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   I was curious what some of you guys use mega dungeons for (IME I will use a level or two and players leave do other stuff and maybe return later...or die when they go somewhere they were not ready to be) at least those of you who use them.   I was also looking for a recommended list of same old school flavor preferred.  System does not much matter as I use SW and GURPS these days for our table top and I can convert creatures/situations from most any system to those on the fly. 

   I remember a fellow who posts here from time to time who had made a mega dungeon or two and if memory serves he had a new one out or being kickstarted...anyone remember who he was and what his works were titled?  Looked to match my taste. 

Having played significant chunks of lots of the OSR megadungeons, I can recommend the following, depending on what exactly, you want:

1. Rappan Athuk--Huge, great flavor, lots of variety.  There's an outdoor sandbox area and the individual levels can generally be completed in one session.  It's statted for Swords & Wizardry.  Includes full stat blocks with monster XP like all the Swords & Wizardry stuff, which is a huge plus, IMO.
2. Tegel Manor--Updated version, also statted for Swords & Wizardry.  Not quite a megadungeon, but rather a crazy haunted house.  The update adds lots of outdoor areas and additional dungeons.
3. The Black Monastery--A bit smaller, but still large.  Also for Swords & Wizardry; very easy, simple backstory one can drop in anywhere.

Any of the Greg Gillespie megadungeons, but depends on what you want.  "Barrowmaze" is mostly undead.  "Forbidden Caverns of Archaia" is sort of like "The Caves of Chaos" on steroids in the Grand Canyon.  "Highfell" is a collection of wizard towers on a floating island and is the most modular.  "Dwarrowdeep" is an abandoned dwarf hold, but has a lot of empty spaces for the DM to design.  All have solid base areas with small towns and wilderness.  Some cool new monster variants too.  Originally designed for Labyrinth Lord, but Greg's own Dragonslayer game will be out soon and is designed for these.

Michael Curtis' "Stonehell," available in two volumes from Lulu, is possibly the best value for money.  Pretty easy to run because of its design and layout.  Originally written for Labyrinth Lord.

If you want gonzo weirdness with evil clowns, dinosaurs, and lots of tech and classic rock references, you might like Patrick Wetmore's "Anomalous Subsurface Environment."  Also designed for Labyrinth Lord.

"The Halls of Arden Vul" is amazing, but also massive (5 volumes) and, IMO, too complicated to run.  Some of the single room descriptions run several pages in length.  But it has flavor, if you're itching to spend $275 (hard copy; I think the pdfs are like $30 each).

There are others, but these are the ones I've played, at least in part.  Haven't "completed" any, but it's a goal for the coming year.

A poster with a Megadungeon... Are you talking about Alexander Macris finishing up Dwimmermount, maybe? It's very setting specific, kind of like Arden Vul has solid limits as to where it can be easily fit into setting/genre-wise, but moreso. That said, price to page ratio is pretty awesome, especially when on sale or the like. Has an ACKS version and I want to say a Labyrinth Lord version?

Edit: To clarify, I have not purchased it or played Dwimmermount, only considered doing so.

If you are interested in Arden Vul, my marketplace is usually the best place to get the whole set in PDF. It's priced as if CAD=USD, so that's about 24% off at the moment (and you can pay in a number of different currencies.)

https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/arden-vul (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/arden-vul)  The maps are also free if you want a sort of preview.

JG's Thieves of Badabaskor is a lot of fun. Don't know if it's big enough for your liking though.

There's Castle of the Mad Archmage.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 29, 2023, 11:57:30 AM
   I was curious what some of you guys use mega dungeons for (IME I will use a level or two and players leave do other stuff and maybe return later...or die when they go somewhere they were not ready to be) at least those of you who use them.   I was also looking for a recommended list of same old school flavor preferred.  System does not much matter as I use SW and GURPS these days for our table top and I can convert creatures/situations from most any system to those on the fly. 

   I remember a fellow who posts here from time to time who had made a mega dungeon or two and if memory serves he had a new one out or being kickstarted...anyone remember who he was and what his works were titled?  Looked to match my taste.

The "Players getting bored, and leaving after levels 1-2", has been my experience every time I have tried to run a megadungeon. 

Some of the settings attached to the megadungeons are pretty amazing.  I am currently reading Anomalous Subsurface Environment ASE:1 by Patrick Wetmore, and I am blown away by his City of Denethix, and the Land of One Thousand Towers.  It is very post apocalyptic and would be perfect for a Gamma World campaign, or Mutant Future, or the Goodman Games clone. 

Quote from: Persimmon on December 29, 2023, 12:24:22 PM
Having played significant chunks of lots of the OSR megadungeons, I can recommend the following, depending on what exactly, you want:

1. Rappan Athuk--Huge, great flavor, lots of variety.  There's an outdoor sandbox area and the individual levels can generally be completed in one session.  It's statted for Swords & Wizardry.  Includes full stat blocks with monster XP like all the Swords & Wizardry stuff, which is a huge plus, IMO.
2. Tegel Manor--Updated version, also statted for Swords & Wizardry.  Not quite a megadungeon, but rather a crazy haunted house.  The update adds lots of outdoor areas and additional dungeons.
3. The Black Monastery--A bit smaller, but still large.  Also for Swords & Wizardry; very easy, simple backstory one can drop in anywhere.

Any of the Greg Gillespie megadungeons, but depends on what you want.  "Barrowmaze" is mostly undead.  "Forbidden Caverns of Archaia" is sort of like "The Caves of Chaos" on steroids in the Grand Canyon.  "Highfell" is a collection of wizard towers on a floating island and is the most modular.  "Dwarrowdeep" is an abandoned dwarf hold, but has a lot of empty spaces for the DM to design.  All have solid base areas with small towns and wilderness.  Some cool new monster variants too.  Originally designed for Labyrinth Lord, but Greg's own Dragonslayer game will be out soon and is designed for these.

Michael Curtis' "Stonehell," available in two volumes from Lulu, is possibly the best value for money.  Pretty easy to run because of its design and layout.  Originally written for Labyrinth Lord.

If you want gonzo weirdness with evil clowns, dinosaurs, and lots of tech and classic rock references, you might like Patrick Wetmore's "Anomalous Subsurface Environment."  Also designed for Labyrinth Lord.

"The Halls of Arden Vul" is amazing, but also massive (5 volumes) and, IMO, too complicated to run.  Some of the single room descriptions run several pages in length.  But it has flavor, if you're itching to spend $275 (hard copy; I think the pdfs are like $30 each).

There are others, but these are the ones I've played, at least in part.  Haven't "completed" any, but it's a goal for the coming year.

  Greg Gillespie was the fellow I was thinking of....Thanks!!   Have you run anyone all the way (well at least as far as they could get) through RA?   I have it in a few versions (PF, 5e) either of which are easy conversions for me...I was just wondering if you have had a group stick to it long term.   The area around it seems to offer lots of diversion from the dungeon for people who get a little tired of being underground so I would like to try it. 

With Rappan Athuk, and Undermountain; I know from the outset, that only I would be committed to running the whole treacherous thing.  They are huge toolboxes; containing maps of levels, with descriptions of possible encounters.  They give you something you can spontaneously pull from, to explain what lies beyond the next door of your homebrewed dungeon. 

Quote from: Persimmon on December 29, 2023, 12:24:22 PM
There are others, but these are the ones I've played, at least in part.  Haven't "completed" any, but it's a goal for the coming year.

Damn, you nailed pretty much everything I was thinking of. Very nice list.

Rappan Athuk has, what, four different released versions at this point? At least three, I have the original three-book version and one of the more recent collected re-releases for some reason. The unkillable shit monster is a particularly treasured memory, and turned into a running gag even after the party left.

