguments...

Oh, and P.S., I downloaded the Daggerheart beta.  It's storygame trash.  And it doesn't have advantage/disadvantage... more like SotDL's boons and banes, just renamed...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 18, 2024, 09:35:31 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2024, 09:15:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2024, 03:56:28 PM
In Pundit's video, he goes off on story gaming as if it's some grievous new outrage of SJWs, but storytelling language and influence has been around in the hobby since nearly the beginning, and there were plenty of explicitly storytelling RPGs in the 1980s. They're not to everyone's taste, but it's blatantly ignoring RPG history if one starts with Powered-by-the-Apocalypse as the start of storytelling influence in RPGs.

I think it more has to do with how the two have acted oddly similar and used very similar disinformation tactics. And there were storygamers pushing SJW agendas early on before they fill by the wayside.

There are alot of RPGs that use mechanics storygamers have claimed and twisted out of shape. But are not themselves storygames just because they had those elements. Its like people who keep claiming the old Dragonlance modules are storygames just because they have things like timed elements and so on.

Storygamers as the problem and infestation push a different agenda and use alot of concocted magic words like "the Fiction" and "the Narrative" and "Magic Tea Party" and "Mother May I" and relentlessly tried to subvert RPGs and still do to this day.

Yep, this right here.  Just because you have a single mechanic (usually well-gatekept) doesn't mean it's a storygame.  Hero points, fate points, bennies, karma, etc., as originally used all have very limited numbers and pretty severe penalties or trade-offs (karma acts as experience points, too, so you don't want to use it willy-nilly).  You're aren't expected to use them as a normal and prevalent mechanic; they are for emergencies.  Storygames expect such mechanics to be a normal part of the game.  That's the difference.  But, of course, the usual suspects are incapable of nuance when it comes to arguments they don't like, and see nothing but nuance in their own arguments...

Oh, and P.S., I downloaded the Daggerheart beta.  It's storygame trash.  And it doesn't have advantage/disadvantage... more like SotDL's boons and banes, just renamed...

Greetings!

"Storygame Trash!" *Laughing* Yes, indeed, my friend!

And also, Nyahh Nyahh, Nyahh! I didn't download that fucking trash game! *Laughing*

Yes, between Pundit's review of it, and DD's review of it, Daggerheart is total storygame trash. It amazes me how these people even think they have talent as writers and designers.

Can you imagine playing in a group of these people, with a storygame GM? It boggles my mind what exactly they get done, how they even go about it, and from all the jello rules and stuffed animal toys, why they would find such a game fun?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I didn't know what "storygaming" was until viewing this video.  Now I understand it as a glorified version of a campfire story, where you tell part of a story and pass it to the next person to continue where you left off.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on March 18, 2024, 11:44:48 PM
I didn't know what "storygaming" was until viewing this video.  Now I understand it as a glorified version of a campfire story, where you tell part of a story and pass it to the next person to continue where you left off.

That's why I've called it for years here "Sharing the Speaking Stick." It's about everyone getting a chance to be the World Narrator, often and regularly.

And no sir, I don't like it. So I don't buy it or run it or give it the time of day anymore, let alone download it.

So as for this new Critical Role darling, DaggerHeart, flirting with OLD IDEAS that I've already tried and disliked? Been there, done that, rolled my eyes at it. Next! 

Quote from: Opaopajr on March 18, 2024, 11:53:46 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on March 18, 2024, 11:44:48 PM
I didn't know what "storygaming" was until viewing this video.  Now I understand it as a glorified version of a campfire story, where you tell part of a story and pass it to the next person to continue where you left off.

That's why I've called it for years here "Sharing the Speaking Stick." It's about everyone getting a chance to be the World Narrator, often and regularly.

And no sir, I don't like it. So I don't buy it or run it or give it the time of day anymore, let alone download it.

So as for this new Critical Role darling, DaggerHeart, flirting with OLD IDEAS that I've already tried and disliked? Been there, done that, rolled my eyes at it. Next! 

Greetings!

Yep, my friend! Exactly!

Like Pundit said, I guess Storygames are a kind of game, very different from TTRPG's, and certainly inferior to TTRPG's.

I agree with that. And, like you said, "Sharing the Speaking Stick!" *Laughing*

I'm still wondering how these people actually play these games, and how do they accomplish anything meaningful? How is this...kind of game--even any fun, really?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Cathode Ray on March 18, 2024, 11:44:48 PM
I didn't know what "storygaming" was until viewing this video.  Now I understand it as a glorified version of a campfire story, where you tell part of a story and pass it to the next person to continue where you left off.

So basically similar to fan-fiction? 

Might as well just write fan-fiction at that point...