TheRPGSite

I intend this thread to be a place to drop whatever medieval occult or folkloric information people come across that could potentially be useful to people's games.

So in the Baopuzi I came across an external alchemy recipe for Ninefold Radiance Elixir. The recipe results in portions with a total 25 color variants(?) with various effects. Some are given:

• The blue one raises the dead, provided they have only been dead for 3 or less days
• The yellow one makes you invisible among other things
• The black one has some manner of conjuration effect

Such an item could be cool as a high level Chinese external alchemy preparation or as a magic item, depending on how you feel about limited raise dead capabilities in a Medieval Authentic game.

Also I have seen a Shaivite Immobilization Tantra which roots foes to the spot with creeping vines, roots, or other plant limbs. In this the user would put white Abrus Precatorious seeds in a human skull cup filled with soil, then pour milk over it while chanting mantras.

For European stuff, the area in the Alps around Tyrol seems to have quite a bit of interesting folklore: A nymph in a lake Karersee, Orks (local mountain daemons), forests full of giants and woodwoses, dragons, and according to High Medieval Chivalric Romances/Poems about Dietrich von Bern at least 3-4 Dwarven kingdoms under various mountains more civilized than the typical L&D dwarves of medieval folklore. These dwarf holds are usually depicted as pagan (with the exception of the one in Virginal which is apparently Christian) and allied with the giants. In an early version of one of the stories, the dwarf hold of King Laurin is more or less wiped out by Dietrich von Bern and his 3 companions (including also Witege, half-elf son of Weyland the Smith) in the days of Attila the Hun. What's become of it could be an interesting adventure location.

All very cool stuff!

One of the things that makes me sad is so much of fantasy RPG material just ignores folklore that doesn't produce monsters or provide power.  Here's a few of my favorites.  (I am not an academic in the field, it's just stuff I picked up while reading over the years.  If I get it wrong, sorry.)

Brownies:  Brownies are a type of elf creature usually described as small people between 6" and 24" tall with mischievous personalities and some magical abilities.  They come from Germanic folklore and are common throughout western Europe, including Germany, France, and the British Isles.  Depending on local variants, they can be pranksters that can be bribed with treats or wooden buttons to behave.  In other places, they can be a source of minor but continuous misfortune such as minor illness, milk cows going dry, or tools breaking. 

Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

Water:  Many cultures have looked at water as having magical or spiritual properties.  Frequently, bodies of water are seen as being gateways between our world and other planes or worlds.  Celtic, Germanic, and Norse folklore had very strong beliefs and taboos associated with water and magic, believing that it could be very powerful but also extremely dangerous as it could connect to malevolent creatures beyond our world. 

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
One of the things that makes me sad is so much of fantasy RPG material just ignores folklore that doesn't produce monsters or provide power.  Here's a few of my favorites.  (I am not an academic in the field, it's just stuff I picked up while reading over the years.  If I get it wrong, sorry.)

My last three adventures have prominently been about huaca or sacred places in Incan belief. These are usually marked by an unusual landmark, and that spot is a very minor deity. So, for example, these were the three huacas in the capital city.

QuoteThe Puma's Head - site of the Upper Temple of Inti and the fortress citadel

• This sacred site is known for rare displays of great power. Pachakuti built a magical fortress around it, including a flying citadel that rises above it.
• In the temple and citadel, all spell ranges and durations are doubled, and arcana or other magical research rolls have advantage.

The Puma's Heart - site of the Lower Temple of Inti

• This sacred site is known for enlightenment and healing for people of the empire who come to pray here. The Heart gives strength and aids in divination.
• On temple grounds, any spells for healing or divination can be cast at 1 level higher than the slot used. Further, all strength rolls are at advantage (including saves and attacks).

The Puma's Belly - site of the national square and temple of Viracocha

• This sacred site is known for omens and visions, seen as rising from the damp and now sandy ground. The square is the economic and diplomatic center of the empire, through which massive trade and diplomatic delegations pass.
• In the square and temple, any spells of earth or water can be cast at 2 levels higher than the slot used. All wisdom rolls are at advantage (including saves and spells).

Encountering the huacas was a major point in each of the adventures.

Still in a Chinese mood, so have some selected creatures for a Chinese bestiary:

The Bashe (巴蛇) is a giant constrictor snake which preys upon elephants. It will disgorge the bones after 3 years time and its flesh can be eaten to prevent heart and stomach diseases. It presumably originates in a land to the southwest of China.

The Egui (餓鬼) is the Chinese Hungry Ghost equivalent to the Preta or Gaki.

The Yecha (夜叉) is a Yakshasa, but in China (Yasha in Japan).  8) The males are often portrayed as more stout and ugly, while the females are of more human height and beautiful.

The Pixiu (貔貅), called Tao Ba in the Han Dynasty, is a fierce auspicious creature which lives off a diet of precious metals and stones and is therefore associated with wealth and warding off evil. The male has one horn and is called Tianlu; the female has two horns and is called Bixie. They have draconic heads, lion-like bodies and wings. Often depicted in guardian statues.

The Xiezhi (獬豸) is an intelligent and righteous one-horned beast like a mix of a lion and some sort of ungulate. It is a symbol of Chinese law and was said to ram wrongful parties in disputes or fights. Some say it devours the corrupt and understands human speech.  There is also a Han dynasty source mentioning the emperor and his court hunting them bizarrely enough.

The Paoxiao (狍鴞) is a man-eating monster in the northern mountains (Mount Gouwu?). It has a goat-like body, feet like clawed human hands and a human-like face with sharp teeth but without eyes. It's eyes are on its flanks and its cry sounds like that of a human child presumably to lure prey.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f0789cb01889540442521dcdc31a715a/cf0ae2c6a5c11eef-55/s1280x1920/64616aa7704c8dbe351b5c3f647817922eb9ec88.jpg)

The Taotie (饕餮) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with gluttony. It is associated with the designs found on Shang and Zhou bronzeware, particularly cauldrons. According to Lu Buwei in the Warring States period Taotie is only a head which eats people, without a body it cannot swallow, but it harms them nonetheless.

The Taowu (檮杌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with ignorance. It appears as a beast with tiger-like claws, a human-like face with the tusks of a boar, and a long tail. It is said to live in the western wilds of China (a strange encounter off the Silk Road?). It is vicious, stubborn and utterly untamable. One account says it can divine the future, it may use this ability to lead men astray.

The Qiongqi (窮奇) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with underhandedness. It appears like a fusion of an ox and a tiger with wings, another account makes it's fur akin to sharp quills. Its cry sounds like the howl of a dog. It is a man-eating beast which especially devours the righteous and those who wear long untied hair. If it encounters a wicked man it will share the prey it has caught with him. It is intelligent and understands the human tongue. It dwells in the mountains of the north and west, for example the Shaanxi region. In the Han dynasty it was invoked in theurgy against Gu sorcery.

The Hundun (渾敦/渾沌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with chaos. Its appearance is quite peculiar, having no eyes or ears, nor an apparent mouth or nose though there are accounts of it eating. Its body is red like cinnabar.  It doesn't know right from wrong and may well attack the righteous and serve the wicked. In the Shanhaijing it is said to be the god Dijiang and dwell in the west on Mt. Tianshan (those mountains extend to not too far from Samarkand) where it sings and dances.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Hundun.JPG/220px-Hundun.JPG)

The Aoyin (傲因) is a man-eating beast said to dwell in the Three Dangers Mountains to the west, these are often identified with the mountains near Dunhuang where the Mogao caves are. It resembles an ox but with long white fur, four horns, and sharp teeth. This name is also used in the Shenyijing to describe a creature  in the desolate west which seems to be synonymous with a ghul.

The Xieju or Geju/Heju (猲狙) a wolf-like man-eating monster from the eastern mountains. It has a reddish head and rat-like beady eyes. Its cry sounds like a boar.

The Bai Ze (白泽) a wise beast of Chinese mythology which allegedly gave a book to the Yellow Emperor containing knowledge of all supernatural beings and the spells to counter them. It is capable of speech. It resembles an ox-lion hybrid with a dragon-like face. It has nine eyes, 3 on it's face and three on each flank. It also has six horns.
(https://www.rosemarybandini.com/wp-content/uploads/bfi_thumb/05-Hakutaku-nosxewagf8089jcr74of30xs24clyztc1rn864elfk.jpg)

The Yanlu* (炎顱?) is a monster which dwells in the western mountains. It is only active one day every six months when it comes down from the mountain to hunt (usually people and livestock); the rest of the year it hibernates. When it is awake its fur hardens making it invulnerable to normal weapons.

The Shanxiao (山魈) is a mountain sprite which resembles a wild man or ape man. In most depictions it has only one, often backwards-facing, leg and in some only one eye and/or two small horns. They are said to catch and live off of freshwater crustaceans and frogs. It is said that they may attack a person at night, drown people in mountain streams, steal from humans or throw stones. Some people worship them as mountain gods and may be rewarded with wealth. In Fujian, Zhejiang and She it is said the Shanxiao may possess red caps of Invisibility (not unlike western faeries). Many accounts say they can be driven off with the sound of popping bamboo in a fire or firecrackers.

The Xingxing (猩猩), Jueyuan (玃猿), or Feifei (狒狒) are a race of wild ape men which live in the mountains. Their blood may be used as a purple dye or drank to imbue the ability to see invisible spirits. They were often said to attack people, steal things (especially alcohol of which they are fond), and carry off human women as mates; the females sometimes would similarly capture human men. They are able to use human speech to a limited extent. They have been associated with the mountains of Shaanxi, ancient Shu's southwestern mountains, Shennongjia in Hebei, Fengxi, and likely other regions.

There are countless others like the 火鼠 fire rat, tiangou, xiao bird, Chimei, Wang Liang, various animal spirits/xian (like foxes and snakes of course), various ghost types, feng/ tai sui, the well-known Qilin, langgui 狼鬼, Guhuo Bird 姑獲鳥, etc.
There are also strange human variants like dog heads or the southern Luotou people whose heads detach at night like the Japanese Nukekubi. These are said to live from Lingnan to parts of Vietnam and Laos.

Many creatures in Chinese folklore tend to have medicinal or magical uses I've found. The fire rats' hide may be used to make fire resistant garb for example. The fire rat is apparently recorded in Persian sources as well

The Shanhaijing and other books overflow with good stuff.

*The yanlu is something in my notes for which I can no longer find a source. Though I swore I found an excerpt of a Chinese classic mentioning it now I find only Taiwanese CRPG and medical articles. I don't remember what form it took in my reading, but in the CRPG's it resembles a three headed wolf-like monster.

Oops. Accidental post please remove

Quote from: WERDNA on December 18, 2023, 03:05:40 AM
Still in a Chinese mood, so have some selected creatures for a Chinese bestiary:

The Bashe (巴蛇) is a giant constrictor snake which preys upon elephants. It will disgorge the bones after 3 years time and its flesh can be eaten to prevent heart and stomach diseases. It presumably originates in a land to the southwest of China.

The Egui (餓鬼) is the Chinese Hungry Ghost equivalent to the Preta or Gaki.

The Yecha (夜叉) is a Yakshasa, but in China (Yasha in Japan).  8) The males are often portrayed as more stout and ugly, while the females are of more human height and beautiful.

The Pixiu (貔貅), called Tao Ba in the Han Dynasty, is a fierce auspicious creature which lives off a diet of precious metals and stones and is therefore associated with wealth and warding off evil. The male has one horn and is called Tianlu; the female has two horns and is called Bixie. They have draconic heads, lion-like bodies and wings. Often depicted in guardian statues.

The Xiezhi (獬豸) is an intelligent and righteous one-horned beast like a mix of a lion and some sort of ungulate. It is a symbol of Chinese law and was said to ram wrongful parties in disputes or fights. Some say it devours the corrupt and understands human speech.  There is also a Han dynasty source mentioning the emperor and his court hunting them bizarrely enough.

The Paoxiao (狍鴞) is a man-eating monster in the northern mountains (Mount Gouwu?). It has a goat-like body, feet like clawed human hands and a human-like face with sharp teeth but without eyes. It's eyes are on its flanks and its cry sounds like that of a human child presumably to lure prey.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f0789cb01889540442521dcdc31a715a/cf0ae2c6a5c11eef-55/s1280x1920/64616aa7704c8dbe351b5c3f647817922eb9ec88.jpg)

The Taotie (饕餮) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with gluttony. It is associated with the designs found on Shang and Zhou bronzeware, particularly cauldrons. According to Lu Buwei in the Warring States period Taotie is only a head which eats people, without a body it cannot swallow, but it harms them nonetheless.

The Taowu (檮杌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with ignorance. It appears as a beast with tiger-like claws, a human-like face with the tusks of a boar, and a long tail. It is said to live in the western wilds of China (a strange encounter off the Silk Road?). It is vicious, stubborn and utterly untamable. One account says it can divine the future, it may use this ability to lead men astray.

The Qiongqi (窮奇) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with underhandedness. It appears like a fusion of an ox and a tiger with wings, another account makes it's fur akin to sharp quills. Its cry sounds like the howl of a dog. It is a man-eating beast which especially devours the righteous and those who wear long untied hair. If it encounters a wicked man it will share the prey it has caught with him. It is intelligent and understands the human tongue. It dwells in the mountains of the north and west, for example the Shaanxi region. In the Han dynasty it was invoked in theurgy against Gu sorcery.

The Hundun (渾敦/渾沌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with chaos. Its appearance is quite peculiar, having no eyes or ears, nor an apparent mouth or nose though there are accounts of it eating. Its body is red like cinnabar.  It doesn't know right from wrong and may well attack the righteous and serve the wicked. In the Shanhaijing it is said to be the god Dijiang and dwell in the west on Mt. Tianshan (those mountains extend to not too far from Samarkand) where it sings and dances.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Hundun.JPG/220px-Hundun.JPG)

The Aoyin (傲因) is a man-eating beast said to dwell in the Three Dangers Mountains to the west, these are often identified with the mountains near Dunhuang where the Mogao caves are. It resembles an ox but with long white fur, four horns, and sharp teeth. This name is also used in the Shenyijing to describe a creature  in the desolate west which seems to be synonymous with a ghul.

The Xieju or Geju/Heju (猲狙) a wolf-like man-eating monster from the eastern mountains. It has a reddish head and rat-like beady eyes. Its cry sounds like a boar.

The Bai Ze (白泽) a wise beast of Chinese mythology which allegedly gave a book to the Yellow Emperor containing knowledge of all supernatural beings and the spells to counter them. It is capable of speech. It resembles an ox-lion hybrid with a dragon-like face. It has nine eyes, 3 on it's face and three on each flank. It also has six horns.
(https://www.rosemarybandini.com/wp-content/uploads/bfi_thumb/05-Hakutaku-nosxewagf8089jcr74of30xs24clyztc1rn864elfk.jpg)

The Yanlu* (炎顱?) is a monster which dwells in the western mountains. It is only active one day every six months when it comes down from the mountain to hunt (usually people and livestock); the rest of the year it hibernates. When it is awake its fur hardens making it invulnerable to normal weapons.

The Shanxiao (山魈) is a mountain sprite which resembles a wild man or ape man. In most depictions it has only one, often backwards-facing, leg and in some only one eye and/or two small horns. They are said to catch and live off of freshwater crustaceans and frogs. It is said that they may attack a person at night, drown people in mountain streams, steal from humans or throw stones. Some people worship them as mountain gods and may be rewarded with wealth. In Fujian, Zhejiang and She it is said the Shanxiao may possess red caps of Invisibility (not unlike western faeries). Many accounts say they can be driven off with the sound of popping bamboo in a fire or firecrackers.

The Xingxing (猩猩), Jueyuan (玃猿), or Feifei (狒狒) are a race of wild ape men which live in the mountains. Their blood may be used as a purple dye or drank to imbue the ability to see invisible spirits. They were often said to attack people, steal things (especially alcohol of which they are fond), and carry off human women as mates; the females sometimes would similarly capture human men. They are able to use human speech to a limited extent. They have been associated with the mountains of Shaanxi, ancient Shu's southwestern mountains, Shennongjia in Hebei, Fengxi, and likely other regions.

There are countless others like the 火鼠 fire rat, tiangou, xiao bird, Chimei, Wang Liang, various animal spirits/xian (like foxes and snakes of course), various ghost types, feng/ tai sui, the well-known Qilin, langgui 狼鬼, Guhuo Bird 姑獲鳥, etc.
There are also strange human variants like dog heads or the southern Luotou people whose heads detach at night like the Japanese Nukekubi. These are said to live from Lingnan to parts of Vietnam and Laos.

Many creatures in Chinese folklore tend to have medicinal or magical uses I've found. The fire rats' hide may be used to make fire resistant garb for example. The fire rat is apparently recorded in Persian sources as well

The Shanhaijing and other books overflow with good stuff.