The Black Monastery and Tegel Manor sorta share the same space. I liked both, I'd probably go with Tegel Manor if I had to pick one or the other, but not by much.

I had a blast playing in a long running Barrowmaze campaign. Do know before you go in that the emphasis on undead turns it into D&D on hard mode. Many encounters won't be making reaction rolls or morale checks, so it can be more of a meatgrinder than many other old school dungeons. Its a little ironic something weak on those two elements was such a darling of the OSR, but it really is very well executed.

Caverns of Thracia deserves mention as well. Purists call it borderline on being a true mega-dungeon, it might be "only" a very large dungeon, but it its still large enough to tentpole a campaign.

Those are the only two I know directly from play. Caverns of Archaia reads well. Its got some good set pieces, and some good tactical dungeon design. Strangely it got mixed reviews when it first released, perhaps in comparison to Barrowmaze (same author, and Barrow did get played and worked on longer). But when I dug into Caverns myself I couldn't see it.

As an aside, the Caves of Chaos writ large organization of it also makes it a sourcebook for ready-made monster lairs. That's a selling point the author doesn't make and I haven't seen anyone else discuss, but it did make it value for money for me, even without running the whole thing.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 29, 2023, 03:01:05 PMThe "Players getting bored, and leaving after levels 1-2", has been my experience every time I have tried to run a megadungeon.

That mega-dungeon game I played in pulled it off by being explicitly what was advertised and recruited for. So it wasn't group first, compromise on the game second, everyone there knew what we were in for and was at least willing to check it out. And then we went on to something else entirely when it was done, but I would still do it all over again.

There is Grande Temple of Jing (Kickstarter project URL: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hammerdog/the-grande-temple-of-jing-5th-edition-and-other-ed ). I've never read my copy so I' can't weigh in beyond that (so many books, so little time!). Seems to be different themes and designed to be dropped into any campaign as the entrance is via a gate (magical, not physical) if memory serves.

In my experience, even the best megadungeons get boring real quick. What kept the ones back in the day fresh is that it wasn't the same PCs going down it all the time. In some ways, you were competing with other players.

IMHO, what works best with the same group are mini-settings, where there are a lot of little dungeons and sites and crap. The Lost City of Barakus is really good. The Beast that Waits is another. Peaks and Valleys of the Dwarves.

Greg Gillespie's megadungeons are great. I've run through much of Caverns of Archaia and a good portion of Barrowmaze (through mid-level) but haven't completed either of them because of burnout and how huge they are. I would highly recommend either of them depending on the vibe you want to go with. I think preferred Caverns of Archaia just due to the variety it provides compared to undead-heavy Barrowmaze. Highfell is a little too gonzo for my tastes so I doubt I'll ever run it. Dwarrodeep seems very cool but the extra prep means it might be a long time before I get around to playing it.

The Halls of Arden Vul seems like a great product just from skimming through it, but it also has some of the most dense and awful layout I think I've seen for a megadungeon. In order to actually run this thing, I'm going to need to either print a spare copy just to mark up in the margins and highlight the text, or I'm going to have to re-write the key. Given its sheer scale, either is a huge undertaking.

The things I like about megadungeons: they provide a solid basis for a campaign and have a natural progression into domain play (staying on one place for a long time and getting a ton of resources). The sheer scale of these things also deprograms people used to more modern games and teaches them that not every door is meant to be opened, not every room will be profitable if cleared. I like the non-linearity. I like the idea that these dungeons can fit an open table easily and people can share their experiences. I love Greg's notes in Barrowmaze sharing the experiences at his table.

The things I don't like about megadungeons in practice: The content is often repetitive so players need to consciously manage your burnout and rotate in other content. The megadungeons also don't usually have enough quest hooks built into the downtime in town to help provide specific goals and destinations for the players other than the initial hooks to get you into the dungeon the first time or some of the in-dungeon quests you might stumble across. So you need really self-motivated players to make it very deep into one of these. The pace on these can also grind to a crawl when they have too many lethal traps and ambushes.

In general I wish there was more integration between town, wilderness, and dungeon to keep momentum up and give me more options to deal with burnout that still gives me routes to circle back to the dungeon. I wish the wilderness around these dungeons was a little more fleshed out with points of interest further away.

I ran a campaign of Dwimmermount online during lockdowns which was lots of fun; 5e PCs made it to 10th level before it fizzled (52 weekly sessions). You'll probably want to do work to develop the world more than was in the book by the time the PCs reach 5th.

Reading Tegel Manor is uninspiring; I'd rather play in Castle Amber, even though the Goodman Games modernisation of it was underwhelming. (Their B4 Lost City is also a bit underwhelming / a missed opportunity but nearly megadungeon-sized, and feels like it could be a forced tentpole until the players reach 4th or 5th level, after which you could open up the world easily.)

Rappan Athuk is pretty dense, could use more editing as well as better layout and more careful conversion between editions - Frog God quality control usually disappoints me. I've only played a bit of Arden Vul PbP, but the history there really appeals to me.

I've wanted to rewrite Thunderspire Labyrinth from 4e into a proper megadungeon / vault-of-the-drow-style small underdark, but haven't had players bite on that campaign premise yet. I think it's got promise.

For a different take on "dungeon", I hate the town in "Lesserton & Mor", but the ruined city procedural generator might be big enough to be a campaign tentpole, or give you a good set of exposed ruins to build your set pieces underneath.

I've run both Barrowmaze and Stonehell for years using 5e D&D and enjoyed them a lot. Barrowmaze campaign page at https://frloudwater.blogspot.com/2021/04/helix-barrowmoor.html  session accounts at https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/10021247/barrowmaze

Some Stonehell accounts at https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/10701418/ghinarian-hills-slash-stonehell-session-accounts

In 2024 I'm planning to try running Highfell with Dragonbane rules - https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/12/highfell-drifting-dungeon.html

Quote from: oggsmash on December 29, 2023, 05:36:29 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 29, 2023, 12:24:22 PM
Having played significant chunks of lots of the OSR megadungeons, I can recommend the following, depending on what exactly, you want:

1. Rappan Athuk--Huge, great flavor, lots of variety.  There's an outdoor sandbox area and the individual levels can generally be completed in one session.  It's statted for Swords & Wizardry.  Includes full stat blocks with monster XP like all the Swords & Wizardry stuff, which is a huge plus, IMO.
2. Tegel Manor--Updated version, also statted for Swords & Wizardry.  Not quite a megadungeon, but rather a crazy haunted house.  The update adds lots of outdoor areas and additional dungeons.
3. The Black Monastery--A bit smaller, but still large.  Also for Swords & Wizardry; very easy, simple backstory one can drop in anywhere.

Any of the Greg Gillespie megadungeons, but depends on what you want.  "Barrowmaze" is mostly undead.  "Forbidden Caverns of Archaia" is sort of like "The Caves of Chaos" on steroids in the Grand Canyon.  "Highfell" is a collection of wizard towers on a floating island and is the most modular.  "Dwarrowdeep" is an abandoned dwarf hold, but has a lot of empty spaces for the DM to design.  All have solid base areas with small towns and wilderness.  Some cool new monster variants too.  Originally designed for Labyrinth Lord, but Greg's own Dragonslayer game will be out soon and is designed for these.

Michael Curtis' "Stonehell," available in two volumes from Lulu, is possibly the best value for money.  Pretty easy to run because of its design and layout.  Originally written for Labyrinth Lord.

If you want gonzo weirdness with evil clowns, dinosaurs, and lots of tech and classic rock references, you might like Patrick Wetmore's "Anomalous Subsurface Environment."  Also designed for Labyrinth Lord.

"The Halls of Arden Vul" is amazing, but also massive (5 volumes) and, IMO, too complicated to run.  Some of the single room descriptions run several pages in length.  But it has flavor, if you're itching to spend $275 (hard copy; I think the pdfs are like $30 each).

