Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

Greetings!

Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

What do you think about that, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 05, 2024, 08:12:09 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

Greetings!

Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

What do you think about that, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Basically, I'm all about the epic struggle between good and evil.  I don't care for morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in my rpgs.  The real world has too much of that.  I like playing good characters that actively destroy evil and take their stuff.  When I write stuff, there are sometimes factions, but usually different evil factions, all of whom should be put down sooner or later, and maybe some good allies, like the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien.  But nobody I've ever played with has been real deep into factions or super heavy role-playing.  That's just the backdrop to kicking ass or running away.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2024, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 05, 2024, 08:12:09 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

Greetings!

Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

What do you think about that, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Basically, I'm all about the epic struggle between good and evil.  I don't care for morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in my rpgs.  The real world has too much of that.  I like playing good characters that actively destroy evil and take their stuff.  When I write stuff, there are sometimes factions, but usually different evil factions, all of whom should be put down sooner or later, and maybe some good allies, like the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien.  But nobody I've ever played with has been real deep into factions or super heavy role-playing.  That's just the backdrop to kicking ass or running away.

That's kind of sad to me.  Some of the most fun I've had at the table is running groups that aren't evil but are drawn into conflict due to opposing needs.  Running the game as an investigation game, the party seeks out the root causes of the problems that bring them to loggerheads and sorts it out.  My favorite cliche is that an evil mastermind has something to gain if these two groups destroying each other.

  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

Quote from: BadApple on January 07, 2024, 10:37:29 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

No problem.  FWIW, Sci-FI and futuristic RPGs do nothing for me and I detest Planescape with the red hot intensity of a thousand suns.  So I'm not sure I'm missing anything.  Plain and simple, in life and in gaming, I don't like factions. 

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 07, 2024, 10:37:29 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

No problem.  FWIW, Sci-FI and futuristic RPGs do nothing for me and I detest Planescape with the red hot intensity of a thousand suns.  So I'm not sure I'm missing anything.  Plain and simple, in life and in gaming, I don't like factions.

Greetings!

*Laughing* I also have zero interest in Sci-Fi or Futuristic games. And I also hated Planescape.

Imagine that? *Laughing*

I've wondered about that. I just feel numb about Sci-Fi and Futuristic RPG's. I can't even muster up the passion to really hate them. I just have zero interest in them. I've never been into them, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 07, 2024, 10:37:29 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

No problem.  FWIW, Sci-FI and futuristic RPGs do nothing for me and I detest Planescape with the red hot intensity of a thousand suns.  So I'm not sure I'm missing anything.  Plain and simple, in life and in gaming, I don't like factions.

Greetings!

*Laughing* I also have zero interest in Sci-Fi or Futuristic games. And I also hated Planescape.

Imagine that? *Laughing*

I've wondered about that. I just feel numb about Sci-Fi and Futuristic RPG's. I can't even muster up the passion to really hate them. I just have zero interest in them. I've never been into them, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thirded. If sci-fi/futuristic is your jam, by all means, have at it. But I've never liked to spend my free time playing them.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2024, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 05, 2024, 08:12:09 PM
Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

Basically, I'm all about the epic struggle between good and evil.  I don't care for morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in my rpgs.  The real world has too much of that.  I like playing good characters that actively destroy evil and take their stuff.  When I write stuff, there are sometimes factions, but usually different evil factions, all of whom should be put down sooner or later, and maybe some good allies, like the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien.  But nobody I've ever played with has been real deep into factions or super heavy role-playing.  That's just the backdrop to kicking ass or running away.

It sounds like maybe you're disappointed in lack of heavy role-playing. Sorry that you haven't gotten that.

To me, negotiation doesn't imply lack of good and evil. Like, using the example of elves feels odd to me, since in Lord of the Rings, negotiating was a huge part of the story. Bringing Rivendell, Rohan, Gondor, Lorien, and the Ents together was critical. Merry and Pippin convincing Treebeard was pivotal, for example.