*The yanlu is something in my notes for which I can no longer find a source. Though I swore I found an excerpt of a Chinese classic mentioning it now I find only Taiwanese CRPG and medical articles. I don't remember what form it took in my reading, but in the CRPG's it resembles a three headed wolf-like monster.

Some of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AM
Some of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

They are viewed as being lucky, too. Used like maneki neko to get customers.

Yes, the statues have huge nuts. I have seen a number of tanuki and fortunately the real ones don't have the same problem.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/5e/1a/3a5e1afb839c7e10f82049ff7054e215.jpg)

Quote from: Lynn on December 19, 2023, 01:31:25 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

They are viewed as being lucky, too. Used like maneki neko to get customers.

Yes, the statues have huge nuts. I have seen a number of tanuki and fortunately the real ones don't have the same problem.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/5e/1a/3a5e1afb839c7e10f82049ff7054e215.jpg)

I did a poor job in relaying the takuni I think.  They have a rep of being lovable rascals that get into mild trouble but generally have good hearts.  There's folk tales of them looking after lost children and helping people find things like lost keys.  I remember a story about a kid that got caught picking a lock and he stated during a confession that the takuni in the area taught him how.

A solid half of Japanese folklore is about real animals and the connection to the supernatural they have.  Foxes, snakes, and monkeys all have tales and beliefs about them.

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 07:35:52 AM

Quote from: Lynn on December 19, 2023, 01:31:25 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

They are viewed as being lucky, too. Used like maneki neko to get customers.

Yes, the statues have huge nuts. I have seen a number of tanuki and fortunately the real ones don't have the same problem.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/5e/1a/3a5e1afb839c7e10f82049ff7054e215.jpg)

I did a poor job in relaying the takuni I think.  They have a rep of being lovable rascals that get into mild trouble but generally have good hearts.  There's folk tales of them looking after lost children and helping people find things like lost keys.  I remember a story about a kid that got caught picking a lock and he stated during a confession that the takuni in the area taught him how.

A solid half of Japanese folklore is about real animals and the connection to the supernatural they have.  Foxes, snakes, and monkeys all have tales and beliefs about them.

Yes. Some of that is influenced from imported folktales but, you also have significant folklore that fits with native Shinto and the eight million gods. Plus long established localities will have their own folklore.

The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap.  Usually this was done to get into mischief and not be caught out as a human.  As with many folktale stories involving magic, you could dispel the transformation by speaking the person's real name.  Local traditions vary as to the competency of the person in wolf form; some stories have it where the werewolf was fully human mentally and others where they were still self aware but had their faculties dimmed to the level of a beast until they took human form.

An interesting aspect of the lore is that the wolf strap become part of the person that uses it.  If it is kept in a warm or cold place, the owner will always feel warm or cold.  Some variants hold that damage done to a wolf strap would be imparted to it's owner as well.

It's fascinating to me that so many cultures have some form of lycanthropy in their folklore.  The Hawaiians have sea turtles that that will transform into children and play with other children on the beach.  Eskimos have as a folklore tale that some seals are actually people and that they can take their seal skin off to engage with other people.  The Japanese of course have the takuni and fox shape shifters but they also had as part of their lore that shinobi could transform into wolves.  Some tribes in Africa see baboons as people with transforming abilities.  Australian aborigines have stories about people that shape shift into snakes.

Quote from: WERDNA on December 19, 2023, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AM
Some of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

The past tense to mean that it was already planned before you posted this.

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap. 

Well, there is more to it than just that. The Hungarian werewolf lore, the especially the vrylakos, is intertwined in vampire lore, as well as the strigoi (withcraft). The witchcraft version is more of what you are talking about. But lore of that region is full of examples of people who are cursed and turn into wolves; sometimes they hide their nature from their families and ultimately attack them. In other cases, they become corpses during the day and can be put to rest with a stake or nail through the heart. So the modern werewolf is only a little bit based on the medieval European werewolf, more on the Lon Cheney movie, with a nice blend of the Hungarian and Rumanian werewolf/vampire lore. The bipedal werewolf could be considered a version of the loup-garou (or loogaroo), a Caribbean and Mississippi delta monster much like a demon, lamia, or rakshasa, which takes its name from the French name for a werewolf.

For a fantastic take on medieval alchemy, I like the old d20 books by Penumbra. Mongoose's d20 Testament is shockingly good for folkloric Bible magic.

I've done some freelance work for Legendary Games, who have put out a Mediterranean monsters book, plus Boricubos (Caribbean and Latin America) and other global folklore stuff. You have your muki, your demon horse face women, and other cool stuff.

Y'all are quite big-brained when it comes to history and mythology, and mythological history and the like, I shall indeed admit. I guess that kind of comes with medieval TTRPG expertise territory, probably, but still... credit where it is due.

The Odontotyrannos Alexander and his men encountered near India according to Medieval accounts is a worthy adversary for a S&C campaign on the southern silk road.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Thomas-de-Kent-Bnf-fr24364-fol54v-dent_tyrant.jpg)

The Skolex Worms of the Indus River are also worth looking into.

There is a forested region in the Kingdom of Norway (historically, it's part of Sweden now) called Alfheim. Supposedly it is called such because it once ruled by a Norse King called Alf the Old in whose line there was no small amount of Elvish blood. It was said that the local nobility who claimed ties with Alf's ancient line were exceptionally good looking due to their elven descent. Alf would have ruled around the 5th century based on his contemporaries in the sagas (probably), but who ruled the generations before? In a fantastical Europe, it would likely have been the elves. Alfheim in Norway would be a good spot for the hidden ruins of ancient elf colonies dating back to antiquity. These isolated spots of decadent, supernatural civilization far beyond the Limes Germanicus could be interesting in a classical Roman game as well if you're foolhardy enough to travel that far beyond the frontiers.

Alfheim is in present-day Bohuslan.

The Mayan culture has a creature called the Xtabay, which would be somewhat similar to a "siren" of the woods. 

The Xtabay appears in front of drunken or unfaithful men to lure them with her uncanny beauty into the woods to lead them to their death by tripping or hitting their head on the Ceiba tree which is considered a sacred tree connecting heaven, earth and the underworld.

Also, they have something called an "Alux" which is a mischievous small creature that is normally invisible and hides objects to play pranks.

To my surprise, it seems it is very similar to the german "Kobold". Which made me wonder where the D&D kobold as a small reptilian creature came from. Japenese media portray the kobold as basically canine folk.

https://abookofcreatures.com/ cross-references a lot of weird creatures with citations and includes fact checking to fix fakelore. A lot of these creatures are weird, particularly when it comes to things like harvesting their body parts for ingredients.

Fearsome critters are my favorite because they're Americana. D&D owes so much to the Old West, so I think there need to be more overt western influences and fearsome critters. Less Lord of the Rings, more Wizard of Oz. Cowboys fighting orcs and snallygasters. But I suppose that's for a different thread

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 09:23:54 PM
To my surprise, it seems it is very similar to the german "Kobold". Which made me wonder where the D&D kobold as a small reptilian creature came from. Japanese media portray the kobold as basically canine folk.

There are similar creatures in almost every culture, it's quite fascinating. As for the appearance, Bell's kobold art in OD&D was gnome-like as per many folkloric depictions. Sutherland depicted them as scaly devil-dog things based on his interpretation of Gary's write up in the AD&D monster manual. WOTC went further and made them reptile guys distantly related to dragons for some reason. Japanese art has them as dogmen because the version of D&D first released in Japan was the Basic set with the very canine Erol Otus art, then Lodoss War and the Japanese ports of Wizardry ran with that direction.

Speaking of dogmen...
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/b480c2d8-3cf7-47c1-9ea1-7b7f6f25d392/de6xher-5b0c405b-8ee4-45b7-a824-537d24c642da.jpg/v1/fill/w_746,h_1071,q_70,strp/31_monsters_challenge__psoglav_by_loneanimator_de6xher-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTgzNyIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2I0ODBjMmQ4LTNjZjctNDdjMS05ZWExLTdiN2Y2ZjI1ZDM5MlwvZGU2eGhlci01YjBjNDA1Yi04ZWU0LTQ1YjctYTgyNC01MzdkMjRjNjQyZGEuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEyODAifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.-zZxh_3q7U5wkvWHo3emhR90zq5JQsKPm5fxVV4HvzU)

The Southern Slavs of the Balkans have a demonic monster called a Psoglav which is dog-headed. They have the one-eyed (some accounts say 3 eyes) head of a dog, body shape of a man, teeth of iron, and the hooves of a horse. It is said they love to feast on human flesh, especially women and children. In addition to eating live people, they may dig up graves to consume corpses not unlike ghouls. It is said they dwell in caves or some presumably subterranean, sunless realm filled with gold and gemstones. Some Slavs say they are associated with the underworld or the Slavic god Veles. Other Slavs insist they are a problem in the far east as well, but I've seen no non-Slavic sources which corroborate this unless they are being conflated with more typical cynocephali.

Incidentally, ancient sources say the Argonauts battled groups of classical cynocephali along the Danube in the Serbia-Hungary area as well. Truly the Slavic lands are dark and full of terrors.

Quote from: WERDNA on January 24, 2024, 11:23:54 PM

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 09:23:54 PM
To my surprise, it seems it is very similar to the german "Kobold". Which made me wonder where the D&D kobold as a small reptilian creature came from. Japanese media portray the kobold as basically canine folk.

There are similar creatures in almost every culture, it's quite fascinating. As for the appearance, Bell's kobold art in OD&D was gnome-like as per many folkloric depictions. Sutherland depicted them as scaly devil-dog things based on his interpretation of Gary's write up in the AD&D monster manual. WOTC went further and made them reptile guys distantly related to dragons for some reason. Japanese art has them as dogmen because the version of D&D first released in Japan was the Basic set with the very canine Erol Otus art, then Lodoss War and the Japanese ports of Wizardry ran with that direction.

THANK YOU! That was very informative!

The forest spirits in Scandinavia are called Skogsra. The most common type in folklore is the Huldra or Hulder. These are generally female faerie beings (the less common males are Huldrekall) which live in the northern forests. She appears as a beautiful woman with a few differences: the tail of a cow or fox, and a hollow opening in her back. The area around and within this "hollow" is compared with a tree and is presumably wooden making these fey plant-woman hybrid beings of a sort. The males may additionally possess furry legs or be outright portrayed as trolls.

In folk tales, the disposition of the creature varies often based on how they are treated, but occasionally they are depicted as malevolent. They can lure people with harp playing, singing, or dancing akin to the elves. On the other hand, if well-treated they may offer helpful knowledge about the forest, help with work, or fishing advice. Several stories give them the strength of ten or so men (sounds dangerous in combat). There are stories of human men marrying them within the Church. In some this results in the loss of their beauty and they become hags; in others they retain their fair countenance and lose only their tails and hollow backs thus becoming human although they may still possess supernatural strength.

***************

The Wusebi/Five Color Paint Brush is an interesting magic item found in Song Dynasty Chinese folk lore. Whatever is painted with this brush becomes real or comes to life if a living thing.

***************

After having read a (Google-translated) article off the University of Tehran's website, today I learned that the Lammasu/Shedu of Mesopotamian and MM1 fame is still relevant to folklore in the medieval period as, under the Persian variant the Gopat/Gopaitioshah, the creatures still appear in Islamic Persian lore in the 13th century text Marzban-nameh. Here it is a bull-demon among the Div/Jinn cast out to live in the wilds and caves. In this new role, it is less like the ancient holy guardian daimon and perhaps more like the related Jewish Shedim. Like the Shedim the Gopat can be more neutral, although plenty if not most are evil.

I've done some reading and decided to make a post on characteristics of pre-modern folklorically accurate Oni.

For those who do not know Oni are hairy, ogrish demonic beings that haunt the wild and spooky places of Japan. In some stories they resemble fairies dancing in the woods and giving boons or curses, but in most they are opponents for the hero to overcome. In Buddhist influenced lore they also torture sinners in Hell. Oni are often supernatural beings or spirits in their own right, but some are the result of a person's soul being tainted with a large amount of evil, hate, envy, etc. and transforming into one (aided by black magic in a few accounts). It's a bit like chaos corruption really.

Oni Characteristics and Powers (could probably makes some good tables from these)

• Oni may be red, blue, green, black or yellow in color (probably other colors as well).
• Oni may have one, two, three or more eyes. Even as many as 15 (or 10,000 in the special case of Dodomeki) has been attested.
• Oni may have anywhere from 3 to 6 digits and varied amounts of horns (maybe even no horn)
• Some Oni have no mouths at all
• Range in size from that of a child (Ko-Oni) to about 7 feet to giants able to swallow a man in one gulp. Size generally correlates to power.
• Oni love eating meat and drinking blood (often human). They also love women and alcohol along with the drunken revelry that comes with.
• Oni may wield various weapons such as tetsubo, mallets, mancatchers, swords, spears, axes, iron staves, sickles, etc.
• Oni have supernatural strength and constitution.
• Some Oni have the power of flight. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Some Oni can survive decapitation as a flying head. (source: Shuten-Doji and Otakemaru)
• Some Oni can pick up and reattach their severed limbs. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Many Oni can transform into both men and women. (source: Ibaraki-Doji, Otakemaru, etc.)
• Some Oni can summon thunder and Lightning.
• Some Oni can cause earthquakes.
• Some Oni can cause disease or bring forth plagues.
• Some Oni can summon strong gales. (source: Fuuki)
• Some Oni can cause floods. (source: Suiki)
• Some Oni can become invisible. (source: Ongyouki)
• Some Oni have hardened, near-invulnerable bodies. (source: Kinki)
• Some Oni can summon a rain of fire. (source: Kaki)
• Some Oni can move freely through earth and stone. (source: Doki)
• Many Oni can use magic. (source: Kidomaru, etc.)
• Oni may carry magical items. (source: Issunboshi's Oni)
• The greatest of Oni may persist after being slain as ghosts called Reiki.
• Powerful sorcerers have been reputed to bind Oni to their service. One member of the Fujiwara clan is said to have bound four to use as assassins.
• It is said throwing roasted soybeans in the faces of Oni will cause them to flinch buying time to flee.
• In some regions, magic charms made from sardine heads and holly are used to ward them off.
• The Oni of Kyoto's Suzakumon was capable of using magic and corpse parts to create an artificial human. Had it been left alone for 100 days it would have gained a soul and become a true human too. This Oni was also skilled at various board games and music.

Notes: The colors given are associated with the 5 Elements. It also seems worthy of note that one-eyed Oni are more common in more ancient tales from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Perhaps the various one-eyed youkai of the Edo period diverged from these Oni in folklore over time. I included specific folkloric Oni attested with the given powers as sources when available.

The Kijo is the female counterpart of the Oni and is also called the Hannya. Features can include horns, claws, demonic or haglike visages, tusk-like fangs, large yellowish eyes, snake bodies, blue or white skin, and white hair. Generally the amount of demonic features increases with the power and corruption of the individual from nearly human to completely monstrous. Kijo in folklore are almost always formed from women consumed by dark emotions or black magic. They can take a human form and in the powerful cases a draconic/serpentine form. Some can wield fire and/or breathe it. They are skilled in sorcery, curses, illusions, and the crafting of poisons and potions. One of the most commonly described powers is sending forth an ikiryo, an astral body of a living being which haunts a victim like a ghost often causing illness. Newly corrupted Kijo may do this unconsciously or accidentally.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 02:08:59 AM
I've done some reading and decided to make a post on characteristics of pre-modern folklorically accurate Oni.

For those who do not know Oni are hairy, ogrish demonic beings that haunt the wild and spooky places of Japan. In some stories they resemble fairies dancing in the woods and giving boons or curses, but in most they are opponents for the hero to overcome. In Buddhist influenced lore they also torture sinners in Hell. Oni are often supernatural beings or spirits in their own right, but some are the result of a person's soul being tainted with a large amount of evil, hate, envy, etc. and transforming into one (aided by black magic in a few accounts). It's a bit like chaos corruption really.