There are others, but these are the ones I've played, at least in part.  Haven't "completed" any, but it's a goal for the coming year.

  Greg Gillespie was the fellow I was thinking of....Thanks!!   Have you run anyone all the way (well at least as far as they could get) through RA?   I have it in a few versions (PF, 5e) either of which are easy conversions for me...I was just wondering if you have had a group stick to it long term.   The area around it seems to offer lots of diversion from the dungeon for people who get a little tired of being underground so I would like to try it.

We did maybe 10 sessions of Rappan Thuk then the party hit a teleporter that took them to Necropolis, which we ran in its entirety.  But we weren't really tired of it, so I wouldn't mind giving it another go with a different group.  It's near the top for me.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 29, 2023, 03:01:05 PM
The "Players getting bored, and leaving after levels 1-2", has been my experience every time I have tried to run a megadungeon. 

Some of the settings attached to the megadungeons are pretty amazing.  I am currently reading Anomalous Subsurface Environment ASE:1 by Patrick Wetmore, and I am blown away by his City of Denethix, and the Land of One Thousand Towers.  It is very post apocalyptic and would be perfect for a Gamma World campaign, or Mutant Future, or the Goodman Games clone.

Quote from: S'mon on December 30, 2023, 09:18:56 AM
I've run both Barrowmaze and Stonehell for years using 5e D&D and enjoyed them a lot. Barrowmaze campaign page at https://frloudwater.blogspot.com/2021/04/helix-barrowmoor.html  session accounts at https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/10021247/barrowmaze

Some Stonehell accounts at https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/10701418/ghinarian-hills-slash-stonehell-session-accounts

In 2024 I'm planning to try running Highfell with Dragonbane rules - https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/12/highfell-drifting-dungeon.html

I'm curious - how do they keep it from feeling repetitive to keep going through the same dungeon? I glanced over your session accounts, S'mon - which look fun, but it's hard to get a bigger picture from those.

The last time I played in a megadungeon was a Judge's Guild module back in 1989, and my experience was similar to Svenhelgrim in that monster after monster started to feel stale. The old Judge's Guild megadungeon had a variety of monsters and tricks/traps, but it got to feeling rather mechanical. We leaned into it for a while as we honed our tactics and went over-the-top with optimizing our kill procedures. We carefully wrote out checklists and so forth, and also scanned for things like how to kill sections of the dungeon by smoke inhalation, for example. But it did still come to feel like churning rather than fresh.

I copied the following off a blog years ago. Intended to liven up Barrowmaze, I recall the idea was to roll a d20 for each undead encounter so not every one would be off the wall, but enough would be. And you might cross off some entries and write in new ones if repetitions didn't make sense.

I should credit the creator, but I can't find it now off a search, and didn't think to paste that info in as well. I retain impression it was meant to be shared though, so here it is.

What's Up With These Undead?

• An Enchanted Weapon is either (mindless) stuck in or (intelligent) wielded by one of the creatures (GM's choice what weapon).
• The creatures are Armored, or more heavily armored than usual if they normally wear protection. Treat their AC as two steps better. The actual armor is rusted, rotted or worn and can be of any specific type.
  
• The creatures are stalked by an entourage of 3D6 Giant Rats that devour the scraps they leave behind. They will fall upon and devour any fallen PC's, and possibly attack the party after combat if the PC's appear sufficiently weakened.
• A Lesser Demon is bound in one of the creatures (quite visibly, the creature has a large red pentagram painted on its chest). If the pentagram is disturbed, such as by slaying the creature (except perhaps using called shots or similar), the demon (6 HD, AC 15, 2@+6,D8, Fire Breath 3/day, 20' cone for 2D8 dmg, save for half) will be released into this plane. Roll Reaction at -4. An intelligent creature marked in this way will use it to threaten the party and attempt to make them release the demon, and then flee to escape its wrath.
• The creatures are dressed in Clerical Robes and wear gilded holy symbols of an appropriate lawful deity. They possess no special powers. Each holy symbol is worth 50 SP.
  
• A number (2D4) of Giant Centipedes live on or in the creatures in a symbiotic relationship. These centipedes will remain on the creatures until brought into melee range, and will then attempt to scurry onto opponents and paralyze them with their venom.
• One of the creatures has an Arrow of Dragonslaying stuck in it.
• The creatures are, for some reason, chained together. They make a lot of noise while moving around, they move slower than normal and the chain can possibly cause them any number of practical problems. Intelligent undead will know to minimize these problems, and perhaps even use the chain to their advantage.
  
• The creatures are dragging a small cart along. Mindless undead will simply drag it behind them, set on some ancient task now probably pointless. Intelligent undead will use it as a mobile food supply, and in it can be found random valuables worth 500 SP along with a lot of bones and disgusting bits. The cart itself is rickety and worn, but functional.
• One of the creatures is exceptionally large, at least 7' tall if the beings are of human size. This creature is hung with decorative bone jewelery, and automatically has maximum HP.
  
• The creatures carry a Fungal Infection which has covered them in strange growths. This has granted them an extra HD each. Spores release in a 5' radius cloud on a successful hit which causes physical damage (i.e. not fire, cold or the like). Those caught in a spore cloud must make a Fortitude save (one per round) or begin to choke (-4 to all activity for a Turn) and become infected with a Fungal Rot (treat as Lung Sickness, but accompanied by growths which spread infectious spores as per above).
  
• Someone has hung a string of bells on one of the creatures. Mindless undead will announce their approach from far off and cannot surprise anything. Intelligent undead will attempt a diversion, hiding in ambush while one of them skulks around in a room while wearing the bells.
  

One one level it would be nice if megadungeon creators all gave us stuff like this, and more. On another level its not like published megadungeons aren't bulky to begin with, and crowdsourcing is a thing as well.

(We should do more crowdsourcing/brainstorming on this site. Its the only thing I miss from the Google+ days, and even from the pre-convergence days of the big purple site, as long ago as that was.)

Quote from: Dave 2 on December 30, 2023, 05:38:57 PM
I copied the following off a blog years ago. Intended to liven up Barrowmaze, I recall the idea was to roll a d20 for each undead encounter so not every one would be off the wall, but enough would be. And you might cross off some entries and write in new ones if repetitions didn't make sense.

I should credit the creator, but I can't find it now off a search, and didn't think to paste that info in as well. I retain impression it was meant to be shared though, so here it is.

I found the source for this. I was sure I'd seen it before, and was able to find it again.
https://perchance.org/whats-up-with-these-undead

Quote from: Dave 2 on December 30, 2023, 05:38:57 PM
(We should do more crowdsourcing/brainstorming on this site. Its the only thing I miss from the Google+ days, and even from the pre-convergence days of the big purple site, as long ago as that was.)

Yes we totally should do more crowdsourcing around here. I always enjoy those sorts of exercises.

Greetings!

People have mentioned some excellent mega-dungeons, for sure.

I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

There is a framework that you can reasonably include all kinds of things, or narrow the scope, as desired. Lots of potential allies and friends that can be gained, powerful secondary villains, all kinds of things. It is a fantastic campaign box thing. I GM'd this thing for my group back in the day, and it consumed and dominated the group's campaign play for, as I recall, like a year of real time. The group went from like 4th level, to 20th level by the time the "Night Below" campaign was concluded. The group then moved into more domain focused play after that.

Each and every week, the group got to embrace subterranean dungeons, subterranean wilderness exploration, and then alternating as needed with return trips to the surface, and civilized lands. The group had to deal with logistics, supply-lines, politics, assassins, evil cultists striking from the shadows within the walls of the city, weird sub-plots, all kinds of stuff going on while they were in civilized lands--before they returned to the savage lands below the earth. So, there was always lots of fresh experiences that were not just being shoved into a dungeon every week. Then, they might slog underground for a week or two, maybe three, before it would be time to return to the surface for a few weeks. Back and forth. It was a good rhythm that I had established, with lots of interesting variety.