My current D&D campaign is similar to Middle Earth or King Arthur in having clear good and evil, but there is still a lot of place for negotiation. There are borderline folk on the edge of being tempted to evil, and there are uncertain allies like good-aligned fey. One of the PCs greatest victories was in capturing a mercenary mastermind who worked for an evil cult, and they successfully offered him enough reward to get him to turn on them and give all the information he had.

Gillespie's dungeons like Barrowmaze tend to have all-evil factions and are well suited to a 'kill them all' approach, especially if you use a higher powered ruleset like 5e D&D or 1e AD&D. B/X based games tend to have squishy PCs.

Quote from: S'mon on January 08, 2024, 06:44:38 AM
Gillespie's dungeons like Barrowmaze tend to have all-evil factions and are well suited to a 'kill them all' approach, especially if you use a higher powered ruleset like 5e D&D or 1e AD&D. B/X based games tend to have squishy PCs.

Which is a big reason why I like all of Greg's mega-dungeons.  I think we have the same underlying approach to D&D.  What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2024, 08:46:01 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 08, 2024, 06:44:38 AM
Gillespie's dungeons like Barrowmaze tend to have all-evil factions and are well suited to a 'kill them all' approach, especially if you use a higher powered ruleset like 5e D&D or 1e AD&D. B/X based games tend to have squishy PCs.

Which is a big reason why I like all of Greg's mega-dungeons.  I think we have the same underlying approach to D&D.  What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

I'm sorry if I came across wrong.  I'm not trying to convince you to start loving something you don't.  I get it, not everyone likes Italian sausage and black olives on their pizza.

To me, good factions are some of the best elements of RPG experience and I was relating my perspective.  As a player I love them and as a GM I do a lot to make good ones to make the games I run as good as I can.  I really do mean it, it makes me a little sad when something I like so much can't be share with someone i like. 

Quote from: BadApple on January 08, 2024, 09:10:42 AM

To me, good factions are some of the best elements of RPG experience and I was relating my perspective.  As a player I love them and as a GM I do a lot to make good ones to make the games I run as good as I can.  I really do mean it, it makes me a little sad when something I like so much can't be share with someone i like.

Find myself once again in the fuzzy middle.    I love factions--but only in fantasy--somewhere between epic and sword and sorcery.  No sci/fi, no present day, very little historical, etc.  Though I'm probably closer to Persimmon than the rest, in how it plays out.  I make the game difficult enough that players are usually willing to engage with factions occasionally for an edge, but they do it for the edge, not because they love the intrigue.

Greetings!

I like having Factions, and roleplaying. I also like blood and thunder action and war.

I don't mind having friends that don't like Factions, and are not much into roleplaying. That really is ok. I have players that *love* roleplaying, politics, romance! LOL. And other players are more like, "SHARK, hand me the fire, bro, for my cigar. Let's get into this. KILL THEM! CRUSH THEM ALL!" *Laughing*

My best friend likes ham and fucking pineapple on pizza. No, I refuse to eat Hawaiian pizza. That is blasphemous. Such is food, of some kind, but it isn't PIZZA. I'm old school like that, too. Pizza is pepperoni, sausage, onions, tomatoes, mushrooms, peppers. Red sauce, or white, either can be fine.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2024, 08:46:01 AM
What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

You can absolutely enjoy whatever you enjoy, in adventures or pizza.

On the other hand, you've mischaracterized what other people enjoy, with posts like this:

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.

No one here is saying they like negotiating over water rights -- particularly in the context of megadungeons. But some people do like tactics and strategy to their combat that includes things like shifting alliances and risk of betrayal. Also, intelligence gathering and scouting.

For example - it's not a megadungeon, but my favorite introductory adventure for D&D is "The Sunless Citadel" that I've run several times. It has a rivalry/war going on between the kobolds and the goblins. I've had two runs where the PCs clash but then ally with the kobolds, leading to a big fight scene where the PCs and the kobolds overrun the goblin position, divide the spoils, and the PCs then have access to the lower levels. I'm not saying you have to like that, but it's not water rights, and the focus is still on combat.