Oni Characteristics and Powers (could probably makes some good tables from these)

• Oni may be red, blue, green, black or yellow in color (probably other colors as well).
• Oni may have one, two, three or more eyes. Even as many as 15 (or 10,000 in the special case of Dodomeki) has been attested.
• Oni may have anywhere from 3 to 6 digits and varied amounts of horns (maybe even no horn)
• Some Oni have no mouths at all
• Range in size from that of a child (Ko-Oni) to about 7 feet to giants able to swallow a man in one gulp. Size generally correlates to power.
• Oni love eating meat and drinking blood (often human). They also love women and alcohol along with the drunken revelry that comes with.
• Oni may wield various weapons such as tetsubo, mallets, mancatchers, swords, spears, axes, iron staves, sickles, etc.
• Oni have supernatural strength and constitution.
• Some Oni have the power of flight. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Some Oni can survive decapitation as a flying head. (source: Shuten-Doji and Otakemaru)
• Some Oni can pick up and reattach their severed limbs. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Many Oni can transform into both men and women. (source: Ibaraki-Doji, Otakemaru, etc.)
• Some Oni can summon thunder and Lightning.
• Some Oni can cause earthquakes.
• Some Oni can cause disease or bring forth plagues.
• Some Oni can summon strong gales. (source: Fuuki)
• Some Oni can cause floods. (source: Suiki)
• Some Oni can become invisible. (source: Ongyouki)
• Some Oni have hardened, near-invulnerable bodies. (source: Kinki)
• Some Oni can summon a rain of fire. (source: Kaki)
• Some Oni can move freely through earth and stone. (source: Doki)
• Many Oni can use magic. (source: Kidomaru, etc.)
• Oni may carry magical items. (source: Issunboshi's Oni)
• The greatest of Oni may persist after being slain as ghosts called Reiki.
• Powerful sorcerers have been reputed to bind Oni to their service. One member of the Fujiwara clan is said to have bound five to use as assassins.
• It is said throwing roasted soybeans in the faces of Oni will cause them to flinch buying time to flee.
• In some regions, magic charms made from sardine heads and holly are used to ward them off.
• The Oni of Kyoto's Suzakumon was capable of using magic and corpse parts to create an artificial human. Had it been left alone for 100 days it would have gained a soul and become a true human too. This Oni was also skilled at various board games and music.

Notes: The colors given are associated with the 5 Elements. It also seems worthy of note that one-eyed Oni are more common in more ancient tales from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Perhaps the various one-eyed youkai of the Edo period diverged from these Oni in folklore over time. I included specific folkloric Oni attested with the given powers as sources when available.

The Kijo is the female counterpart of the Oni and is also called the Hannya. Features can include horns, claws, demonic or haglike visages, tusk-like fangs, large yellowish eyes, snake bodies, blue or white skin, and white hair. Generally the amount of demonic features increases with the power and corruption of the individual from nearly human to completely monstrous. Kijo in folklore are almost always formed from women consumed by dark emotions or black magic. They can take a human form and in the powerful cases a draconic/serpentine form. Some can wield fire and/or breathe it. They are skilled in sorcery, curses, illusions, and the crafting of poisons and potions. One of the most commonly described powers is sending forth an ikiryo, an astral body of a living being which haunts a victim like a ghost often causing illness. Newly corrupted Kijo may do this unconsciously or accidentally.

At this point, I'm convinced that how you define an oni depends on the time and location.  I think I've come across more variations on oni than variations on elves/brownies/gnomes in European folklore.

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap.  Usually this was done to get into mischief and not be caught out as a human.  As with many folktale stories involving magic, you could dispel the transformation by speaking the person's real name.  Local traditions vary as to the competency of the person in wolf form; some stories have it where the werewolf was fully human mentally and others where they were still self aware but had their faculties dimmed to the level of a beast until they took human form.

An interesting aspect of the lore is that the wolf strap become part of the person that uses it.  If it is kept in a warm or cold place, the owner will always feel warm or cold.  Some variants hold that damage done to a wolf strap would be imparted to it's owner as well.

It's fascinating to me that so many cultures have some form of lycanthropy in their folklore.  The Hawaiians have sea turtles that that will transform into children and play with other children on the beach.  Eskimos have as a folklore tale that some seals are actually people and that they can take their seal skin off to engage with other people.  The Japanese of course have the takuni and fox shape shifters but they also had as part of their lore that shinobi could transform into wolves.  Some tribes in Africa see baboons as people with transforming abilities.  Australian aborigines have stories about people that shape shift into snakes.

Have you seen the film, "Brotherhood of the Wolf," which is based on a real French werewolf scare from revolutionary France?  Totally worth a watch.  I sometimes show it to my college students.

Quote from: Persimmon on February 01, 2024, 08:32:10 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap.  Usually this was done to get into mischief and not be caught out as a human.  As with many folktale stories involving magic, you could dispel the transformation by speaking the person's real name.  Local traditions vary as to the competency of the person in wolf form; some stories have it where the werewolf was fully human mentally and others where they were still self aware but had their faculties dimmed to the level of a beast until they took human form.

An interesting aspect of the lore is that the wolf strap become part of the person that uses it.  If it is kept in a warm or cold place, the owner will always feel warm or cold.  Some variants hold that damage done to a wolf strap would be imparted to it's owner as well.

It's fascinating to me that so many cultures have some form of lycanthropy in their folklore.  The Hawaiians have sea turtles that that will transform into children and play with other children on the beach.  Eskimos have as a folklore tale that some seals are actually people and that they can take their seal skin off to engage with other people.  The Japanese of course have the takuni and fox shape shifters but they also had as part of their lore that shinobi could transform into wolves.  Some tribes in Africa see baboons as people with transforming abilities.  Australian aborigines have stories about people that shape shift into snakes.

Have you seen the film, "Brotherhood of the Wolf," which is based on a real French werewolf scare from revolutionary France?  Totally worth a watch.  I sometimes show it to my college students.

Love that movie.  Sometimes the French can make movies worth watching.

Quote from: BadApple on February 01, 2024, 07:52:30 AM

Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 02:08:59 AM
I've done some reading and decided to make a post on characteristics of pre-modern folklorically accurate Oni.

For those who do not know Oni are hairy, ogrish demonic beings that haunt the wild and spooky places of Japan. In some stories they resemble fairies dancing in the woods and giving boons or curses, but in most they are opponents for the hero to overcome. In Buddhist influenced lore they also torture sinners in Hell. Oni are often supernatural beings or spirits in their own right, but some are the result of a person's soul being tainted with a large amount of evil, hate, envy, etc. and transforming into one (aided by black magic in a few accounts). It's a bit like chaos corruption really.

Oni Characteristics and Powers (could probably makes some good tables from these)

• Oni may be red, blue, green, black or yellow in color (probably other colors as well).
• Oni may have one, two, three or more eyes. Even as many as 15 (or 10,000 in the special case of Dodomeki) has been attested.
• Oni may have anywhere from 3 to 6 digits and varied amounts of horns (maybe even no horn)
• Some Oni have no mouths at all
• Range in size from that of a child (Ko-Oni) to about 7 feet to giants able to swallow a man in one gulp. Size generally correlates to power.
• Oni love eating meat and drinking blood (often human). They also love women and alcohol along with the drunken revelry that comes with.
• Oni may wield various weapons such as tetsubo, mallets, mancatchers, swords, spears, axes, iron staves, sickles, etc.
• Oni have supernatural strength and constitution.
• Some Oni have the power of flight. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Some Oni can survive decapitation as a flying head. (source: Shuten-Doji and Otakemaru)
• Some Oni can pick up and reattach their severed limbs. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Many Oni can transform into both men and women. (source: Ibaraki-Doji, Otakemaru, etc.)
• Some Oni can summon thunder and Lightning.
• Some Oni can cause earthquakes.
• Some Oni can cause disease or bring forth plagues.
• Some Oni can summon strong gales. (source: Fuuki)
• Some Oni can cause floods. (source: Suiki)
• Some Oni can become invisible. (source: Ongyouki)
• Some Oni have hardened, near-invulnerable bodies. (source: Kinki)
• Some Oni can summon a rain of fire. (source: Kaki)
• Some Oni can move freely through earth and stone. (source: Doki)
• Many Oni can use magic. (source: Kidomaru, etc.)
• Oni may carry magical items. (source: Issunboshi's Oni)
• The greatest of Oni may persist after being slain as ghosts called Reiki.
• Powerful sorcerers have been reputed to bind Oni to their service. One member of the Fujiwara clan is said to have bound five to use as assassins.
• It is said throwing roasted soybeans in the faces of Oni will cause them to flinch buying time to flee.
• In some regions, magic charms made from sardine heads and holly are used to ward them off.
• The Oni of Kyoto's Suzakumon was capable of using magic and corpse parts to create an artificial human. Had it been left alone for 100 days it would have gained a soul and become a true human too. This Oni was also skilled at various board games and music.

Notes: The colors given are associated with the 5 Elements. It also seems worthy of note that one-eyed Oni are more common in more ancient tales from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Perhaps the various one-eyed youkai of the Edo period diverged from these Oni in folklore over time. I included specific folkloric Oni attested with the given powers as sources when available.

The Kijo is the female counterpart of the Oni and is also called the Hannya. Features can include horns, claws, demonic or haglike visages, tusk-like fangs, large yellowish eyes, snake bodies, blue or white skin, and white hair. Generally the amount of demonic features increases with the power and corruption of the individual from nearly human to completely monstrous. Kijo in folklore are almost always formed from women consumed by dark emotions or black magic. They can take a human form and in the powerful cases a draconic/serpentine form. Some can wield fire and/or breathe it. They are skilled in sorcery, curses, illusions, and the crafting of poisons and potions. One of the most commonly described powers is sending forth an ikiryo, an astral body of a living being which haunts a victim like a ghost often causing illness. Newly corrupted Kijo may do this unconsciously or accidentally.

At this point, I'm convinced that how you define an oni depends on the time and location.  I think I've come across more variations on oni than variations on elves/brownies/gnomes in European folklore.

Another fun oni fact.  In World War II some Japanese propaganda tried to portray the Allied leaders as oni.  It's not clear that it had much effect on the Japanese themselves and the Allied leaders didn't know what oni were so it failed on that count.

Along these lines, have you seen the Korean film, "The Wailing?"  Given this thread, you should absolutely see that film if you have not.

Quote from: BadApple on February 01, 2024, 07:52:30 AM
At this point, I'm convinced that how you define an oni depends on the time and location.  I think I've come across more variations on oni than variations on elves/brownies/gnomes in European folklore.

The art, at least, has remained more or less consistent. A typical oni in a Heian period picture scroll looks very much like one from the Edo or modern period.

In Germany, werewolves are almost always evil sorcerers, who turn themselves into wolves with the help of black magic (generally an enchanted wolf pelt). The most famous of these satanic werewolves is of course Peter Stubbe (aka Peter Stump), who was executed in 1589. A rather odd werewolf case is the Wolf of Ansbach (1685), who was supposedly an evil mayor returned from the dead.
An interesting creature of German folklore is the Moosweiblein (moss woman). Although moss men are sometimes mentioned, the moss women are much more common. They are described as small (around 3 feet), old, and ugly. They are often covered with moss or hairy. For some reason, the Wild Hunt likes to hunt them down and kill them.
One of my favorite "monsters" of Germanic folklore are the Fänggen (singular: Fang or Fangga) of Bavaria and Austria. Sometimes they are described as dryad-like fairies, but more often are depicted as wild giants. Johann Nepomuk von Alpenburg described them as follows: "huge, hairy all over the body, bristled, the face distorted, the mouth drawn from one ear to the other, the black hair of the head hanging full of beard lichens ... and reaches rough and shaggy down the back; in anger it curls up wildly, like a Fury's curls. The eyes are dark and night-black like coals, but also glow at times and and sparkle with lightning - the voice is a man's voice, rough and coarse. Their clothes are skirts of wildcat furs, coats of tree bark, and shaggy coats of foxes and other animals." 

Quote from: WERDNA on January 24, 2024, 11:23:54 PM
...
There are similar creatures in almost every culture, it's quite fascinating. As for the appearance, Bell's kobold art in OD&D was gnome-like as per many folkloric depictions. Sutherland depicted them as scaly devil-dog things based on his interpretation of Gary's write up in the AD&D monster manual.

I've always found the depictions of Kobolds as wrinkly cannibal gnomes to be far more evocative and sinister in appearance than when they are depicted in a more animal like anthropomorphic fashion...

Quote from: Jaeger on February 01, 2024, 03:34:36 PM
I've always found the depictions of Kobolds as wrinkly cannibal gnomes to be far more evocative and sinister in appearance than when they are depicted in a more animal like anthropomorphic fashion...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Olaus_Magnus_-_On_the_Service_of_Ghosts.jpg/800px-Olaus_Magnus_-_On_the_Service_of_Ghosts.jpg?20080902223303)
Kobolds and a troll circa 1555.

(https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/img104107.jpg)
(https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/img104104.jpg)
(https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/img105117.jpg)

The Sirens of mythology show up quite often in Medieval bestiaries and encyclopedias often showing up in art along with onocentaurs (but not in this post) representing lust or vanity. I was surprised to find that their kind apparently has its own males. While they almost always take the forms of humans from the waist up, they vary below the waist even within the same illustrations. Sometimes they have an appearance like a mermaid, yet other times they have a bird body with the human torso beginning around the neck. However, I'd say my preferred version is like the last image, where the sirenes have what seems to be the winged body of a web-footed bird below the waist but terminating in a fish tail.

"And they appear with their young, which they carry in their arms, for the mothers suckle the young, which they have at their breasts. And the sailors, when they see the sirens, are very much afraid, and then they throw an empty bottle to her, so that while she plays with the bottle, the ship escapes. This was testified by those who professed to have seen them. As for the rest, as Andelmus writes, they have a part of their body like that of the eagle, and claws on their feet capable of sculling; but at the end of their body they have the scaly tails of fishes, with which they swim like rowers in sea. They have a certain musical and sweet melody in their voice, with which the sailors, delighted and attracted, are sent into sleep, and the sleepers are torn apart by the claws of the sirens. These beasts are said to dwell on islands and sometimes in the waves. But some of the sailors, using a wise plan, block their ears strongly and thus pass unscathed, otherwise they would be disturbed by the deadly song of the sirens." - Thomas of Cantimpre in the Liber de Natura Rerum, 13th Century AD

Judging by the art, sirens may also play instruments and beat you to death with simple weaponry if the charm/sleep fails.

Thomas also relates knowledge of a subspecies of Siren from this same Andelmus:
"Scilla is a sea monster like the siren. Andelmus the philosopher truly says that this monster dwells in that sea which is between Italy and Sicily. Indeed, she is an enemy to the sailor and to all men, and delights in their blood and flesh. Her head and breast are, of course, shaped like a maiden, like sirens; and she has a grin and gaping mouth and horrible teeth and a belly like a beast and a tail like a dolphin. They are of wonderful strength and are not easily conquered in the water; but on earth they are less strong, and almost peaceful. They also have somewhat musical voices, and they are also wonderfully pleased with music."

It seems Scylla also became an entire race of sea monster. It was not uncommon for mythical creatures once described as one-of-a-kind to become a species in later writings; in fact, I'm surprised it took all the way until the modern period for this to occur with the Minotaur. Regardless, Andelmus also implies that scyllae live among dog-fish (whether these are sharks or literal mer-hounds or both would be up to interpretation) and relates them to the mythical Scylla's multiple dog heads.

Also, if anyone knows of this Andelmus fellow's identity, let me know as I have no idea.

Edit: The text from "Andelmus the Philosopher" seems to be related to that of the Liber Monstrorum linked to one Aldhelm of Malmesbury.

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"Zyphius, as the great Basilius says in the book Exameron, is very formidable. It is a beast of the sea, exceeding the estimation of men, so that the providential nature of things may be believed to have played in this monster. For it is not likened to the shape of other fishes, nor to the monsters of the sea, nor to the beasts of the earth, nor to the birds of the sky, but has an ideal form, in which only beasts can be glorified, so as to render a worthy spectacle to those who see it, and from this praise by those who see it, to the Creator of all things. Its head is absolutely monstrous; the abyss of its mouth you will flee like the abyss of death; of the eyes you will be horrified; if you see its body, you will admit that you have seen nothing like it anywhere."

I particularly like the depiction with the maw filled with circular rows upon rows of teeth. It's almost Lovecraftian in that it is treated as indescribable. The Zyphius became an owl-faced whale monster of the northern seas in later Renaissance texts.

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The sea dragon is a dragon of the sea and is very much like a dragon of the land with its size, gaping maw and hard scales, but has great fins in place of wings. Isidore gives the beast two stinger-arms near to its tail which are deadly poisonous. Thomas of Cantimpre makes the bite that which is venomous, but perhaps it has both. He also notes that sea-dragons can move quite quickly across large distances underwater on account of their great strength. According to Pliny, the sea dragon can dig through sand with great speed and often uses this ability to escape attackers if it is pulled onto land. It is likely the sea-dragon lairs in underwater caves it has so dug. Notably, its bones can be burned into an ash which makes for a most wonderous tooth powder which heals toothaches and strengthens the gums. I have read that its own dead flesh sliced and placed over the wound as a poultice is effective aid against the venom. A less commonly attested remedy would be a potion made from the sea-dragon's brain.

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The cacus of the medieval bestiary is a corruption of the Cacus who fought Heracles in Greco-Roman myth. It is a fierce, bristly-furred mammalian beast said to inhabit Arcadia in Greece and also the regions of Italy near to the Tiber River. It is said to be able to breathe fire against its foes. The cacus is not burned by its own flames; perhaps it is burned by no natural flame. It is predatory and often hunts cattle, dragging them by the tails back to the caves where it lairs.