I highly recommend this supplement. The original author was Carl Sargent. It is a masterclass all by itself on establishing a campaign with an epic scope. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on December 31, 2023, 06:44:20 AM
Greetings!
I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.


Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Weirdly enough, I am currently developing a campaign that looks a hell of a lot like this including an alliance of Aboleth being the overarching villains.  The only big difference is that it's also a pirate game centered around an ocean in the Underdark.

Quote from: SHARK on December 31, 2023, 06:44:20 AM
Greetings!

People have mentioned some excellent mega-dungeons, for sure.

I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

There is a framework that you can reasonably include all kinds of things, or narrow the scope, as desired. Lots of potential allies and friends that can be gained, powerful secondary villains, all kinds of things. It is a fantastic campaign box thing. I GM'd this thing for my group back in the day, and it consumed and dominated the group's campaign play for, as I recall, like a year of real time. The group went from like 4th level, to 20th level by the time the "Night Below" campaign was concluded. The group then moved into more domain focused play after that.

Each and every week, the group got to embrace subterranean dungeons, subterranean wilderness exploration, and then alternating as needed with return trips to the surface, and civilized lands. The group had to deal with logistics, supply-lines, politics, assassins, evil cultists striking from the shadows within the walls of the city, weird sub-plots, all kinds of stuff going on while they were in civilized lands--before they returned to the savage lands below the earth. So, there was always lots of fresh experiences that were not just being shoved into a dungeon every week. Then, they might slog underground for a week or two, maybe three, before it would be time to return to the surface for a few weeks. Back and forth. It was a good rhythm that I had established, with lots of interesting variety.

I highly recommend this supplement. The original author was Carl Sargent. It is a masterclass all by itself on establishing a campaign with an epic scope. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Currently playing this in an online group for C&C.  Probably the best adventure written for 2e and definitely prefigures the adventure path format in one massive boxed set.

I tried to run Undermountain back in the day.  My experience matched some others.  Even the players who liked that style of play just got bored with it.  One of the players asked if they had to keep doing it.  The rest nodded in agreement.  I just dropped it.  No, you don't have to do that. 

My current group has little interest in megadungeons, and in general finds the whole dungeoncrawl experience to be sort of boring. I think a lot of this is because the current rules (5E) is so fiddly and combat tends to be a real slog.

As an old fart, I thought I would give a 1970's perspective on the megadungeon, and why it used to be a good thing.

When I first learned D&D, the philosophy of gaming was very different. While today's adventures tend to focus on plot and diplomacy, older adventures were mostly a matter of beating monsters so you could steal their stuff. The dungeon was the challenge and we would go in, go as deep as we could, then try to escape the dungeon and head back to town to heal and buy better weapons. Returning to the dungeon we might find a few new monsters had established residence, but the rooms we had cleared were mostly cleared and that meant we could quickly get back to where we had left off so that we could push deeper again. Each time we delved into a new level down we would high-five each other, cheered that we had reached a new depth. Conquering the dungeon was its own reward.

My deepest dungeon was around 20 levels, but some of them were hastily and poorly done. Gary's Greyhawk dungeons went something like 13 levels down. Arneson's Blackmoor dungeons started at 6 levels, and later got expanded to 10. I think a lot of us played that style back then.

Nowadays massive dungeons are neat for me, but not so fun for players. New era, new philosophy I guess.

I know Barrowmaze is a really good megadungeon, and I also recommend Dwarrowdeep. It's a dwarven megadungeon made by the same author. Not everyone liked it as much as Barrowmaze, but I think it's a really fantastic megadungeon. It's actually more of an underground hexcrawl with dungeons all throughout it, similar to Moria.

Another one I recommend is Gunderholfen. It's not as mega as some megadungeons, but it works pretty well and it's a really good dungeon for its price.

Quote from: jhkim on December 30, 2023, 04:03:08 PM
I'm curious - how do they keep it from feeling repetitive to keep going through the same dungeon? I glanced over your session accounts, S'mon - which look fun, but it's hard to get a bigger picture from those.

I think different dungeon factions help, an outer world that feels alive, and important goals within the megadungeon. So do BBEGs, like the Nixthisis in Stonehell. Proactive players, eg my son is an empire builder with a growing cult of Yig in Stonehell spanning several levels and temples, while my friend Matt's Paladin PC Macready is determined to map the Barrowmaze.

Something that helps a lot is not thinking in terms of kill every monster. Even undead aren't always hostile (esp if the GM is getting bored of fights)  ;D. Macready befriended the Barrowmaze mongrelmen, eventually escorting the tribe to a new home.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 31, 2023, 07:32:32 AM

Quote from: SHARK on December 31, 2023, 06:44:20 AM
Greetings!
I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.


Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Weirdly enough, I am currently developing a campaign that looks a hell of a lot like this including an alliance of Aboleth being the overarching villains.  The only big difference is that it's also a pirate game centered around an ocean in the Underdark.

Greetings!

Nice, Yosemitemike! It is such a great campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Persimmon on December 31, 2023, 11:27:49 AM

Quote from: SHARK on December 31, 2023, 06:44:20 AM
Greetings!

People have mentioned some excellent mega-dungeons, for sure.

I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

There is a framework that you can reasonably include all kinds of things, or narrow the scope, as desired. Lots of potential allies and friends that can be gained, powerful secondary villains, all kinds of things. It is a fantastic campaign box thing. I GM'd this thing for my group back in the day, and it consumed and dominated the group's campaign play for, as I recall, like a year of real time. The group went from like 4th level, to 20th level by the time the "Night Below" campaign was concluded. The group then moved into more domain focused play after that.

Each and every week, the group got to embrace subterranean dungeons, subterranean wilderness exploration, and then alternating as needed with return trips to the surface, and civilized lands. The group had to deal with logistics, supply-lines, politics, assassins, evil cultists striking from the shadows within the walls of the city, weird sub-plots, all kinds of stuff going on while they were in civilized lands--before they returned to the savage lands below the earth. So, there was always lots of fresh experiences that were not just being shoved into a dungeon every week. Then, they might slog underground for a week or two, maybe three, before it would be time to return to the surface for a few weeks. Back and forth. It was a good rhythm that I had established, with lots of interesting variety.

I highly recommend this supplement. The original author was Carl Sargent. It is a masterclass all by itself on establishing a campaign with an epic scope. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Currently playing this in an online group for C&C.  Probably the best adventure written for 2e and definitely prefigures the adventure path format in one massive boxed set.

Greetings!

Excellent, my friend! I have always enjoyed "Night Below." It is so flexible. It is like a mega dungeon, right, but with so much more going on. I love how Sargent includes so many prompts aimed at encouraging you to really think about the material presented, and to expand on it in different, cool ways. And, well, many of his own ideas as presented through the set up and encounters are themselves brilliant and very cool.

Running the campaign, I often added new material, but almost always kept stuff that Sargent wrote. It is brilliant, and very enjoyable.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Dave 2 on December 29, 2023, 06:32:14 PM
I had a blast playing in a long running Barrowmaze campaign. Do know before you go in that the emphasis on undead turns it into D&D on hard mode. Many encounters won't be making reaction rolls or morale checks, so it can be more of a meatgrinder than many other old school dungeons. Its a little ironic something weak on those two elements was such a darling of the OSR, but it really is very well executed.
.....

I'll highly recommend Greg Gillespie's megadungeons. Barrowmaze is such that you can run as much as your player's want. And it's a ton of fun for the right group.

Quote from: SHARK on December 31, 2023, 06:44:20 AM
Greetings!

People have mentioned some excellent mega-dungeons, for sure.

I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

There is a framework that you can reasonably include all kinds of things, or narrow the scope, as desired. Lots of potential allies and friends that can be gained, powerful secondary villains, all kinds of things. It is a fantastic campaign box thing. I GM'd this thing for my group back in the day, and it consumed and dominated the group's campaign play for, as I recall, like a year of real time. The group went from like 4th level, to 20th level by the time the "Night Below" campaign was concluded. The group then moved into more domain focused play after that.

Each and every week, the group got to embrace subterranean dungeons, subterranean wilderness exploration, and then alternating as needed with return trips to the surface, and civilized lands. The group had to deal with logistics, supply-lines, politics, assassins, evil cultists striking from the shadows within the walls of the city, weird sub-plots, all kinds of stuff going on while they were in civilized lands--before they returned to the savage lands below the earth. So, there was always lots of fresh experiences that were not just being shoved into a dungeon every week. Then, they might slog underground for a week or two, maybe three, before it would be time to return to the surface for a few weeks. Back and forth. It was a good rhythm that I had established, with lots of interesting variety.

I highly recommend this supplement. The original author was Carl Sargent. It is a masterclass all by itself on establishing a campaign with an epic scope. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings SHARK! Happy New Year. I agree with this 100%. My player's are just about to start this awesome adventure and I'm having a blast just reading it....the ideas that flow.

My advice is to make your own. You'll know it better. You won't have to read, grok, and inevitably modify someone else's prep, and the content will be an exact match for the needs of your campaign. In my experience, using someone else's megadungeon doesn't save you much time. You don't need to have the whole thing done to start play. Just have a general idea of the dungeon's contents, a few levels done, and if the players deep deeper wing it and give them enough of a scare that they move back up (this can sometimes be done with just foreshadowing and noises -- players going deeper than their comfort zone are usually pretty cautious). If you develop your dungeon while playing it (I don't mean in the same session obviously) you'll probably get into a kind of cool feedback loop where the game play helps inspire and direct the development of the dungeon, itself.

You can still use published megadungeons for inspiration, outright theft of cool rooms/sections, or to plug in areas as sublevels.

As for megadungeon fatigue, that can be a very real thing. The way to fight it is to get away from the idea that the megadungeon can be "beaten" or cleared. While simply exploring it in search of fortune and glory is one thing PCs can do, there are many other ways the megadungeon can be used. Some type of quest focused mission is always good. The the famed outlaw Vagnar the Limper has kidnapped a noble's son and is believed to be hiding on the second level of [fill in the blank megadungeon name]. Or the ancient map you found is partially legible, and seems to show system of caves in [the megadungeon] noted as "the crystal caverns," and these contain the final resting place of the famous hero Agrikor, known for his dragon-slaying sword. And so on. PCs can enter the megadungeon on adventures with specific goals, but they don't have to spend all their time in the megadungeon. The campaign can move in other directions, only returning to the megadungeon on occasion.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 03, 2024, 07:10:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on December 31, 2023, 06:44:20 AM
Greetings!

People have mentioned some excellent mega-dungeons, for sure.

I would include "The Night Below." It is an old school boxed set mega-adventure campaign thingy. It is primarily focused on a huge subterranean adventure campaign, but it also embraces plenty of action going on up on the surface. Trading, mercantile opportunities, roleplaying. Politics. Then, there is plenty of scope for wilderness adventures while traveling from some surface town or city, down to wherever the party is encamped in the subterranean world. Once the group has entered the subterranean world, well, well, there is plenty of scope for including various subterranean dungeons and lairs, as well as subterranean towns, outposts, and majestic, crazy cities. There are Fish-men cities, Troglodyte camps, lots of Undead, as well as Minotaurs, beastmen, Drow Elves, and the mysterious Aboleth, which are the primary villain. There is also the Mind-Flayers, Demons, Succubi, various monsters, Dragons, Giants, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

There is a framework that you can reasonably include all kinds of things, or narrow the scope, as desired. Lots of potential allies and friends that can be gained, powerful secondary villains, all kinds of things. It is a fantastic campaign box thing. I GM'd this thing for my group back in the day, and it consumed and dominated the group's campaign play for, as I recall, like a year of real time. The group went from like 4th level, to 20th level by the time the "Night Below" campaign was concluded. The group then moved into more domain focused play after that.

Each and every week, the group got to embrace subterranean dungeons, subterranean wilderness exploration, and then alternating as needed with return trips to the surface, and civilized lands. The group had to deal with logistics, supply-lines, politics, assassins, evil cultists striking from the shadows within the walls of the city, weird sub-plots, all kinds of stuff going on while they were in civilized lands--before they returned to the savage lands below the earth. So, there was always lots of fresh experiences that were not just being shoved into a dungeon every week. Then, they might slog underground for a week or two, maybe three, before it would be time to return to the surface for a few weeks. Back and forth. It was a good rhythm that I had established, with lots of interesting variety.

I highly recommend this supplement. The original author was Carl Sargent. It is a masterclass all by itself on establishing a campaign with an epic scope. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings SHARK! Happy New Year. I agree with this 100%. My player's are just about to start this awesome adventure and I'm having a blast just reading it....the ideas that flow.

Greetings!

Thorn, my friend! HAPPY NEW YEARS INDEED! Thank you as well.

That is awesome that you are running your group through "The Night Below." I think Carl Sargent is terribly underrated as a game designer. Every section bubbles with ideas and inspiration! I found that there is *plenty* of work for you, as the DM, to do, each and every week or game session. Detailing the various NPC's, exploring sub-plots, and on and on. That thing is incredibly entertaining to just read, and work on, quite apart and separate from playing the group through it. I know you will enjoy it immensely, Thorn.

You should post a weekly campaign Series detailing your group's adventures, and, just as interesting, a kind of "Design Notes" on your part of all that you are doing as the DM. Discussing things in the campaign books that you love, things you changed, and how such changes were dealt with by the players as they explore the fantastic campaign module!

It is mind blowing that it has been what? 25, 30 years since I ran "The Night Below"--and I still have huge memories of how that part of the campaign went. It was enormously inspiring and impactful.

I also recommend that you resist the temptation to "railroad" the group through all the secondary or supplemental encounters, to speed them to the "exciting parts." Let them not just explore, and chase down plots and things at their own pace, but actively support and encourage the group to develop the campaign and really dig into stuff. Your campaign will be richly rewarded for doing so! Watch how different relationships develop, how politics are affected, and even the cultural environment is altered. Trading posts, welcoming new tribes or settlements, making alliances with Gnomes, Elves, Centaurs, what have you. It will blow your mind the depth and scope that can be developed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2024, 05:17:09 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 30, 2023, 04:03:08 PM
I'm curious - how do they keep it from feeling repetitive to keep going through the same dungeon? I glanced over your session accounts, S'mon - which look fun, but it's hard to get a bigger picture from those.

I think different dungeon factions help, an outer world that feels alive, and important goals within the megadungeon. So do BBEGs, like the Nixthisis in Stonehell. Proactive players, eg my son is an empire builder with a growing cult of Yig in Stonehell spanning several levels and temples, while my friend Matt's Paladin PC Macready is determined to map the Barrowmaze.

Something that helps a lot is not thinking in terms of kill every monster. Even undead aren't always hostile (esp if the GM is getting bored of fights)  ;D. Macready befriended the Barrowmaze mongrelmen, eventually escorting the tribe to a new home.

It sounds like these megadungeons are quite different in design from the old Judge's Guild modules, as well as some modern megadungeons. The one modern megadungeon I have is Castle Gargantua - which is a 2014 OSR adventure, but it's still just lots and lots of rooms with encounters - rather than having higher-level structure with varying goals and politics and such.

Basically, I'm curious about what makes a good megadungeon module, for whatever one's view is.