For some stuff relevant to a Middle Eastern or Sword & Caravan game:
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It is said that in the East in a land along the Red Sea there are red hens which when touched by a man magically cause him to suddenly combust and die (this is slightly similar to the 1e AD&D MM2's Pyrolisk).

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In this same region are strange beasts with two heads and eight legs and eyes like gorgons. In other manuscripts, these are little beasts with one head, two horns, eight eyes and eight legs. Either way, they are said to swiftly flee from the sound of humans but fight viciously if cornered. Be well armed if you intend to hunt them.

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In the Assyrian deserts there are Corsias or Cerastes. These are venomous ram-horned serpents which guard pepper plants and allegedly contribute to the desert's infertility. Perhaps this is due to their venomous nature? There are also wild asses of large size with horns like those of oxen.

In Africa and Arabia, of course, there are mythical subtypes of human: Cynocephali, various types of giants, fish-eating pygmies, blemmeyes, but also a fair-skinned female race which ranges from 7' to 14' in height with long hair, cow tails, tusk resembling boars', and camel feet.
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One thing I feel was an oversight of Sword & Caravan in light of the early medieval text Wonders of the East is that the giant ants should have had a small % chance to be hoarding gold they've dug up in their lairs. It would have given PC's an additional reason to hunt for them.

Have you heard about Yokai.com yet?

I have! I use it semi-frequently.

Figured I'd drop a bunch of medieval Japanese magic rituals and practitioners from my notes I've learned about via the Internet and a number of books over the years:

Magic practitioners in Japan:
In the case of folk magic it could be almost anyone.

Nobles may secretly learn rituals if they can find teachers or scrolls. In many of the legends involving magicians summoning Oni or yokai to wreak havoc, these mages are mostly nobles sometimes even samurai.

Shinto Kannushi (priests) and Miko (priestesses) perform magics. Particularly Invocation and pacification of kami, purification, combatting and casting curses, necromancy, rain-making, Shamanic spirit possession, paper charms/Talismans, and various forms of divination like Bokusen, ornithomancy, and hydromancy. Spirit possession is most common among the priestesses. A Japanese book I read from the 1930's implied the presence of Shintoist sexual magic at one time including the conception of a "Divine Child" (Jp: Mikogami; like a moonchild?). If such survived into the middle ages it would be in isolated rural villages. Traveling shamanesses not or loosely affiliated with shrines also existed. [Unfinished Section]

Buddhist priests and sometimes nuns who utilize rituals of esoteric mikkyo Buddhism particularly from Shingon and Tendai sects. Including mudra, mantra, paper charms/talismans, Goma/Homa Fire ritual, āveśa possession, and various tantra. Some of these arts are said to have passed to the Ninja. The nuns sometimes adopted spirit possession from the Shinto tradition. Some Buddhist clergy practice modified Liu Ren divination and astrology (Medieval Japanese Buddhist astrological texts are very similar to Persian style western astrology with Chinese elements; in fact, the planetary spirit illustrations in one of the surviving manuscripts are clearly derived from Persian works).

Shugenja and Yamabushi who use the arts of both Shinto and Buddhist practice following the example of En no Ozuna. Among the Buddhist practices they are best known for variants of Goma fire rituals. These are also well known for using genjutsu (illusion and prestidigitation). Some ninja were said to have learned a bit of the magic of shugendo.

Onmyouji who serve the elite. These are magicians who focus mostly on the Taoist tradition with Shinto and perhaps some Buddhist elements. They are associated with shikiban (Liu Ren) divination, I Ching divination, astrology, purification, fusui (Feng shui), combatting curses (or casting them), mantras, paper charms/talismans, using familiar shikigami spirits, invoking and pacifying deities and spirits, rain making, etc. They may possess knowledge of Chinese external alchemy (not Internal) though it lost popularity after the Nara period.

Street performers like the Heian and Kamakura period Kugutsushi or later Muromachi period Shomoji and street magicians (genjutsushi) also had ties to the magical arts. Shomoji were associated with a variety of religious and onmyo rituals in addition to the performing arts. The Muromachi and Sengoku periods were a golden age of famous street illusionists like Kashin Koji (reputed to be an actual wizard) and Kato Danzo (who was also a ninja). Toward the end of the Sengoku era when the government began to crack down on Christianity, street magic performances, despite a multi-century history, were banned as "black arts of the Christian Fathers" for a while amusingly enough.

Nademono Purification: A onmyo ritual where a paper doll roughly in the shape of a human is crafted by the practitioner. The target to be purified of sin and ritual pollution must rub it on their bodies and breathe upon it to transfer the corruption. The practitioner then take it back and prays to the gods over it before floating it down a running waterway. Some practitioners refold them into little boats before doing this.

Bokusen Divination: Divination through heating bones in a fire and interpreting the cracks in relation to positive/negative queries. Often a tortoise shell or deer scapula.

Ushi no Koku Mairi: Vestament: White Clothing, white face paint (Red in older times), a Mirror worn on chest, Ichiba Geta, a wooden comb or bamboo and pine root brand lit at both ends in the mouth, wearing upon the head an inverted iron gotoku tripod topped with three lit candles. The practitioner must head to a Shinto shrine and nail a staw effigy representing the target to a sacred tree at the Hour of the Ox. Silence must be maintained and other people avoided lest the curse misfire onto them or otherwise fail. The ritual must be performed successfully for seven nights. On the seventh a spirit will be summoned in the form of a black ox. If the practitioner mounts the bull without fear, the spirit will fulfill the curse. The curse causes a fatal illness beginning in the part of the body where the doll was nailed. Performing this ritual is an act of chaos with some risk of turning into an Oni (mutation). It also possible to request this of the spirit directly.

Inugami Ritual: An illegal chaotic ritual often associated with continental Gu magic. In this ritual one buries a dog up to it's neck with food just out of reach. As it is at its hungriest and stretching its neck toward the food, decapitate it. Take the severed head into a vessel and secretly enshrine it within the home. The dog-spirit (inugami) will become a powerful familiar capable of death curses, biting foes to death, possess living things and objects, giving oracles, and stealing. The form of the Inugami is of a dog with a split tail or a flying vicious dog head. The Inugami will serve the practitioner and his house loyally unless they abuse it in which case they will be bitten to death. There was a record of a case where a Shinto Miko was generating Inugami and selling them in vessels at market. Furthermore, there is a version of this ritual to create a Nekogami with a calico cat instead in Kii Province said to have been passed down by tantric priests from Honganji in the 14th or 15th century.

Taizan Fukun no Sai: A powerful and secret Onmyo ritual mainly invoking the Taoist god of Mt. Tai. An onmyo altar is erected and the divinities are summoned. They are requested to deal with matters regarding lifespans and may extend lifespans, prevent death from fatal wounds or illness, or even resurrect the recently deceased. An argument for the value of the deceased must be presented and rich sacrifices offered: Gold, silver, horses or even human life. For minor intervention the gods may be satisfied with a false sacrifice of substituted paper dolls or a trivial amount of a person's life; however, in major cases they will require more possibly resulting in what is effectively sacrificing one or more lives for another.

Izuna Ritual: Shinto folk magic used to grant a fox familiar, typically a kudagitsune kept in a bamboo tube or kimono sleeve. Often associated with Yamabushi. The process is as follows: Find and tame a pregnant vixen, take care of her until she gives birth, she will ask you to name a kit, and that kit shall be your loyal familiar. There are dangers that the familiar may cause mischief on your behalf without being asked or may multiply with others of it's kind increasing the number of familiars to a difficult to handle degree (as the children will also serve the practitioner and his house). Common uses of the familiar are as spies, oracles, performing curses, possession, cause disease, or steal from others. For this reason, suspected practitioners are often persecuted by their communities akin to witches in the Far West. There are variants of this practice which utilize tanuki or snakes (toubyo) but are otherwise identical.

Houkigami Ritual: i.e. A Broom Ritual for Safe Childbirth. This is a Shinto folk ritual which entails gently sweeping a broom over the belly of a pregnant woman (as if to sweep the child out safely) while invoking the spirit of brooms and childbirth, Houkigami.

Tachikawa Skull Ritual:
"If anyone would practice this secret Dharma (Ritual) and attain great Siddhi (magical powers), he must construct an object of worship (honzon). I do not refer to the auspicious face of a woman here; this misogi (purification Rite) is a skull. There are, in fact, ten different types of skull that may be used:
1 the skull of a wise man
2 the skull of an ascetic
3 the skull of a king
4 the skull a shogun
5 the skull of a great minister
6 the skull of an elder
7 the skull of a father
8 the skull of a mother
9 a "Thousand Cranium" skull
10 a "Dharamdhatu" (entire material universal) skull.

The first eight are clear enough. The "Thousand Cranium" skull is made by grinding the tops of a thousand men's skulls into flour and molding the bone-paste into a honzon. For the "Dharmadhātu" skull, one must go to a cemetery on the chōyō (an onmyodo festival held on the 9th day of the 9th month. Since the number 9 is the perfect maximum yang/yō in Chinese divination it is seen as a particularly powerful and auspicious day. See: kuji-in), collects a large number of skulls, chants dākini (Dakini represent an especially crucial component of the Skull Ritual) incantations/prayers, and prays over the skulls. Finally, he takes the one, that when placed at the bottom of pile of skulls repeatedly rises to the top of the pile; or else he goes out on a frosty morning and selects the one that on which no frost has formed. Or, best of all, he selects a skull that is completely free of suture lines.

Whatever type he chooses can be made into a honzon (object of worship). For any of the ten types of skull there are three methods of construction possible. These are "the whole head", "the small head", and "the moon-shaped head". For "the whole head", the officiant uses the original skull. To this he adds a chin, puts in a tongue and teeth, and covers the bone with a hard lacquer so that it looks just like the unblemished flesh of a living person. When the skull has been completely formed, he places it in a box. Then he must have sexual intercourse with the skull and with a beautiful and willing woman, and must repeatedly wipe the liquid product (the mixture of male and female seminal and vaginal secretions) of this act on the skull until it reaches 120 layers. Each night at midnight he must burn "Spirit returning" incense (frankincense/hangon-kō), pass the smoke through the eye holes of the skull, and chant a "spirit returning" mantra fully and perfectly one thousand times.

After carrying out the procedure above for a number of days, the officiant places the appropriate charms and secret talismans (sōō motsu) into the skull. Once this procedure has been meticulously completed, he covers the skull with three layers of gold and silver leaf. Over these layers, the mandala must be inscribed, and then more gold and silver leafe applied, then another mandala applied over that, just as before. Thus the layers of gold and silver foil and sacred writings are built up – the outer layers are five and six, then in the center thirteen layers, all over the base of 120 layers of the red and white elixir (male and female sexual secretions). (Presumably this will equal the thickness of muscle and flesh of a real person) The ink of the mandlas should also be the twin fluids of intercourse.

Cinnabar (mercury sulfide) is rubbed into the tongue and lips, the teeth are set in silver leaf, and the eyes are painted in comely fashion, or, precious gems (jade, mother of pearl, or cornelian) can be used for the eyes. Them face is painted white and rouge patted in to create the appearance of a beautiful woman or boy. The image must look prosperous and have a face that smiles without the slightest hint of reproach.

During the entire process the sacred skull is to be kept on an altar in a place where no one ever goes, and various delicacies, beautiful flowers, and fine wines are to be offered to it. No one must go there (to the skull altar) but the craftsman, the adept, and the woman. There (at the skull altar) they must happily and willingly and ceaselessly disport themselves as if celebrating the first three days of the New Year. Each act and word must be wholly free of any sign of care.

Once the honzon is finished, it is installed on the altar. Offerings of rare things are made daily; spirit-returning incense is burned; and the various observations are carried out at the hours of the Rat, the Ox, and the Tiger (midnight to dawn). With the arrival of the Hour of the Hare (dawn), the honzon is placed in a bag made of seven layers of brocade. Once this bag has been closed, it is not easy to reopen. Every night the bag is held close to the adept's body to keep it (the skull) warm; during the day it is placed on the altar, where delicacies (fowl, fish, meats, blood, rice, and so on) must be gathered and offered for its nourishment.

For seven years, day and night, the adept must and will devote the whole of his being and mind to this practice. When the eight year comes, the ascetic will obtain Siddhi (magical powers). For those who reach the highest grade of practice, the honzon will return to life and speak aloud (presumably predicting the future and bestowing upon the practitioner great Wisdom and knowledge). Since it will inform him of all events of the universe, he should listen carefully to it and thus become as someone with divine powers. For practitioners of the middle rank, the honzon will tell them the meaning of their dreams. It will not speak to those of the lower ranks, but all their desires will come to be realized in accordance with their wishes.

The second method, the "Small Head" method, exists because of the difficulty of carrying around a whole head. The top of one whole skull can be divided into eight pieces and each piece used as a face lacquered into a plate made of wood of a sacred tree. Again, one sketches in the mandala in thin layers, daubs the honzon with the twin waters of intercourse, inserts the appropriate charms and talismans, and decorates the face just as before. The "Small head" is then hung around the neck but under the garments, and nourished just as before.

In the case of the third. "Moon-Shaped" method, a whole cranium is cut off at the eyebrows, the brain pan is carefully dried and cleaned, and the moon-shaped inner cavity coated with the lacquer of the twin waters of intercourse. Various charms and talismans are placed in it, again the mandala is laid out in thin color, all as before. On the surface of the "Moon-skull" the practitioner must paint a honzon while continuously reciting mantras. Cinnabar in packed inside. Then the practitioner is to wrap the skull in a nine-layered Monk's habit made from silk stained with menstrual blood of a beautiful young virgin woman. He then places it in a nine-layered casket wrapped in seven layers of brocaded silk, hangs it from his neck under his garments (to keep it dry and warm), and devoutly recites mantras to it wherever he goes.

There are recommended variations on this procedure, from taking the skull to its final installation and resurrection, since several oral (kuden) teachings have been handed down by the old and wise. I have noted and summarized only about one-hundredth of the whole Ritual. But in general this is how the practitioner carries out this Ritual."

The skull may serve the practitioner through the 7 spirits bound to the remains. A higher level practitioner may receive knowledge in dreams while the highest may create a skull able to speak oracles. These 7 spirits will take on the forms of dakini, foxes/jackals, or Buddhas as the situation requires. This ritual was sometimes associated with elements of the Izuna sect of Shinano province as was Izuna Ritual and Dakiniten Ritual (see below). This practice and the Tachikawa school of Shingon Buddhism itself were considered heretical.

Esoteric Buddhist Spells:
Esoteric Buddhist spells are typically Goma Fire Rituals or Tantra. Holy oils contain boiled milk and honey.

There are 5 stages in Goma: Invocation to Katen (Agni), Protective Invocation to Gozanze-Myo (Trailokyavijaya), Main Deity Invocation, Invocation to the 73 major deities, Invocation to Devas of the outer Mandala.

Pacifying Rites
Often invoke Fudo myoo (Acala). Used to drive away illness spirits, ease childbirth, safe sea travel, protect from fire or natural disasters, etc. Vestments are white. Kanboku liquorice flowers are burned. Best time is the start of night. Altar should face north with a round hearth.

Subduing rites (keiaihoo, Aizenhoo; S: vasikarana)
A love enchantment very popular in the Heian period: The hearth is round like an eight-petalled lotus flower, facing west. The best time of day for the ceremony is midnight. Vestments of the priests of red color. The main object of worship is Aizen Myoo (Ragaraja). The ceremony often lasted an entire night (ichiya goma). 108 flowers, mostly red lotuses, are burned in the 3rd stage. If a triangular hearth is used here, as in banishing rites, a previously unruly partner becomes submissive to the victim and does what the other wants

Banishing rites (choobukuhoo, chuubukuhoo, goobukuhoo) (S: aabhicaarika)
A type of black magic for cursing and subduing enemies: The hearth is triangular, facing south. The triangle here is the symbol of fire, which is used to destroy enemies. The best time of day for the ceremony is midday or night. Vestments of the priests of green and black color. Old wood (koboku) is burned. Red flowers with a pungent scent. The healing being invoked is usually Daigensui Myoo (Atavaka) or the five great wisdom kings (godai myoo). These ceremonies are among the oldest; Through them, particularly powerful deities are summoned and so in times of crisis the ruler often ordered them to protect the country or to overpower enemies of the state (seiteki, onteki). In a sense they were also political instruments and their history is particularly interesting (see Takemitsu). There are four other subgroups of these rites.

Life-prolonging rites (enmeihoo, Fugen enmeihoo)
A sub-form of the multiplying rites that was particularly popular in Japan. Prayers to extend one's lifespan. The stove is rectangular, the handle of the cover is in the shape of a wishing jewel with a wreath of flames. The salvation being invoked is Fugen Enmei Bosatsu (Vajramongha Samayasattva) with two or twenty arms. There is also a ritual for a six month life extension invoking Fudo myoo.