I always get thrown off by the "mega-" designation.

I guess I would count Gary's Greyhawk as a mega. Dave's Blackmoor. Barker's Underworld below Jakalla. But only those who played with Gary, Dave or Barker ever saw those.

And gamers creating their own dungeons could well have gone to mega status by continuing to draw out and populate level after level. But that was home-brew and only their friends ever saw that.

If we look at what was published during Gygaxian-era D&D, there was nothing I would consider as even close to mega. Dungeons, and settings. A series of discrete adventure locations. But that's all.

I don't know when the mega started getting applied, but Undermountain seemed like it could merit the mega. Maybe Night Below, I wouldn't know since I've never seen it.

Since the OSR movement we see things like Barrowmaze et al and the term mega is tossed around as a "thing," usually with the aura that it reflects "old-school" gaming. Well, maybe home-brewed old school gaming, but not old school modules published for purchase.

I'll say that I once ran a very big dungeon and it qualified as mega. The players were tasked with finding a particular NPC who dwelled at the bottom of the dungeon. They weren't cleaning it out room by room, they didn't attack absolutely everything (close though). But I think we all began to suffer from dungeon fatigue after a while. They couldn't retreat, it didn't make sense. I was glad when they achieved their goal, and it made sense story-wise to teleport them out.

Nowadays I think there's a lot to be said for short adventures. Provides achievable goals without a fatigue factor, allows for training and resupply, and characters can be swapped in and out along with varied player attendance.

I firmly support night below as I was one of the authors wayyyyy back in the day to convert it from 2E to 3x over on EnWorld.  It's a blast to play except in the middle part which is where things bog down tremendously and it becomes a slog.

I highly suggest streamling Book 2 and Book 3 an strip out the absolute meatgrinder sections from the City of the Glass Pool to Great Shaboath. Tone down all the crap surrounding the city and force the PC's to get to the end.

As for MegaDungeons I also support Ardun Vul as the books are beautiful and packed full of good and useful encounters.

Quote from: SHARK on January 03, 2024, 11:57:58 PM
Greetings!

Thorn, my friend! HAPPY NEW YEARS INDEED! Thank you as well.

That is awesome that you are running your group through "The Night Below." I think Carl Sargent is terribly underrated as a game designer. Every section bubbles with ideas and inspiration! I found that there is *plenty* of work for you, as the DM, to do, each and every week or game session. Detailing the various NPC's, exploring sub-plots, and on and on. That thing is incredibly entertaining to just read, and work on, quite apart and separate from playing the group through it. I know you will enjoy it immensely, Thorn.

You should post a weekly campaign Series detailing your group's adventures, and, just as interesting, a kind of "Design Notes" on your part of all that you are doing as the DM. Discussing things in the campaign books that you love, things you changed, and how such changes were dealt with by the players as they explore the fantastic campaign module!

It is mind blowing that it has been what? 25, 30 years since I ran "The Night Below"--and I still have huge memories of how that part of the campaign went. It was enormously inspiring and impactful.

I also recommend that you resist the temptation to "railroad" the group through all the secondary or supplemental encounters, to speed them to the "exciting parts." Let them not just explore, and chase down plots and things at their own pace, but actively support and encourage the group to develop the campaign and really dig into stuff. Your campaign will be richly rewarded for doing so! Watch how different relationships develop, how politics are affected, and even the cultural environment is altered. Trading posts, welcoming new tribes or settlements, making alliances with Gnomes, Elves, Centaurs, what have you. It will blow your mind the depth and scope that can be developed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's a great idea. I think I'll post on the forum once we get going.

And Carl Sargent's stuff is great. I run in Greyhawk and I love his Greyhawk wars stuff.

Quote from: jhkim on January 04, 2024, 04:21:17 PM

Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2024, 05:17:09 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 30, 2023, 04:03:08 PM
I'm curious - how do they keep it from feeling repetitive to keep going through the same dungeon? I glanced over your session accounts, S'mon - which look fun, but it's hard to get a bigger picture from those.

I think different dungeon factions help, an outer world that feels alive, and important goals within the megadungeon. So do BBEGs, like the Nixthisis in Stonehell. Proactive players, eg my son is an empire builder with a growing cult of Yig in Stonehell spanning several levels and temples, while my friend Matt's Paladin PC Macready is determined to map the Barrowmaze.

Something that helps a lot is not thinking in terms of kill every monster. Even undead aren't always hostile (esp if the GM is getting bored of fights)  ;D. Macready befriended the Barrowmaze mongrelmen, eventually escorting the tribe to a new home.

It sounds like these megadungeons are quite different in design from the old Judge's Guild modules, as well as some modern megadungeons. The one modern megadungeon I have is Castle Gargantua - which is a 2014 OSR adventure, but it's still just lots and lots of rooms with encounters - rather than having higher-level structure with varying goals and politics and such.

Basically, I'm curious about what makes a good megadungeon module, for whatever one's view is.

I think factions are really important, especially competing factions like the Vrilya vs Three Eyed King in Stonehell, or the Orcus vs Set cults in Barrowmaze. And PCs should generally have the opportunity to ally with certain factions - Barrowmaze is a bit weak on this, but Stonehell has numerous potentially friendly factions.

Quote from: S'mon on January 05, 2024, 05:49:58 AM
I think factions are really important, especially competing factions like the Vrilya vs Three Eyed King in Stonehell, or the Orcus vs Set cults in Barrowmaze. And PCs should generally have the opportunity to ally with certain factions - Barrowmaze is a bit weak on this, but Stonehell has numerous potentially friendly factions.

As with any large dungeon, even if it isn't quite mega size.  Which leads to the supporting point, that there should be multiple entrances to the dungeon, somewhat proportionate to its size.  Most of those factions will have a way to interact with the outside world, if only occasionally or under duress, without having to go through the territory of another faction.  This aspect naturally leads to the players can skip part of the dungeon, assuming they want to and can find those other entrances.  Likewise, when they do manage to find one that is hidden, it is a meaningful discovery.  Barrowmaze has a good assortment of entrances.

That all means that the GM may not use the whole dungeon.  I've never seen that as a bad thing. 

IMO, for mega-dungeons you only need a few things:
1. the dungeon
2. a base of operations nearby
That's it.
the mega-dungeon: how simple or complex you want to make it is entirely up to you. There's no right of wrong in this. You can use premade/purchase stuff or you can design your own. Me? I'm lazy and use premade almost exclusively. Sure, I'll modify things here and there from the original, but overall I like using other people's material. I'm not so arrogant to think my homebrew stuff is any better than a published mega-dungeon.
Base of operations: can be anyplace you want. Lately, I've used the city of Greyhawk as the base of operations, with Castle Greyhawk about a half day's travel nearby. it's not that turd of a dungeon published back in the 80s. I'm using Joseph Bloch's Castle of the Mad Arch-mage Beta version (before he had to edit the copyrighted material out before publishing).
I have a whole bunch of NPC they can interact with in the city and I leave it up to the PCs to get into or create any political highjinks. No need for a plot for my group, They can create enough turmoil and chaos on their own.

I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

I am a bit biased as I wrote a whole book on HOW TO MEGA DUNGEON with Greg Svenson and D.H. Boggs.

The new generation of 5e players do not truly understand the concept of underworld as being more than a bunch of caves. It is rooted in deeper concepts about exploring the uncanny and supernatural, perhaps even the outer layers of the world of the dead, or hell itself.

The ideas of mindless terror coming from Gothic Horror and Cthulu should be prevalent within the setting as well. No sane person would go to these places.

If you want to run a Mega Dungeon you have to reverse the power structure that has become inherent in newer editions of RPGs, where the player characters themselves have now become the most powerful and supernatural, if not entirely bizarre, and return to having groups of weakling humans and their allies delving into the unknown spirit world of darkness.