Japanese sources also state that in India and Tibet there are said to be rites for killing enemies (jusatsuhoo; see Pundit's Magic of Kunlun), for breaking ties with unwanted friends (rikanhoo), etc.

Dakiniten Ritual: A secret Buddhist ritual which invokes Dakiniten and is often portrayed as summoning her in the form of a fox/fox-woman. Generally grants temporal power, may be lost as quickly as was gained.

Shugenja usually invoke Fudo-Myou or Zao Gongen in pacifying rites vs misfortune

The mountain range of the Shugenja from Kumano to Yoshino is a Mandala for magical purposes.

This is a lot of the research I've been gathering for the magic system for my current project.  My goal is to make a shinobi game set in the Sengoku period and dial the magic and mysticism up to making it a fantasy RPG somewhere between low fantasy and high fantasy.  Essentially, I want it to be a setting that does for feudal Japan what Lion & Dragon does for The War of the Roses.

Interesting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

Officially John Dee was the Court Astronomer and an advisor.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 13, 2024, 06:17:15 AMOfficially John Dee was the Court Astronomer and an advisor.

This is where you get into what are now called the Natural Sciences (astonomy, chemistry, biology, physics, etc.), but before the organized procedures of the scientific method were often called the Natural Magics.

The dividing line for The Medieval and Renaissance Catholic Church was that studying and applying the nature and functions of God's Creation was morally licit; God had given dominion over the Earth to Man and placed these properties within His Creation for Man's benefit, so seeking them out was what God intended for us.

Other forms of magic involved communing and bargaining with spirits of unknown origin (sure, it can say it's an angel or your dead granny, and maybe sometimes it even could be, but demons lie and seek every opportunity to lead men into sin and you're literally knocking on their door to ask for advice) are deemed sinful because you aren't putting your faith in God (nor that your prayers to Him will be heard and answered in what God deems is best for you).

From a modern perspective, none of the natural magics are actually magic, they're applied proto-science. But from the perspective of the time Clarke's Law holds... misunderstood science/technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Astronomy in particular is one of those areas that fell under Natural Magic. Sure, the movement of the planets and stars has little to do determining outcomes on Earth (certainly not wars, famines and the like), but it was studying the natural world for clues (and it's not like the Bible didn't record God using celestial events to mark important actions by Him on Earth) and so wasn't sinful, just not terribly useful for what they were hoping to find (it was, however, extremely useful for navigation, timekeeping, and eventually our understanding of the cosmos).

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMWhat is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

The late Roman and early Medieval Church theoretically didn't believe in the existence of magic. You were expected to do penance for the pagan superstition of believing in or practicing it. That said most people at that time did believe in it as many secular law codes show.

In the High and Late Middle ages it was posited that magic was mostly fake but sometimes an illusion of the senses caused by demons.

At first the Catholic Church was against witch hunts but the zeitgeist of the times ultimately won out.

On the matter of transformation into newts or other animals: the official line became that it was demons modifying the perception of both the "transformed" and observers, but some respectable scholars did suggest that if allowed by God demons may actually reorganize one's atoms into the new form. Gervase of Tillsbury I believe may have held this view.

Quote from: WERDNA on December 19, 2023, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AMSome of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

As it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 05:25:03 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

That's completely wrong. For most of the middle ages there was no distinction between science and magic, and for that matter some of the humanities and medicine too. And there was no notion whatsoever that high magic was "of the devil". Folk magic was a bit different but for most of the middle ages the main view of both Church and Crown to folk magic was that most of it was just empty powerless superstition.

Only certain very specific forms of magical activities were either illegal or banned by the church or both. Poisoning and enchantment were illegal. Making pacts with demons (summoned by evocation) was banned by the church (note: binding demons was not). Doing divinations about the King without the King's express permission was illegal, as it was seen as somewhere between espionage and treason. The church forbade certain practices of Alchemy which required dead bodies, and these were typically outlawed by the crown too.  Magic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church. And trying to make gold using alchemy required a costly permit.

There were absolutely court magicians in various Christian nations. Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer (and also one of the first spies in Her Majesty's Secret Service, with the code number "007"); he selected the date for her coronation using astrology, everyone knew it, and thought it was perfectly fine. He was later courted by various monarchs of Europe who wanted him to be THEIR court magician. Likewise Edward Kelley.

Of course, a MUCH bigger patron of magic than the royal crowns was the CHURCH. Countless monasteries engaged in the studies of "natural philosophy", including alchemy and all kinds of conjuring. There were popes who had practiced magic. And great saints; including Thomas Aquinas, who studied under the great and renowned philosopher-friar Albertus Magnus, who as not only a Dominican monk but also the CHAIR OF THEOLOGY at the University of Paris in the 1240s.

So you're just unbelievably, ridiculously, moronically wrong.

I'll add that Michael Scotus served in a similar capacity as Dee for Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II in earlier times.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 05:25:03 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

That's completely wrong. For most of the middle ages there was no distinction between science and magic, and for that matter some of the humanities and medicine too. And there was no notion whatsoever that high magic was "of the devil". Folk magic was a bit different but for most of the middle ages the main view of both Church and Crown to folk magic was that most of it was just empty powerless superstition.

Only certain very specific forms of magical activities were either illegal or banned by the church or both. Poisoning and enchantment were illegal. Making pacts with demons (summoned by evocation) was banned by the church (note: binding demons was not). Doing divinations about the King without the King's express permission was illegal, as it was seen as somewhere between espionage and treason. The church forbade certain practices of Alchemy which required dead bodies, and these were typically outlawed by the crown too.  Magic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church. And trying to make gold using alchemy required a costly permit.

There were absolutely court magicians in various Christian nations. Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer (and also one of the first spies in Her Majesty's Secret Service, with the code number "007"); he selected the date for her coronation using astrology, everyone knew it, and thought it was perfectly fine. He was later courted by various monarchs of Europe who wanted him to be THEIR court magician. Likewise Edward Kelley.

Of course, a MUCH bigger patron of magic than the royal crowns was the CHURCH. Countless monasteries engaged in the studies of "natural philosophy", including alchemy and all kinds of conjuring. There were popes who had practiced magic. And great saints; including Thomas Aquinas, who studied under the great and renowned philosopher-friar Albertus Magnus, who as not only a Dominican monk but also the CHAIR OF THEOLOGY at the University of Paris in the 1240s.

So you're just unbelievably, ridiculously, moronically wrong.

I fully acknowledge that my statement was way overly simplified.  The middle ages covers a lot of time, a lot of perspectives, and a lot of cultures.  Doctrinal interpretation was spotty at best and so was what magic was understood to be.

If you mean that magic is an umbrella term for anything that doesn't have an immediate corporal explanation, then you are correct.  However, there is a lot of distinction made between "divine mysteries" and "magic" from a Roman Catholic perspective.  The exploration of the first was encouraged while the second was heresy.  Natural philosophies were largely seen to fall into the divine mysteries camp.

I don't have access to my library right now so I can't give you references and I'm unable to give a counterpoint in the developed and intelligent way I would like to.  What I can say is that the Roman Catholic church has reclassified many fields of study but the principle idea that messing with the supernatural for personal gain is magic and heretical just like it was a thousand years ago.

Again, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

Double post, sorry.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PMMagic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church.

Of all the laws mentioned, this is the only one with which I wasn't familiar. Do you have a source so I can read the law myself? The subject is of interest to me.

Quote from: BadApple on May 16, 2024, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

The answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

When it comes to "high magic", the situation is somewhat different. The fall of Rome meant that learning largely collapsed in most of Europe, and so there were relatively few magicians during the dark ages and early middle ages on the Christian side of things (of course, pagan magicians abounded in pagan cultures). Alongside the rise of the monasteries, there was a slow process of rediscovery of knowledge, and magic included among these. In the Early middle ages the vast majority of non-folk magicians were monks or priests. This led to a large number of the aristocracy having advisors that were skilled in at least some magical practices. It's said that in the court of Louis the Pious, every great nobleman had a personal astrologer, many of whom were said to be Irish monks, and of course were also at the same time employed as general learned men and chroniclers. This type of magic, having a kind of legitimacy from the ancient world, was seen completely different from the "pagan" folk practices of the peasantry. What was forbidden by law was "maleificium", curses and other kinds of evil magic.

And of course, there were more magicians in the Byzantine empire and in Islamic Spain. The Pope Sylvester II first learned magic while in Catalonia.

Around the 13th century, the University began to appear as a separate institution to that of the Monasteries, a place of secular learning. Once again, a great many scholars engaged in the study and practice of magic. And while it is true that not every court had some kind of official magician, a great many had a learned man who was prized for having magic as one of his talents. That's why John Dee was courted throughout Europe; he was one of the most famous men in the Christian world and everyone wanted him.

Quote from: WERDNA on May 16, 2024, 04:23:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PMMagic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church.

Of all the laws mentioned, this is the only one with which I wasn't familiar. Do you have a source so I can read the law myself? The subject is of interest to me.

Hmm, I'm trying to find it but my searching ability is not going so well (google's 2024 algorithms focus so much on the banal its frustrating). It is within the realm of possibility that I could be remembering this wrong, and that it was not something that the Vatican itself made a statement about but was only condemned at certain times by local secular or religious authorities. I'm not sure now.

Quote from: BadApple on May 16, 2024, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

I guess I'm luck because I live close to Arkansas and grew up going camping in a state park on a lake next to the reactor.

I would argue that it depends on what skill level of practitioners you mean. Like Pundit pointed out a significant number of villages had 'wise men/women' that used folk magic. So if you include them as part of the lore, there is a significantly high number of them

I remember hearing a lecture on the middle ages that included how they mixed folk "magic" with Chrisitan miracles. I can't remember the exact quote bit it was something like "If your horse or cow has been shot by ilf bow and is sick, then (I can't remember the folk magic fix) or go to the pries or deacon for (I can't remember what the prayers or action were supposed to be).

Of course this is different than the high magic for an alchemist / natural philosopher. That is a higher level and requires 'learning' that exceeds that of a local hedge-mage so there is inherently going to be fewer of them.

Now to get back on the supernatural lore, one thing that has always interested me is the idea that even users of dark arts knew that curses were dangerous even to the caster and what one cursed the curse returned on them (so the caster tried to make sure the one wanted the curse was the one that actually did the cursing). Not sure how that would come into play mechanically in a RPG, but ...

Quote from: Lurker on May 16, 2024, 11:04:03 PMI remember hearing a lecture on the middle ages that included how they mixed folk "magic" with Chrisitan miracles. I can't remember the exact quote bit it was something like "If your horse or cow has been shot by ilf bow and is sick, then (I can't remember the folk magic fix) or go to the pries or deacon for (I can't remember what the prayers or action were supposed to be).

Yes indeed. That charm would be an example of Anglo-Saxon healing galdr. Honestly I think the spell you're thinking of or a similar one has been statted out for OSR games in Crawford's Wolves of God.

Yes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 23, 2024, 08:58:04 AMhttps://abookofcreatures.com/ cross-references a lot of weird creatures with citations and includes fact checking to fix fakelore. A lot of these creatures are weird, particularly when it comes to things like harvesting their body parts for ingredients.

Fearsome critters are my favorite because they're Americana. D&D owes so much to the Old West, so I think there need to be more overt western influences and fearsome critters. Less Lord of the Rings, more Wizard of Oz. Cowboys fighting orcs and snallygasters. But I suppose that's for a different thread

Thanks for the link!

Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 18, 2024, 09:25:20 AMHave you heard about Yokai.com yet?

Thanks for the link!

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

I grew up around this type of ideology.  I have met and spent time talking with Mike Warnke, Kennith Copland, and Carmen Licciardello.  Not to mention the fact that I've studied some Catholic esoteric theory.  What became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.  (You better believe there are still a lot of people steeped in it.)  Many of the Manuals of Inquisition are pretty easy to understand for me as they look a lot (in spirit if not procedure) like the stuff the Evangelicals put out on the subject.

From a conservative Christian perspective, both now and then, all supernatural happenings are either divine or satanic.  A lot of effort goes into figuring out which one is which.  Miracles are divine supernatural events and magic is the result of occult satanic ritual.     

What nearly anyone practicing magic in the middle ages in Europe would need to do is either a) keep it hidden or b) convince onlookers that it was divine in nature and therefore not occult.

Pundit, you said that a lot of it comes down to how you define magic.  I agree. 

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

The above is basically the reason why terms like "Natural Philosophy" (and "Natural Magic") arose in the first place. One thing about the Catholic Church; it likes to define things. It creates terms specifically to distinguish things from what might otherwise be lumped together if the differences are spiritually significant (and sometimes even if they aren't).

"That guy over there is a wizard, I'm a natural philosopher."

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AMWhat became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.

By this are you referring to the Witch trials? I'd associate the creation of the inquisition more with the increase of influence held by the Cathars.

It's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the Church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?

Quote from: WERDNA on May 17, 2024, 05:58:38 PMIt's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?

   Because a lot of the condemnations of witch hunting and inquisitors come out of the creation of the Black Legend (anti-Catholic, anti-Spanish) and the Enlightenment (anti-Christian, pro-Roman).

Greetings!

Yes, very interesting! I love reading my copies of The Malleus Malificarum.

The authors of the famous manual on Witch Hunting, Kramer and Spengler, were definitely interesting men!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There's enough about the role Christianity played in the social and political development of Europe during the middle ages to earn multiple doctorates.  We are talking about multiple centuries, hundreds of languages, and thousands of prominent personalities and decision makers that all played a part.

I made a very broad general statement based on my knowledge.  I still hold that it's true in the general sense but I see how things could be perceived differently.  People would have rationalized away the inconsistencies rather than taking a hard line by allowing a lot of relabeling and moving on.

I will say that there were five magic areas that were directly condemned by doctrine backed up by Bible passages; summoning, conjuring, divination, speaking with the dead, and curses.  Messing with these would have been a high risk activity anywhere where the more orthodox elements of the church held sway.

In case anyone is interested, I added a small section on street performers and a folk magic ritual (Houkigami Ritual) to my big post on Japanese magic (#35, pg. 3).

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

I grew up around this type of ideology.  I have met and spent time talking with Mike Warnke, Kennith Copland, and Carmen Licciardello.  Not to mention the fact that I've studied some Catholic esoteric theory.  What became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.  (You better believe there are still a lot of people steeped in it.)  Many of the Manuals of Inquisition are pretty easy to understand for me as they look a lot (in spirit if not procedure) like the stuff the Evangelicals put out on the subject.

From a conservative Christian perspective, both now and then, all supernatural happenings are either divine or satanic.  A lot of effort goes into figuring out which one is which.  Miracles are divine supernatural events and magic is the result of occult satanic ritual.   

What nearly anyone practicing magic in the middle ages in Europe would need to do is either a) keep it hidden or b) convince onlookers that it was divine in nature and therefore not occult.

Pundit, you said that a lot of it comes down to how you define magic.  I agree.

Well, I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here. Holy Men or Saints or preachers would heal and do other things by prayer and faith alone, and they certainly didn't identify themselves as magicians or hermetics or occult philosophers.
But both folk-tradition wise men/women and hermetic magicians, while identifying as Christians, and using christian purification and prayer in their ritual magic, still DID ritual magic. They weren't thinking of what they were doing as just prayer or just "gifts of the holy spirit" or something like that, they understood that what they were doing was a ritual, and that it was part of an ancient tradition.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 17, 2024, 01:19:30 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

The above is basically the reason why terms like "Natural Philosophy" (and "Natural Magic") arose in the first place. One thing about the Catholic Church; it likes to define things. It creates terms specifically to distinguish things from what might otherwise be lumped together if the differences are spiritually significant (and sometimes even if they aren't).

"That guy over there is a wizard, I'm a natural philosopher."

The term "natural philosophy" was not invented by the Catholic Church. It was in use at least from the time of the ancient greeks.

In fact, the prohibitions that the Church had on certain types of magic ("maleficium", necromancy, etc) were basically THE SAME as the ones that the PAGAN Roman Empire had in most of its history.

The mentality that "all magic is from satan" is something that only really arose around the peak of the witch craze, and coincided not only with the reactionary mentality which produced that but was also coinciding with the reformist movement (which is not to say that only protestants were involved, because there was a reformist movement that led to Protestantism but it was part of a longer reformist movement that had been trying to reform the church for at least a century before Luther and would continue to do so after the protestant reformation). It was part of that combination of iconoclasm, excessive puritanism, and taking the "sola scriptura" concept to a radical extreme.