As the game referee, your goal is to do what is uncalled for in contemporary RPGs and try to trigger dark feelings in your players by exposing them to uncomfortable experiences within the game. The entire concept of 'Safety' needs to be throw out the window, as the point of these Mega Dungeons is to create danger and unease.

As far as mega dungeons are concerned, our Tonisborg Dungeon is one of the oldest ever. Even Pundit says his game group is fascinated by running in an old old dungeon, using minimal rules, where you have to create your own map as you explore.

By introducing the uncanny into the setting you both evoke and invoke terror.

"You come to a room and you see some shiny objects in the middle of the floor... As you draw closer you realize the largest object is a pair of primitive looking pliers... scatted nearby are what appear to be freshly pulled teeth..."

If this is the play style that interests you, we still have the remaining 15 hard bound copes of our book for sale on our site. You can also order much cheaper paper backs.

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Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

LOL, Persimmon. You made me laugh. hehehe Especially the kill 'em all. That's how I think my players will be when they find the splinter groups of Illithids and derro.....I could be wrong though. I kinda hope the players will turn evil against each other...we'll see.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

This.

Hard to imagine dungeon-dwellers that a good party would ally with. Manipulate, maybe.

Quote from: Baron on January 05, 2024, 02:29:34 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

This.

Hard to imagine dungeon-dwellers that a good party would ally with. Manipulate, maybe.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend especially when they have food, torches, and overwhelming amount of forces to kill you.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 29, 2023, 11:57:30 AM
   I was curious what some of you guys use mega dungeons for (IME I will use a level or two and players leave do other stuff and maybe return later...or die when they go somewhere they were not ready to be) at least those of you who use them.   I was also looking for a recommended list of same old school flavor preferred.  System does not much matter as I use SW and GURPS these days for our table top and I can convert creatures/situations from most any system to those on the fly. 

My favorite mega-dungeons:  https://grodog.blogspot.com/2020/06/grodog-favorite-mega-dungeons.html

My players still prefer mega-dungeon play, and are now en route back to the City of Greyhawk from Dyvers, so that they can recommence their delving into Castle Greyhawk, having been away from it for a bit of city adventuring in Hardby and Dyvers, with attendant wilderness travels in between.

Allan.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

Greetings!

Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

What do you think about that, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 05, 2024, 08:12:09 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

Greetings!

Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

What do you think about that, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Basically, I'm all about the epic struggle between good and evil.  I don't care for morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in my rpgs.  The real world has too much of that.  I like playing good characters that actively destroy evil and take their stuff.  When I write stuff, there are sometimes factions, but usually different evil factions, all of whom should be put down sooner or later, and maybe some good allies, like the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien.  But nobody I've ever played with has been real deep into factions or super heavy role-playing.  That's just the backdrop to kicking ass or running away.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2024, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 05, 2024, 08:12:09 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 05, 2024, 08:38:03 AM
I'm personally not a huge fan of lots of factions.  Any more than three is too many IMO.  It's one of the issues with "Arden Vul," in addition to the sheer density of the writing and backstory there.  I suppose this comes from my experience with Temple of Elemental Evil back in the day.  Sure, there were factions.  But our policy was simply to kill them all.  We don't negotiate with cultists.

Greetings!

Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

What do you think about that, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Basically, I'm all about the epic struggle between good and evil.  I don't care for morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in my rpgs.  The real world has too much of that.  I like playing good characters that actively destroy evil and take their stuff.  When I write stuff, there are sometimes factions, but usually different evil factions, all of whom should be put down sooner or later, and maybe some good allies, like the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien.  But nobody I've ever played with has been real deep into factions or super heavy role-playing.  That's just the backdrop to kicking ass or running away.

That's kind of sad to me.  Some of the most fun I've had at the table is running groups that aren't evil but are drawn into conflict due to opposing needs.  Running the game as an investigation game, the party seeks out the root causes of the problems that bring them to loggerheads and sorts it out.  My favorite cliche is that an evil mastermind has something to gain if these two groups destroying each other.

  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   ::)

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

Quote from: BadApple on January 07, 2024, 10:37:29 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   ::)

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

No problem.  FWIW, Sci-FI and futuristic RPGs do nothing for me and I detest Planescape with the red hot intensity of a thousand suns.  So I'm not sure I'm missing anything.  Plain and simple, in life and in gaming, I don't like factions. 

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 07, 2024, 10:37:29 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   ::)

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

No problem.  FWIW, Sci-FI and futuristic RPGs do nothing for me and I detest Planescape with the red hot intensity of a thousand suns.  So I'm not sure I'm missing anything.  Plain and simple, in life and in gaming, I don't like factions.

Greetings!

*Laughing* I also have zero interest in Sci-Fi or Futuristic games. And I also hated Planescape.

Imagine that? *Laughing*

I've wondered about that. I just feel numb about Sci-Fi and Futuristic RPG's. I can't even muster up the passion to really hate them. I just have zero interest in them. I've never been into them, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 07, 2024, 10:37:29 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.  If I want long intrigue, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, and still not negotiate with cultists.  Just not what we like.  So in a mega-dungeon we kill things and take their stuff.  If there are prisoners to rescue, we rescue them.

But factions?  Don't really care.  I have plenty of them to deal with at work and they all suck.  Most of them are selfish and evil but delude themselves into thinking they're somehow forces for social justice.  Why bring them into my fun?

Yes, that's what I meant by running factions; finding the most bland thing anyone could ever have a disagreement with and make that the central hook of the game.   ::)

Or you could do something cool.  A dragon that protects one village but raids another village for livestock and the occasional child to feed on.  Two families with their young men and retainers periodically showing up dead in the town square with no apparent cause of death.  An iron mine where the miners dug down into a dwarven tunnel and unleash a wraith. 

There are so many ways that non evil factions can add to both the world building and the adventure possibilities.  Not all of them need to come down to fixing the problems between them either.  Also, unwillingness to deal with factions cuts you off from some really great RPG.  Cyberpunk, Star Trek, Planescape, and others are run by factions. 

You do you, I'm sorry I can't share what I think is some of the best RP experiences with you.

No problem.  FWIW, Sci-FI and futuristic RPGs do nothing for me and I detest Planescape with the red hot intensity of a thousand suns.  So I'm not sure I'm missing anything.  Plain and simple, in life and in gaming, I don't like factions.

Greetings!

*Laughing* I also have zero interest in Sci-Fi or Futuristic games. And I also hated Planescape.

Imagine that? *Laughing*

I've wondered about that. I just feel numb about Sci-Fi and Futuristic RPG's. I can't even muster up the passion to really hate them. I just have zero interest in them. I've never been into them, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thirded. If sci-fi/futuristic is your jam, by all means, have at it. But I've never liked to spend my free time playing them.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2024, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 05, 2024, 08:12:09 PM
Persimmon, what don't you like about factions?

Factions would seem to offer scope for lots of roleplaying, tangled alliances and motivations, potential new allies--or enemies!--and, as well, a kind of foundation that the DM can use to increase the player's immersion in-game, and also to enhance their knowledge and lore of the campaign world.

Basically, I'm all about the epic struggle between good and evil.  I don't care for morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in my rpgs.  The real world has too much of that.  I like playing good characters that actively destroy evil and take their stuff.  When I write stuff, there are sometimes factions, but usually different evil factions, all of whom should be put down sooner or later, and maybe some good allies, like the Elves of Rivendell or Lorien.  But nobody I've ever played with has been real deep into factions or super heavy role-playing.  That's just the backdrop to kicking ass or running away.

It sounds like maybe you're disappointed in lack of heavy role-playing. Sorry that you haven't gotten that.