It's something that has happened in this past century in the Muslim world, where 100 years ago a huge percentage of Muslims were of the mystical Sufi school, and all kinds of philosophical and mystical studies abounded in much of the Muslim world, and today the "purity of Islam" nonsense (and it is nonsense because there never ever was that mythical past they claim they're trying to recover where no one looked to anything at all outside the Koran/Hadith) has all but wiped out Sufism in much of the Muslim world, and instead nearly 50% of muslims are extremist Wahabi/Deobandists.

Quote from: BadApple on May 18, 2024, 12:50:32 AMThere's enough about the role Christianity played in the social and political development of Europe during the middle ages to earn multiple doctorates.  We are talking about multiple centuries, hundreds of languages, and thousands of prominent personalities and decision makers that all played a part.

I made a very broad general statement based on my knowledge.  I still hold that it's true in the general sense but I see how things could be perceived differently.  People would have rationalized away the inconsistencies rather than taking a hard line by allowing a lot of relabeling and moving on.

I will say that there were five magic areas that were directly condemned by doctrine backed up by Bible passages; summoning, conjuring, divination, speaking with the dead, and curses.  Messing with these would have been a high risk activity anywhere where the more orthodox elements of the church held sway.

Agreed. Note what they all have in common though... all call upon something supernatural through means of ritual; either for information, bargaining, or compelling service (divination isn't the same as astrology... the latter is passively observing the heavens in search of patterns, the former is performing rituals to seek information from spirits).

The Church's position against those practices was to protect people from acts that would expose them to demonic temptation, oppression or possession.

The Epistles even laid out a process for testing visions or apparitions that weren't called for and said to not trust spirits claiming to be angels or saints without performing those tests (chief among them is whether or not it's message in any way contradicted the gospel message and to consult with others before putting faith in such a thing) because demons are angels and can appear as saints or the dead and are free to lie and deceive in the process.

Mucking about with chemicals derived from minerals, plants and animals, even if those results can be explosive, won't damn your soul (alchemy always sat right on the border of acceptable precisely because one of the ends that could be pursued was mucking about with one's soul and summoning spirits as part of the procedures).

Quote from: WERDNA on May 17, 2024, 05:58:38 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AMWhat became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.

By this are you referring to the Witch trials? I'd associate the creation of the inquisition more with the increase of influence held by the Cathars.

It's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the Church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?

You're largely correct. The Inquisition itself had very little to do with the Witch Craze. The people involved in that were mostly secular authorities of both Catholic and Protestant areas who were egged on by radical preachers.
It wasn't in any way the Inquisition's job to hunt down witches or anything like that, they were tasked with uncovering heretics and apostates who taught ideas that were in opposition to the doctrines of faith.

And yes, the Romans did all those things, and as I just said in my previous post, pretty much all the things they Romans routinely outlawed were the same things that the Catholic Church later outlawed, while the things they tolerated were things that were also tolerated by the Catholic Church. There were some particular exceptions of brief persecutions of certain practices by specific Emperors, but the consistent prohibitions were pretty much the same.
And the motives were pretty much the same: curses and magical poisoners that made pacts with dark powers (ie witches) were seen as a menace in almost every culture, foreign teachings drew people away from the state religion (which in Rome was also the Cult of the Emperor), astrology was dangerous if it was used for political propaganda, and charlatans and frauds feigning magical powers were bad for the economy.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 18, 2024, 08:51:07 AMWell, I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here. Holy Men or Saints or preachers would heal and do other things by prayer and faith alone, and they certainly didn't identify themselves as magicians or hermetics or occult philosophers.
But both folk-tradition wise men/women and hermetic magicians, while identifying as Christians, and using christian purification and prayer in their ritual magic, still DID ritual magic. They weren't thinking of what they were doing as just prayer or just "gifts of the holy spirit" or something like that, they understood that what they were doing was a ritual, and that it was part of an ancient tradition.

Wow, ok.  This one came as a bit of a shock to me.

It's not a question of doing or not doing the rituals, it's a matter of context.  I think the best way to explain it is by describing what I have seen and experienced of modern Christian ritual practice and the mindset of the practitioners. 

Yes, there are both clergy and lay members in Christian faiths that engage in mystic ritual.  Indeed, many of the rituals I have seen and participated in are fairly similar to some of the rituals you describe in The Invisible College.

The Seven Sacraments are the cornerstone of Catholic beliefs and are absolutely mystic ritual.  Eucharist, for instance, is held that during the ceremony the wafers and wine become part of the body of Christ in a literal sense.  I have never met a priest that would have been ok with you calling the sacraments magic.

This holds for rituals of some of the Protestant denominations as well.  If you were there and called it magic you'd get a rather strong reaction and possibly some violence.  From their viewpoint, Hermetic ritual is a bastardization of sacred rites.

Based on reading I've done, I don't think this view is new.  There is plenty of evidence that many of the rituals are very old and predate Christianity.  (I think some predate any known language.)  It's also not unusual for Christianity to absorb rituals and tweak them to fit doctrine.  The Christian argument is that when done in proper context, it's a form of worship and submission to God whereas magic is done to to enrich and empower one's self.  The first is holy and the second is blasphemy.

You mentioned Albertus Magnus.  From a conservative Catholic viewpoint, he wasn't a mage but a holy man redeeming holy rituals and practices and restoring them to their rightful place under God's grace.

If you see this as nothing more than an argument of semantics, I sympathize.  If you don't see the distinction between holy rites and magic ritual, join the club.  There's a lot of internal hostility in Christendom over this issue.  A lot of death and violence has occurred precisely over the argument of where the line between the two is.

One thing that might help in the whole "magic" department is to remember that language is not a constant thing.

The modern sense of the word "magic" only goes back to the 14th Century. Prior to that magikos referred mainly to the acts of various priestly classes (see the Biblical Three Magi... who were priests from the East).

In period there would be terms like Wiccacraeft (witchcraft) and Drycraeft (Dry was derived from the Irish Drui... from which the modern term Druid came) along with Sorcier (later Sorcerer, but derived from "caster of lots" and in terms of seeing the roots... say it as sorSEER) all referring to what we're lumping under "magic."

Basically... if you want this discussion to make more sense, replace every instance of "magic" with "supernatural" and "magician" with a wide array of terms (priest, wiseman/woman for legitimate ones and wicce, dry, sorcier etc. for illegitimate ones).

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 18, 2024, 03:32:47 PMOne thing that might help in the whole "magic" department is to remember that language is not a constant thing.

The modern sense of the word "magic" only goes back to the 14th Century. Prior to that magikos referred mainly to the acts of various priestly classes (see the Biblical Three Magi... who were priests from the East).

In period there would be terms like Wiccacraeft (witchcraft) and Drycraeft (Dry was derived from the Irish Drui... from which the modern term Druid came) along with Sorcier (later Sorcerer, but derived from "caster of lots" and in terms of seeing the roots... say it as sorSEER) all referring to what we're lumping under "magic."

Basically... if you want this discussion to make more sense, replace every instance of "magic" with "supernatural" and "magician" with a wide array of terms (priest, wiseman/woman for legitimate ones and wicce, dry, sorcier etc. for illegitimate ones).

The term I have most often heard used is sorcery. This is as old as the hills.  It's also the modern umbrella term used by many Christian denominations for anything supernatural that isn't directly from God.

In the New Testament, the story of Simon is often used as a cornerstone of understanding the relationship between Christianity and the use of supernatural powers.

QuoteActs 8:9-25

9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which before time in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

How this is interpreted will be based on the denomination.  Most do agree that this is a story that show that it's a sin to engage in any form of sorcery and you should only rely on the power of God.

Then there is the discussion of the Holy Ghost which leads down another avenue of inquiry that will get your head spinning...

As far as the three Magi, I have seen a lot of arguments and theories as to who they were and where they came from.  I believe they were Zoroaster priests from Parthia but that's just a guess based on my reading.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 10:21:45 PMThe answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

Complicating this is the fact that modern Wiccans are rather prone to making false and rather outlandish claims about witches and witchcraft in the Middle Ages.  One of them is buried in the phrase modern Wiccans.  This implies that there was such a thing as ancient Wiccans.  This fits in with the claims made by some Wiccans that Wicca is the survival of some Pre-Christian European tradition.  This is simply false.  All Wiccans are modern Wiccans.  Wicca is a modern practice invented in the 1950s by a guy named Gerald Gardner aka Scire.  The ancient coven that supposedly inducted him was pure fabrication.  He made it all up.  There are some rather outlandish claims about the persecution of witches by the Church in the Middle Ages too.  People talk about "The Burning Times" when millions of witches were supposedly burned by the Catholic Church.  Supposedly, so many witches were burned that the smoke blackened the sky.  This claim is, of course, absurd.  Some Wiccan authors, like Scott Cunningham, are honest about the origins of Wicca while others still promote these falsehoods. 

Then again, there are people who still promote Margaret Murray's work as if it had any validity at all.

Perhaps to make it clearer, I was specifically trying to address the question of "didn't priests work magic too?"

The answer is best understood if you know that the word "magic" in its modern extremely broad definition didn't exist back then ("magic" didn't even get associated with sleight of hand/legardimain performances until the 18th Century and only became an umbrella term for "use of supernatural forces" during the Renaissance.

The modern sense of "magic" tends to distinguish the source of the supernatural power. If its God or science then it's not magic. So the priest doesn't work magic, he's performing miracles. The village wise men/women used proto-science (which back in the day was seen as supernatural in that it relied on principles and forces not fully understood).

In a way it was kinda like the Eskimos and their "17 words for snow." Because it was seen to be everywhere, the people back then had many different terms for different types of what we'd just dump under the header of "supernatural/magic."

The easiest way in modern language for me to distinguish it is "yeah, everyone was using supernatural forces, but not everyone was using the forbidden supernatural forces."

Priests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

Quote from: BadApple on May 19, 2024, 12:53:04 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

I have had this conversation with my devoted aunt and mother. We're all faithful Catholics.

This perspective isn't anything radical for Catholics. We believe Satan is real and he and his demons prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. A demon is just an angel that broke faith with God and so retain all the abilities natural to angels. They are not (yet) confined to Hell but remain free in the world. We believe in Demonic oppression and possession and that our bishops and priests have been granted authority by God to cast out the fallen angels and perform other signs and wonders as needed to fulfill God's plan.

We declare the reality of supernatural powers at work in the world every time we recite our Creed and say we believe in "all things visible and invisible." We believe that there is a spiritual war going on in the invisible world for the souls of Men.

We call upon God because we can be sure of His intentions (because He entered the world, taught us, and then died as payment for our transgressions against Him because of His love for His creations) and so can be sure that calling upon Him for aid is safe for us spiritually and can even cast out any and all evil spirits.

We do NOT know for certain the intention of any other spirit and that many seek to lead us into eternal damnation, which is why interacting with them, except by trained experts (i.e. exorcists), is forbidden and even apparitions claiming to be angels or saints are studied for years before they're either declared invalid or "worthy of belief" (note - not REQUIRED for belief).

As relates to the subject at hand, this isn't that far off from the understanding of Medieval Catholics about "magic." There isn't a hard divide between "natural" and "supernatural" because all of it was created by God. Smiths knew secrets (arcane and occult both essentially mean little known/secret) they wove into the items they created; the sword of a master smith had properties beyond what was understood to be natural at the time.

What mattered at the time (and is still the basis for Catholic understanding of Charisms and other spiritual gifts) is using the gifts given by God for the good and to avoid instances of sin which hostile spirits (that can disguise themselves as benign ones) will seek to lead us into, and we leave ourselves particularly open to that when we deliberately call upon those other spirits.

It may seem shocking to the Protestants, but to devout Catholics the Medieval mindset on the supernatural and spirits; miracles and magic; isn't all that alien to us.

Chris

Well said.

I started a Sunday school lesson today for my adult class that covers that exactly. I' Baptist, so some of our beliefs may be a little different, but the core of it is the same.

We may not see or understand 'the spiritual world/war' but it is there and we are dead center of it.

Now place that back in time 500+ years, with less knowledge in the science side of the house, and significantly more belief in spirit side, plus, as CS Lewis points out 'the fact that the under command of the fallen angels allowed mages to actively be made' and you have a view that yes priest cause miracles from God with their prayers, village wise men/women know the tricks to chase off ilf sickness for your cow (and other special little secrets some form the good side, some may be from the bad side so be careful) and some fall to the fallen side even if at first the spirit seems good, but it leads those that follow it astray.

I have mentioned before that in some stories Oni possess the magical art of creating new life out of mixed human remains. A 13th century Japanese text expands on this idea giving a process which could be learned from the Oni (but still requires their cooperation):

Take assorted human remains and organize them into a complete human form or at least a complete skeleton. Paint the bones with arsenic, then sprinkle crumbled hebiichigo over them, then sprinkle leaves of chickweed over them. Tie the bones together with threads and vines and wash them many times with water. Rub upon the skull, in the region from which hair grows, ash from burnt leaves of saikai (saikachi) and Hibiscus. Keep the body protected from the wind and rain and wait for a period of fourteen days or more. Before beginning the next part of the operation the caster must have fasted and remained pure for seven days. Burn musk and milk in veneration of the Oni and miscellaneous daemons before performing the Secret Rite of Soul Recalling (a multi-purpose necromantic ritual jealously guarded by certain Tendai, Shingon, and Onmyo lineages).

If all goes well the caster will have created a perfect simulacra of a human being with unique features inherited from the remains used. If all doesn't go well the ritual may fail or create a sickly person trapped in a vegetative state though they may be able to moan or make meaningless utterances. It should be noted that humans created with this spell, while intelligent, have no soul and are incredibly fragile. The creature must be treated gently and taken good care of lest they break and return to their constituent elements; however, if 100 days pass without incident ensoulment will occur and they shall be true humans.

It is worth noting that humans performing this art can gain the notice of gods or spirits of the underworld who will be angered by this behavior. It is possible that one may get off with a warning (perhaps in a dream) on a first offense, but a curse (likely a deadly one) is likely. Also worth noting is that there are tales of Oni using this practice in a partial form to restore severed limbs or other body parts. For example, an Oni tears off the arms of a monk and shortly thereafter another Oni to whom the monk once showed compassion passes by. This Oni creates and attaches new arms for the monk created from the remains of the dead.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 08:33:57 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 10:21:45 PMThe answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

Complicating this is the fact that modern Wiccans are rather prone to making false and rather outlandish claims about witches and witchcraft in the Middle Ages.  One of them is buried in the phrase modern Wiccans.  This implies that there was such a thing as ancient Wiccans.  This fits in with the claims made by some Wiccans that Wicca is the survival of some Pre-Christian European tradition.  This is simply false.  All Wiccans are modern Wiccans.  Wicca is a modern practice invented in the 1950s by a guy named Gerald Gardner aka Scire.  The ancient coven that supposedly inducted him was pure fabrication.  He made it all up.  There are some rather outlandish claims about the persecution of witches by the Church in the Middle Ages too.  People talk about "The Burning Times" when millions of witches were supposedly burned by the Catholic Church.  Supposedly, so many witches were burned that the smoke blackened the sky.  This claim is, of course, absurd.  Some Wiccan authors, like Scott Cunningham, are honest about the origins of Wicca while others still promote these falsehoods. 

Then again, there are people who still promote Margaret Murray's work as if it had any validity at all.

As demonstrated by European fairy-tales, witches were originally not conceived to be human at all, but cannibalistic monsters/demons who looked like elderly women. "Witch" and "hag" were thus synonymous.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

Quote from: WERDNA on May 20, 2024, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

I think 6, yes. Not the one that just came out, the next one.

Going to repost this as not everyone is going to look at the S&C review thread but this info is useful being the origins of Magic items in Sword & Caravan:

Armband vs. Poison: "The 'Armband vs poison' is from a Persian bazuband talisman." -RPGPundit
Cloud Shoes: Journey to the West. I think Sun Wukong had them.
Coin Talisman vs. Missiles: Chinese. Possibly made in the likeness of the Luobao Jingqian.
Eye Amulet: Likely the Turco-Middle Eastern Nazar, but apotropaic amulets depicting eyes have been around since the Bronze Age.
Hiding Mask: Clearly of Chinese origin, but from what story?
Demon Glass: Could be the Zhaoyao Jing/Demon Revealing Mirror. Same powers but the latter is a mirror.
Devouring Jug: ???
Emerald Sword: Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegār of Solomon?
Blood Dagger: ???
Magic Leopard-Skin Cape: Babr-e Bayan, a part of the armor of the Persian Hero Rostam, it protected against fire, water, and weaponry.
Garuda Feathers: Sounds Indian at first, but the power is identical to the Persian Feathers of Simurgh.
Jar of Birds: ???
Horned Helmet: Helmet of Rostam made from the skull of Div-e Sepid, Persian?
Leopard Skin Bag: Journey to the West, Baopi Nang of Nezha
Magic Lantern: ???
Magic Pearl: Presumably one of the 24 Ocean Calming Pearls from
Investiture of the Gods
Trapping Jar: Likely Chinese, items like this are seen frequently in media
Wind Fan: As above. There is one in Journey to the West as well.
Two-Sided Mirror of Life & Death: The Yin-Yang Mirror of Kunlun.
Flaming Spear: Nezha's Fire-Tipped Spear?
Flying Mace: ???
Fire Resistant Coat: ???
Three-Pointed Spear: May well be the Three-pointed double-edged lance of Erlang Shen
Shield-Piercing Spear: Appears in a Chinese fable along with an unpierceable shield.
Lightning Mace: Based on the mace of the Zoroastrian weather spirit Tishtrya?
Long-Firing Bow: ???
Stone Bell: ???
Wooden Sword: ??? , it's not a Peach Wood Sword is it?
Yellow Sword: ???
Leather Standard: Likely Persia. If so this is a banner made from the leather apron of the blacksmith-turned-rebel-hero Kaveh who fought the tyrant Zahak. Of course, it may not be this exact banner but any of the Derafsh Kaviani banners of leather made in imitation of it in Persian dynasties down to the Sassanids (although theirs was allegedly destroyed by Caliph Umar). The banner is decorated with gems in a sort of lotus pattern.

Edit: I guess triple question marks is an emoticon code. Neat.

Edit II: Just an item found in my research I thought was neat:
Linglong Baota (Exquisite Pagoda): A pagoda, only several inches tall when not in use, which can be used to imprison all manner of demons, ghosts, and spirits within.

I'm going to be honest in saying that just now I don't remember where some of the ones you didn't identify came from, but they were all from different sources on or adjacent to the Silk Road (so all the actual silk road cultures: Arabic, Persian, Turkik, Mongol, Chinese, Tibetan, Afghan and Indian).

The "Armband vs poison" is from a Persian bazuband talisman.

Learned about a couple Arabic grimoires of the medieval period recently. Hard to say what's in them exactly since I don't know Arabic but allegedly Jinn conjuration and related talismans like what Pundit is working on for Pundit Files are among the spells. Would probably be cool to drop in an S&C campaign as a method for characters to learn such arts.

The books:
al-Shamil fi al-bahr al-kamil by al-Tabasi (d. 1089)
Kitab al-Shamil wa Bahr al-Kamil by al-Sakkaki (d. 1229)

Of course, Shams al-Ma'arif by al-Buni (d. 1225) is also rather notable; I just happened to know of it already.

There is also one Kitab al-talasim al-akbar attributed to Apollonius. I believe the magic Apollonius lantern from L&D is mentioned in this text.

There is apparently a mace belonging to the Zoroastrian spirit Tishtrya by which he allegedly conjured storms (I have found no scholarly sources for this info yet); this could be the origin of the lightning mace as Tishtrya is referenced in the Shahnameh which seems a major source of Pundit's magic items.

Also I ran across one example of myth of a far-flying mace: an artifact of the gods of ancient Sumer called Sharur which could also talk (very AD&D that); despite the fact the region is more-or-less right it seems a bit archaic for Pundit to have used in S&C set around 1200AD but who knows.

Quote from: WERDNA on August 22, 2024, 11:20:28 PMThere is apparently a mace belonging to the Zoroastrian spirit Tishtrya by which he allegedly conjured storms (I have found no scholarly sources for this info yet); this could be the origin of the lightning mace as Tishtrya is referenced in the Shahnameh which seems a major source of Pundit's magic items.

Also I ran across one example of myth of a far-flying mace: an artifact of the gods of ancient Sumer called Sharur which could also talk (very AD&D that); despite the fact the region is more-or-less right it seems a bit archaic for Pundit to have used in S&C set around 1200AD but who knows.

I did borrow some things from more ancient myths, because of course these aren't items that are meant to reflect the contemporary magic of the period, they are legendary items that will be found in ancient places. And ancient Persian, Indian, and other pre-Islamic myths continued to be very relevant in those societies in a similar way to how Greco-Roman myths kept being preserved long after their existence as faiths were over.

I feel confident that I'm right about the mace of Tishtrya then. Less so about Sharur being the flying mace since it's also intelligent but maybe you genericized it intentionally for the loot table or pulled it from a source that only mentioned it in passing. Idk

I kinda wish S&C had the background on magic items like L&D and BoF does now.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 21, 2024, 12:54:32 PM

Quote from: WERDNA on May 20, 2024, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

I think 6, yes. Not the one that just came out, the next one.

I finally purchased the magazine and read the article. I found it a good take on the creatures; however, I have a couple questions:

1. The article states these spirits to have become what they are 2500 or so years before the setting's timeline, but the figures in their origin stories are mostly from the time of the Yellow Emperor or early Xia dynasty which would be closer to 2500 BC than 2500 years before 1200AD.

2. From where does the description of the Qionqi come from? I am not familiar with the serpent-bodied, copper man-headed variant. I do know of the winged tiger and quilled bovine versions which I believe come from the Shanhaijing (the former being the most common in modern media).

Quote from: WERDNA on September 18, 2024, 07:43:26 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 21, 2024, 12:54:32 PM

Quote from: WERDNA on May 20, 2024, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

I think 6, yes. Not the one that just came out, the next one.

I finally purchased the magazine and read the article. I found it a good take on the creatures; however, I have a couple questions:

1. The article states these spirits to have become what they are 2500 or so years before the setting's timeline, but the figures in their origin stories are mostly from the time of the Yellow Emperor or early Xia dynasty which would be closer to 2500 BC than 2500 years before 1200AD.

2. From where does the description of the Qionqi come from? I am not familiar with the serpent-bodied, copper man-headed variant. I do know of the winged tiger and quilled bovine versions which I believe come from the Shanhaijing (the former being the most common in modern media).

1. That was a typo. I somehow screwed it up. Obviously, I meant to say around 2500 before Christ.

2. I can't remember the specific source, but from what I recall it was from some note about the subject where in early objects that seem to be depicting the four terrible creatures there's no sign of the tiger (or the quilled ox), but there is a serpentine monster. It speculated that at some point the depiction of the Taowu got mixed up with it. From an esoteric perspective, particularly when you connect (as I did) the four terrible creatures with the Sixiang (the four archon creatures of Chinese esotericism) it would make more sense to have a serpentine creature.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 19, 2024, 11:11:21 AM1. That was a typo. I somehow screwed it up. Obviously, I meant to say around 2500 before Christ.

2. I can't remember the specific source, but from what I recall it was from some note about the subject where in early objects that seem to be depicting the four terrible creatures there's no sign of the tiger (or the quilled ox), but there is a serpentine monster. It speculated that at some point the depiction of the Taowu got mixed up with it. From an esoteric perspective, particularly when you connect (as I did) the four terrible creatures with the Sixiang (the four archon creatures of Chinese esotericism) it would make more sense to have a serpentine creature.

If you ever remember your source let me know as I cannot find anything about this anywhere as of yet, and I'd be very interested to read more. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of using interpretations of early (I presume Shang, but that's just a guess) archaeological objects over the written sources popular in the setting-contemporary Song dynasty; but modifying the creature to fit another body plan is so ridiculously simple as to be insignificant. Furthermore, as a sort of spirit creature there is no reason for any form in particular to be the only one the apparition ever takes.

Quote from: WERDNA on September 19, 2024, 01:45:26 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 19, 2024, 11:11:21 AM1. That was a typo. I somehow screwed it up. Obviously, I meant to say around 2500 before Christ.

2. I can't remember the specific source, but from what I recall it was from some note about the subject where in early objects that seem to be depicting the four terrible creatures there's no sign of the tiger (or the quilled ox), but there is a serpentine monster. It speculated that at some point the depiction of the Taowu got mixed up with it. From an esoteric perspective, particularly when you connect (as I did) the four terrible creatures with the Sixiang (the four archon creatures of Chinese esotericism) it would make more sense to have a serpentine creature.

If you ever remember your source let me know as I cannot find anything about this anywhere as of yet, and I'd be very interested to read more. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of using interpretations of early (I presume Shang, but that's just a guess) archaeological objects over the written sources popular in the setting-contemporary Song dynasty; but modifying the creature to fit another body plan is so ridiculously simple as to be insignificant. Furthermore, as a sort of spirit creature there is no reason for any form in particular to be the only one the apparition ever takes.

That's true, and as you point out there were two very different regional depictions of the creature in the era.

Though I always interpreted the Astrological Talisman magic in L&D as being in the form of medallions or pendants worn around the neck (and this is common today and in the renaissance), I've found in my recent reading that in the High Middle Ages (specifically the 12th and 13th centuries) it seems rings were the most popular form for astrological talismans. Indeed, since many talismans only function when held in the hand this would be the most practical. It only would require an adjustment to the ring's position to activate, not unlike the legendary ring of Gyges.

Unrelated to the above, I've recently come across a translation of Ahmad Tusi's Persian Wonders of Creatures & Marvels of Creation (12th century) and am reading through it. The mentions of Nasnas are quite interesting. Several different versions of the creature are given with different origins, some jinn and some human. The author posits that there are in fact many different half-man creature throughout the world glossed as Nasnas which is perfectly correct in a sense. It is, after all, a recurring motif in many cultures though the nature of the being varies.

Quote from: WERDNA on September 18, 2024, 07:43:26 PMFrom where does the description of the Qionqi come from? I am not familiar with the serpent-bodied, copper man-headed variant. I do know of the winged tiger and quilled bovine versions which I believe come from the Shanhaijing (the former being the most common in modern media).

I was eventually able to answer this myself. The given description is not of Qionqi per se but of Gonggong in some versions of his myths. Despite the association/equivocation of Gonggong and Qionqi by some scholars, I probably wouldn't use that physical description since Qionqi has it's own in the works popular in the Song period.

Quote from: WERDNA on October 05, 2024, 02:06:19 AMI've recently come across a translation of Ahmad Tusi's Persian Wonders of Creatures & Marvels of Creation (12th century) and am reading through it. The mentions of Nasnas are quite interesting. Several different versions of the creature are given with different origins, some jinn and some human. The author posits that there are in fact many different half-man creature throughout the world glossed as Nasnas which is perfectly correct in a sense. It is, after all, a recurring motif in many cultures though the nature of the being varies.

Ahmad Tusi says one sort of Nasnas is unique to Southern Arabia. It bears the same form of one-side of a person split down the middle as other descriptions of Nasnas, but these are corporeal corrupted humans like Blemmyes or Cynocephali and do not kill by touch. These Nasnas were created when Allah cursed the inhabitant of 'Ad which was in that region (and included the legendary lost city Irem of the Pillars). Half the inhabitants became Nasnas and the others were turned into vampiric snake-men who kill by constriction having the heads and torsos of humans, but the lower bodies of serpents and the arms of a dog. Bizarrely, the Arabic tribes of the Hadhramaut are said to hunt, cook, and eat these Nasnas in Tusi and other sources. Scholars are divided on whether these beings may speak Arabic or not.

The Jinn-like Nasnas are considered to be born from the union of a Shiqq Jinn (of similar appearance to Nasnas) and a human or to have been made by Allah in an pre-Adamite phase of creation. A few anecdotes of these are given in which they play similar roles to ghuls (tricking, killing, devouring travelers, etc.). I did not see references to a notably incorporeal nature (anymore than other Jinn), creation of Nasnas via sorcery, or the instant death touch in this or other sources as of yet. Although I've seen passing mentions of the latter two online without much elaboration by Somalis, Arabs, and others.

Less related: I found this blog post with hook and treasure tables very relevant to a Sword & Caravan campaign.
https://whosemeasure.blogspot.com/2019/12/d18-plunder-of-arab-syrian-gentleman-d8.html (https://whosemeasure.blogspot.com/2019/12/d18-plunder-of-arab-syrian-gentleman-d8.html)

Double Riposte:

There is a general Liber Sacer/Liber Sacratus/Liber Consecrationis which should not be confused with the Liber Juratus. This is a book of names, powers and sigils of demons and spirits made with virgin parchment and a gem-encrusted cover which is then consecrated in a 7-40 day process (depending on the source of instruction). According to Michael Scot, some such book must be opened with strings attached to the pages as merely opening to a page will summon its spirit. Ganellus says each magister must craft his own and store it in a consecrated place (Magister's temple or the like) and be ritually pure when using it.

Ed: When Michael speaks of this Liber Consecrationis he speaks of demons in it known better from later goetic works: Belçebut (Beelzebub), Asmodiel (Asmodeus), and Egim (Egym).

A couple magic items of Elf-King Oberon for Medieval campaigns from the 13th century romance Les Prouesses et faitz du Noble Huon de Bordeaux:

-An ivory horn with golden strings: A magic horn enchanted by four nymphs of Cephalonia. If blown it plays a melodious tune which enchants those around to sing and dance merrily for a while. Additionally, it will cure disease, hunger, and thirst when blown. If blown at full power it summons the faerie king Oberon (who may choose to bring his retinue) to one's aid.
-A fine goblet: This goblet, when the sign of the cross is made over it three times, will fill with good wine. However, only those Christians in a state of grace may drink from it. For all others, the wine will vanish

Galdr Magic would be great for Baptism of Fire as Viking magic since they are well-attested in the Sagas unlike the Icelandic staves which, while cool as hell, are likely late medieval or later.

Odin himself lists 18 in the Hávamál, several of which have admittedly been adapted in Wolves of God.

• "Help," not much elaborated on how it helps (how unhelpful)
• A song which heals the sick and/or wounded as if one were a leech (doctor). This is To Be a Physician in WoG.
• A song which blunts the blades of enemies and may also weaken the blows of weapons like staves (translations differ). This is To Blunt the Sword-Edge in WoG.
• A song which frees one from bonds and fetters which is mentioned in multiple poems and may be equated with the Merseburg charm. This is To Open Bonds and Fetters in WoG.
• A song to slow the movement of an arrow in order to avoid it. This is To Slow the Arrow's Flight in WoG.
• A song to return a curse to its sender. The curse itself is described as being carved on the roots of a young tree, somewhat reminiscent of sticks with rune-curses on them uncovered from the 1300's iirc.
• A song which either puts out a fire or protects people from being harmed by it (depending on the translation, could be treated as two different galdr). This is to Quench the Blaze in WoG. WoG also has an inverted form of this spell which maintains a fire.
• A song which calms the hate between warriors so that peace may be had. This is To Dispel a Warrior's Hate in WoG.
• A song which calms the wind and waves in order to sail safely. This is To Calm Weather and Seas in WoG.
• "A tenth [song] I know: when at night the witches
  ride and sport in the air,
  such spells I weave that they wander home
  out of skins and wits bewildered."
  May also affect certain supernatural creatures but definitely would be the bane of several magical pagan powers in BoF. This is interpreted as To Dazzle Flying Ones in WoG.
• A song for safety in battle sung beneath the shields of a warband. May have been interpreted as enchanting a shield in WoG.
• A song used in tandem with runic spells painted on the corpse of a hanged man to animate(?) and get him to speak his secrets, i.e. classic necromancy. This is For Making the Hanged Walk in WoG.
• A song to protect younger warriors OR children who will become warriors sung along with splashing them with water from a cup (again translation differences). This is To Safeguard the Geoguth in WoG.
• A song to obtain knowledge of the supernatural, gods and elves. This is To Know an Uncanny Wise in WoG.
• The song sung by Thjodrerir the dwarf at dawn and he sang strength to gods, skill to elves, and wisdom to Odin. This is Of a Mighty Dwarf-Song in WoG.

The 16th and 17th are closely related being love-enchantment galdr. Either 17 is a stronger charm than 16 for shier maidens, or 16 incites love while 17 enchants the target to stay with the user. 18 is a secret to all but Odin.

The poem Grógaldr lists 9 galdr spells; most of which are the same. Those that differ include a song against harm from frost, a song against drowning, and a song to grant wit in a battle of words. There are also poems where galdr are used to pronounce relatively specific curses on a victim such as in Skírnismál. This latter poem also mentions the gambanteinn wand.

Some Anglo-Saxon galdr likely had Norse counterparts as well. For a Swarm of Bees particularly seems to have had similar variants throughout the Germanic world.

Edit: Forgot the Grógaldr incantation against a curse from the "wraith of a Christian woman."

Quote from: WERDNA on October 05, 2024, 02:06:19 AMaissance), I've found in my recent reading that in the High Middle Ages (specifically the 12th and 13th centuries) it seems rings were the most popular form for astrological talismans. Indeed, since many talismans only function when held in the hand this would be the most practical. It only would require an adjustment to the ring's position to activate, not unlike the legendary ring of Gyges.

Yes, rings can definitely be used for talismans. Also, in a recent Pundit Files I pointed out that similar talismans in Persian magic were used as arm-bands.

That's some really fascinating stuff you collected!