To me, negotiation doesn't imply lack of good and evil. Like, using the example of elves feels odd to me, since in Lord of the Rings, negotiating was a huge part of the story. Bringing Rivendell, Rohan, Gondor, Lorien, and the Ents together was critical. Merry and Pippin convincing Treebeard was pivotal, for example.

My current D&D campaign is similar to Middle Earth or King Arthur in having clear good and evil, but there is still a lot of place for negotiation. There are borderline folk on the edge of being tempted to evil, and there are uncertain allies like good-aligned fey. One of the PCs greatest victories was in capturing a mercenary mastermind who worked for an evil cult, and they successfully offered him enough reward to get him to turn on them and give all the information he had.

Gillespie's dungeons like Barrowmaze tend to have all-evil factions and are well suited to a 'kill them all' approach, especially if you use a higher powered ruleset like 5e D&D or 1e AD&D. B/X based games tend to have squishy PCs.

Quote from: S'mon on January 08, 2024, 06:44:38 AM
Gillespie's dungeons like Barrowmaze tend to have all-evil factions and are well suited to a 'kill them all' approach, especially if you use a higher powered ruleset like 5e D&D or 1e AD&D. B/X based games tend to have squishy PCs.

Which is a big reason why I like all of Greg's mega-dungeons.  I think we have the same underlying approach to D&D.  What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2024, 08:46:01 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 08, 2024, 06:44:38 AM
Gillespie's dungeons like Barrowmaze tend to have all-evil factions and are well suited to a 'kill them all' approach, especially if you use a higher powered ruleset like 5e D&D or 1e AD&D. B/X based games tend to have squishy PCs.

Which is a big reason why I like all of Greg's mega-dungeons.  I think we have the same underlying approach to D&D.  What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

I'm sorry if I came across wrong.  I'm not trying to convince you to start loving something you don't.  I get it, not everyone likes Italian sausage and black olives on their pizza.

To me, good factions are some of the best elements of RPG experience and I was relating my perspective.  As a player I love them and as a GM I do a lot to make good ones to make the games I run as good as I can.  I really do mean it, it makes me a little sad when something I like so much can't be share with someone i like. 

Quote from: BadApple on January 08, 2024, 09:10:42 AM

To me, good factions are some of the best elements of RPG experience and I was relating my perspective.  As a player I love them and as a GM I do a lot to make good ones to make the games I run as good as I can.  I really do mean it, it makes me a little sad when something I like so much can't be share with someone i like.

Find myself once again in the fuzzy middle.  :D  I love factions--but only in fantasy--somewhere between epic and sword and sorcery.  No sci/fi, no present day, very little historical, etc.  Though I'm probably closer to Persimmon than the rest, in how it plays out.  I make the game difficult enough that players are usually willing to engage with factions occasionally for an edge, but they do it for the edge, not because they love the intrigue.

Greetings!

I like having Factions, and roleplaying. I also like blood and thunder action and war.

I don't mind having friends that don't like Factions, and are not much into roleplaying. That really is ok. I have players that *love* roleplaying, politics, romance! LOL. And other players are more like, "SHARK, hand me the fire, bro, for my cigar. Let's get into this. KILL THEM! CRUSH THEM ALL!" *Laughing*

My best friend likes ham and fucking pineapple on pizza. No, I refuse to eat Hawaiian pizza. That is blasphemous. Such is food, of some kind, but it isn't PIZZA. I'm old school like that, too. Pizza is pepperoni, sausage, onions, tomatoes, mushrooms, peppers. Red sauce, or white, either can be fine.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2024, 08:46:01 AM
What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

You can absolutely enjoy whatever you enjoy, in adventures or pizza.

On the other hand, you've mischaracterized what other people enjoy, with posts like this:

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.

No one here is saying they like negotiating over water rights -- particularly in the context of megadungeons. But some people do like tactics and strategy to their combat that includes things like shifting alliances and risk of betrayal. Also, intelligence gathering and scouting.

For example - it's not a megadungeon, but my favorite introductory adventure for D&D is "The Sunless Citadel" that I've run several times. It has a rivalry/war going on between the kobolds and the goblins. I've had two runs where the PCs clash but then ally with the kobolds, leading to a big fight scene where the PCs and the kobolds overrun the goblin position, divide the spoils, and the PCs then have access to the lower levels. I'm not saying you have to like that, but it's not water rights, and the focus is still on combat.

Quote from: jhkim on January 08, 2024, 02:33:15 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2024, 08:46:01 AM
What's funny about this thread is all these people trying to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and somehow missing out on this great experience I have no interest in.  We always wanted to be ass kicking heroes, not diplomats or negotiators.  Hammering out the details of a peace treaty is by no means interesting to me in an RPG.  A short audience with the king to determine the problem that needs fixing?  That's fine.  But combat has generally been the centerpiece of our games.  That doesn't mean there's never any interaction with NPCs.  But it's usually the interludes, not the focus.

You can absolutely enjoy whatever you enjoy, in adventures or pizza.

On the other hand, you've mischaracterized what other people enjoy, with posts like this:

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 10:05:24 AM
  Adventure Hook:  "Let's negotiate over water rights for our fields."  Yawn.  I seriously can't imagine any group I've ever played with getting excited about stuff like this.  That's just not our style.

No one here is saying they like negotiating over water rights -- particularly in the context of megadungeons. But some people do like tactics and strategy to their combat that includes things like shifting alliances and risk of betrayal. Also, intelligence gathering and scouting.

For example - it's not a megadungeon, but my favorite introductory adventure for D&D is "The Sunless Citadel" that I've run several times. It has a rivalry/war going on between the kobolds and the goblins. I've had two runs where the PCs clash but then ally with the kobolds, leading to a big fight scene where the PCs and the kobolds overrun the goblin position, divide the spoils, and the PCs then have access to the lower levels. I'm not saying you have to like that, but it's not water rights, and the focus is still on combat.

Yeah, we'd just kill the kobolds first, then the goblins.  Then claim our water rights.

Quote from: jhkim on January 04, 2024, 04:21:17 PM
Basically, I'm curious about what makes a good megadungeon module, for whatever one's view is.

In the blog post* I shared earlier, I outline the criteria I like in a mega-dungeon:

- Best Environments to Explore and Map
- Most-Fun Encounters
- Most-Fun Puzzles, Enigmas, and Centerpiece Encounters
- Coolest Maps
- Best Presentation in Print
- Pulls It All Together

* at https://grodog.blogspot.com/2020/06/grodog-favorite-mega-dungeons.html and inspired by an old thread here at https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/best-published-megadungeon/

Quote from: Baron on January 04, 2024, 04:36:36 PM
I always get thrown off by the "mega-" designation.

I guess I would count Gary's Greyhawk as a mega. Dave's Blackmoor. Barker's Underworld below Jakalla. But only those who played with Gary, Dave or Barker ever saw those.

More of these historical dungeons are being published each year, although it is sometimes a very piecemeal process (in particular with Castle Greyhawk). Of the original Greyhawk levels, I've seen between 20-30 or so, with most of those coming from Rob Kuntz's El Raja Key Archive of manuscript scans, alongside the published levels by Gary and Rob.

And on the Barker side, the Tekumel Foundation is making headway on publishing the Jakallan Underworld levels, too; and Arneson's maps were well-documented in The First Fantasy Campaign too.

Quote from: Baron on January 04, 2024, 04:36:36 PM
If we look at what was published during Gygaxian-era D&D, there was nothing I would consider as even close to mega. Dungeons, and settings. A series of discrete adventure locations. But that's all.

I think that's totally fair. TSR never published an actual mega-dungeon during Gary's tenure, with T1-4 being the closest thing until the Ruins of Undermountain and WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins were done during the 2e era. (Caverns of Thracia and Dark Tower are better examples of mega-dungeons than T1-4 was, and predated it, of course!).

Allan.