A Demon Prince from alleged Renaissance material said to have a pact with Faust alongside Mephistophilis:

AZIEL, ASIEL, or AZEEL is a Great Prince of the Infernal regions. He will seek to tempt the conjurer into a pact. He appears when called as a Bullock or a winged androgynous anguiped with three faces (L to R: Lion, Horned Bearded Man, and Dragon? or Wolf?) and a halo of hell-fire. If commanded to take human form in the summoning triangle, he will appear as a youth of 12 years. His known powers are to reveal hidden treasures in the earth and sea, bring in wealth especially coin, detect thieves, teach magic, and fly the conjurer wherever he wishes instantly upon a cloak.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEizKcV_bAu69dyE53C2cfAgchk3bZles0EzfJqrY3vwLw_S3JV16ZX3n9K6jv2GyEU0gv_fGpkA5g-iFbjOL-hknmhNkkqpAR2R9yH_xuurkLfHveVfx96KtQyGQYp7LCd7hRjBjg/s1600/dasklosterweltli02sche_0919.jpg)

Most of this material is from the German Das Kloster and his physical appearance seems to have been linked to the Hoellischer Proteus image. A demon of the same name (but who may have been intended as Azazel/Azael) has a pact with the fictional late 12th century sorcerer, Simon de Belleme, in the British TV series Robin of Sherwood. The de Bellemes were actual Norman nobles of the period iirc.

I was disheartened to learn about medieval treasure law. Effectively everything you find belongs to the king/duke/emperor from at least the 12th century. It's your land? Doesn't matter. The Church's land? The Church may or may not get a share of the "royal" gold.

In some areas archaic customs might have allowed for the land owner and/or finder of a horde to get some of the value, but in most of Western Europe this was not the case. Keeping any or even reburying and forgetting about the loot is fraud btw. See it, report it. Also anytime you explore a barrow for valuables:

"Oy mate, ya gotta loicense fer dat?"

I kid you not, you had to have one. For Roman ruins oftentimes too.

Now on the ground, plenty of people of various social classes would and did go after treasure hauls anyway (local lords included) and ignored all the rules, but it was risky business. You could always get a loicense and search for loot in the King's name and probably get paid if you find something of course.

Now in the unlikely event of a Medieval Authentically cultured hell-spawned (because anything of value in the earth must belong to the Devil until reappropriated) Megadungeon campaign, one can assume the laws would have exceptions made due to the dangers posed in obtaining the treasure. However, I imagine, based on early modern law, that the Crown would still be entitled to around 1/4 of your dungeon loot.

Six more Faustian demons from Das Kloster:

ARIEL, ARIELIS or ARARIEL is a Mighty Prince and Grand Duke of the Infernal Regions. He rules over things upon and under the earth and has many legions. He will treat the conjurer only as decently as he himself is treated. He appears when called in the guise of a vicious dog. His known powers are to reveal the treasures of the old gods (or those of the earth and sea in other sources) and to harm or kill others.

MARBUEL or MARBUELIS is a Prince and Grand Duke of the Infernal Regions. He is oppositional to the conjurer by nature and difficult to control. He appears in the form of an aged lion, a fully armored warrior, or as a youth of ten years. He holds power over the mountains and things related to them. His known powers are to reveal hidden treasures in the earth or waters, teach secrets or the virtues of herbs, and to bestow honors.

MEPHISTOPHILIS or MEPHISTO is a Prince of the Infernal Regions. He will seek to corrupt the conjurer and lead him into perdition. He may appear as a youth, a man, a monk, or a typical devil figure. He reveals and brings the hidden treasures of the earth, grants familiars, is the master of all manner of arts, and will seek to fulfill the conjurer's every desire to the detriment of his soul. Based on the legends, he also has powers of Bountiful Harvest, Find Hidden Wells, Profit, Illusions, to bring items from far away regions, and more. Some of these may be powers of his servant demons he sends forth and not his own, of course.

BARBUEL, BARUEL or BARFAEL is a Prince of the Infernal Regions. He is most accommodating in nature and eager to please the conjurer. He appears when called in the form of a wild hog or as a master artisan wearing an apron. He has power over the waters and seas as well as the beings that dwell within. He teaches all arts and secrets (including those of Alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone) and reveals hidden treasures.

AZIABEL or ACIEBEL is a Prince of the Infernal Regions. He too is most eager to please when properly summoned. He is said to appear as a small child, sometimes wearing a large pearl crown. He holds power over the waters, seas and many spirits of the waters and mountains of the world as well as the treasures they possess. His known powers are over sunken treasures, legal matters, honors, wealth, majesty and all things of happiness.

ANIFEL, ANISEL, ANITUEL or ANIGUEL is a Prince of the Infernal Regions. He appears as youth of ten years of age or as an Edenic draconcopede, being a serpent with a woman's head (and sometimes bosom; variously depicted in medieval art as like a wyvern, cockatrice, or winged and legged snake in body type). His known powers are to bestow honors or wealth and to reveal hidden treasures in the earth.


There appears to be several versions of this Faustian list, all of German origin. A 16th century Faustbuch leaves off Mephistopheles (replacing him with a mention of Astaroth, perhaps the ruler over these princes) and Ariel, but adds the following spirit:

MACHIEL has no given rank, but is mentioned among Princes in the list. The spirit appears as a beautiful maiden when called. Her known powers are to bestow dignities, honors, and assistance in legal matters. She seeks to guide the conjurer into virtue.

This last spirit seems less like the surrounding demons and is more likely a neutral spirit of a moral nature an angel of the 6th heaven (Jupiter?). Her name appears in Hekhalot Rabbati and on a Jovian pentacle to calm storms in the Enchiridion of Pope Leo III as Machel.

Note: Apparently AZIEL also goes by ACIELIS. He also holds the rank of Grand Duke; his planet is the Sun; he has many legions, has power over the element of earth, and has a servant demon called CARMIELIS.

Note II: These demon princes are also sometimes called elector-princes in Holy Roman fashion, so they may have lower titles, such as count, and lesser power levels in truth.

An attempt at giving the Nine Hells of the Inferno appropriate ruling demon kings based on the late Medieval idea of the Seven Demon Princes of the Deadly Sins compared against the major sin of the circles:

• According to Dante the first circle is Limbo. Limbo is home to virtuous pagans and not associated with a sin to my recollection. As such I did not give it a ruler, but if one is desired the spirit called APPOLYN, APPOLYON, APOLHUN or ABADDON could be decent. His nature is appropriately dubious, appearing in some works as a demon king and in others as God's destroying angel of the Pit. He rules over the locust-monsters of the Apocalypse of John. Some less educated European Christians falsely believe the Saracens worship this spirit. His known powers are to teach knowledge through a servant demon granted in a dream in which he appears as a human king.
  
  
• The second circle is Lust. The demon king most associated with this sin in Medieval lists is the King called ASMODEUS, SIDONAI, ASMODIEL or ASHMODAI, likely due to the Book of Tobit. This demon is well detailed in the Ars Goetia and thus can be found in Pundit Presents, Old School Companion 1, and The Invisible College.
  
  
• The third circle is Gluttony. The demon king BELPHEGOR, BALPHEGORE, BELFEGOR or BAAL PEOR is associated with this sin, although more commonly with Sloth which lacks a circle in Dante. He appears as a horned, tailed and bearded monstrous humanoid or as a beautiful woman. This demon was worshipped with feasts and orgies as a phallic fertility god by the ancient Moabites. He will seek to tempt the conjurer into unchastity, idleness, or a pact. His known powers are to grant riches, teach arts and sciences in pursuit of discovery and invention, to control the fertility of the land bringing Bountiful Harvests (as per the L&D rules) or making the fields barren, to control the fertility of living things, to cause lust in men and especially women, and to bring forth rain. He also answers questions about the past, present, and future.
  
  
• The fourth circle is Greed. The demon king called MAMMON, MAIMON or MAYMON is associated with this sin, his name being derived from a word for wealth in Aramaic. He may have some connection to the Roman god Plutus who Dante encounters and whose name has the same meaning of "wealth" and also to the winged Jinn King Maimun. He appears in the form of a monstrous humanoid with two bird heads and demonic faces upon his knees riding upon a wolf or red dragon although he may also take crowned human form. His planet is Saturn. Some say he was once worshipped as a wealth god by the ancient pagans of Syria. His known powers are to grant riches, to reveal hidden treasures in the earth, to hide treasures in the earth, to grant profit in business, to give False Gold (lead), to cause discord, to kill, and to maim.
  
  
• The fifth circle is called Wrath. While Satan is commonly associated with this sin, so is the king named BILECH or BELIAL according to Agrippa. Perhaps the Devil himself rules the circle, but dwells in the ninth leaving it under BELIAL's reign for all practical purposes. This demon is well detailed in the Ars Goetia and thus can be found in Pundit Presents, Old School Companion 1, and The Invisible College as BELAL.
  
  
• The sixth circle is called Heresy. The demon king associated with this sin is known as LAMATHAN or LEVIATHAN according to Dominican Order writings from 1613, although in Medieval works the demon is most commonly tied to Envy which has no circle. The leviathan is most known as a primal animal but appears as a ruling demon king in the Book of Abramelin and some late Medieval and Renaissance inquisitorial works. This demon likely appears as a dragon or some sea monster based on Medieval art. In this guise he may well encircle the City of Dis and his domain, the sixth circle, from within the Stygian waters. The spirit may also take a feminine appearance as leviathan is tied to the feminine and behemoth the masculine in some apocrypha. The demon's powers are unknown but it is clear he has power over the waters and that which is in them or upon them. He may also have power over serpents.
  
  
• The seventh circle is Violence. According to the aforementioned Dominican sources, the demon ruling this sin is the one called BERICH, BELFAYT, BERITH, BERTETH, BEHERIT or BALBERITH. He is commonly invoked as a Great King in grimoire incantations but is listed as a Duke with but 26 Legions in those same books. Perhaps this circle is a place of ceaseless feuding between Demon nobility only nominally controlled by BERITH. He is said to have been worshipped as a god by the ancient Shechemites and Phoenicians. This demon is well detailed in the Ars Goetia and thus can be found in Pundit Presents, Old School Companion 1, and The Invisible College as BEALFRY.
  
  
• The eighth circle is Fraud. It is here that the strange chaos creature Geryon dwells. However, the ruler of this circle is the demon king called BEELZEBUL, BELZEBUTH or BEELZEBUB. This demon king is said to rule over several sins depending on the author and is said to be second to Lucifer/Satan. For this reason, I placed him in the second lowest level (unintentionally, or subconsciously, echoing the AD&D Monster Manual). He is called a god of love and the Lord of the Flies and may take the form of said insect, a monstrous winged devil, or a handsome man. He was worshipped as a god by the ancient Philistines and Phoenicians. His known powers are to turn animals into men, men into animals, and animals to stone; to cause discord in mens' hearts or bring about wars; to bring people together in love; to bestow wealth; to reveal hidden treasures; to teach all sciences; to grant familiars; to answer the conjurer's questions; and to cause curses, bewitchment, diseases, and other evils. He has power over flies whether to call them, control them, or ward them off. He should be summoned in fair weather. He is a dangerous spirit who may attempt to slay the conjurer if he is not adequately protected or suffumigated by incense.
  
  
• The ninth circle is Treachery. Here that most prideful of demons who is called SATAN, SATHAN, SATHANAS, SATANAEL, HELEL or LUCIFER rules from his tomb of ice as first among the Great Kings of Hell. He appears in Hell as gigantic three-faced monstrosity with six giant wings ever gnawing on sinners. When summoned Satan appears similarly, but smaller, as a three-faced crowned devil riding upon a great dragon or behemoth. One Elizabethan grimoire has Satan appear as a beast with the head of a satyr when conjured; his forms are likely diverse including a satyr, seven-headed dragon, and angel of light. Strangely, many of these lists and grimoires like the Book of Abramelin treat Satan and Lucifer as separate entities (if so, the former may rule the circle of Wrath directly), but I have found no narratives* to make sense of this. As Satan, some of his known powers are Perdition (as per L&D rules); to cause misfortune in battle; to answer questions of things past, present, and future; to grant familiars; to teach all manner of sorceries; to find thieves and retrieve stolen goods; to bestow wealth and honors; to teach all arts and sciences; to cause deformity; to kill; to destroy; and to bring forth many kinds of evils.
  

*I later found scholarly claims that the two were treated separately in some medieval belief but were incredibly closely related. Satan basically acts as Lucifer outside the portion of hell Lucifer is bound in, like some sort of emanation of the latter's will. Satan is the Nyarlathotep to Lucifer's Azathoth if you will pardon the allusion. Lovecraft may well have been alluding to the relationship. A Renaissance grimoire also declares the necessity of this: Lucifer's binding in Hell's ice prevents his conjuration although he may still be invoked in spells.

When it comes to the hierarchies of the medieval devils, all are subject to the powers of the ruling princes of Hell: Lucifer, Sathan, Beelzebub and variable others. Beneath these, the various spirits are most commonly organized under the rule of the four kings of the cardinal directions. In the variants of Ars Goetia and Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, these are given as Zimimar, Gaap, Curson (or Gorson), and Amaimon and are assigned to the directions in varying orders. However from Medieval works, dating back to at least the time of Michael Scot, to Early Modern grimoires the four kings are most consistently EGYM of the North, ORIENS of the East, AMAIMON of the South, and PAIMON of the West. 

• EGYM, EGIN, EQUI or ARITON is a great and mighty King with 1000 legions. He appears as a crowned man of fair countenance riding upon a dragon. He has good teeth, flames issue from his mouth, and he holds two serpents in his right hand. He comes forth with a multitude of attendants making a great noise and roaring and before him will be all kinds of sweet sounding musical instruments. He teaches all philosophy, logic, and the Ars Notoria (see the Pundit's Book of the New Art for this system). He speaks of the entire universe, past, present, and future. He teaches hidden secrets and of the situation and disposition of the heavens, and of the earth, and of the abyss and its location, and of the winds and from where they issue. He grants good familiars, dignities and prelacies along with their confirmation. He can magically consecrate books and other objects and gives true answers to the conjurer's questions. The conjurer must look no direction but north during the summoning. He will eagerly accept sacrifices, burnt offerings, libations, etc. but will deceive the fools that make them; however, when called by burnt offering he will notably bring three other kings with his retinue when summoned.
  
  
• ORIENS, URIENS, URICUS or URIEUS is a great and mighty King with 200 Legions. He appears as a crowned woman or man with a fair and feminine countenance riding upon an elephant. He comes forth with a multitude of attendants and other kings and has before him playing trumpeters, shawm players, and minstrels with diverse instruments. He also appears as a horse, with either 5 or 100 heads according to some, when he is summoned alone. One grimoire also claims that he may take the form of a great red serpent, crowned and winged. He will do little or even be angered if not given offerings or sacrifice by the conjurer. When given offerings he will receive them gladly, take human or other desired form if he came otherwise, and fulfill all the conjurer's demands. He will answer all questions truthfully; grant good familiars; tell of the past, present, and future; grant wealth or any earthly treasure; teach the various sciences; consecrate books and other objects and teaches all sorceries.
  
  
• AMAIMON, AMAYMON or MAYRARY is a great and mighty King. He appears as a crowned old man with long hair and a beard riding upon a lion. His hair covers his eyes, his ears are like that of a horse's, and he holds a rod or war dart in his hand. He comes forth with a multitude of attendants, ministers, dancers, and musicians along with three other kings before him and comes with a great cacophony, thunder, lightning, and hellfire. He can magically consecrate books and other objects and gives true answers to the conjurer's questions. He grants wealth, good familiars, dignities and prelacies along with their confirmation. He teaches all philosophy, sciences, and the Ars Notoria. The conjurer must look no direction but south during the summoning. He will accept offerings gladly and these may calm his wrath if he is angered, but he will only ever remain obediently with the conjurer for an hour from his summoning. He is called a very dangerous spirit and the conjurer must always wear a silver Solomonic ring on the middle finger of his left hand held against his face during the summoning for his own protection from the demon's deadly breath.
  
  
• PAIMON, PAYNIM or PAYMON is a great and mighty King with 200 Legions. He appears as a crowned woman or man with a fair and feminine countenance riding upon a dromedary. This demon is well detailed in the Ars Goetia and thus can be found in Pundit Presents, Old School Companion 1, and The Invisible College as PAYMON; but Medieval sources reveal some differences from the Ars Goetia. PAYMON requires sacrifices to be willing to operate, but will just as readily accept a suffumigation of frankincense. PAYMON will also speak in unintelligible tongues when called by a fearful conjurer, so one should approach boldly. The demon also has the power to control fish, and he was of the Cherubim before the Fall. PAYMON's earliest attested detailing has but 40 Legions and instead comes with the kings BELIAL, who later stands alone, and BASAAM which became the Ars Goetia's BEBAL and ABALAM (i.e. BALAL and IMABAL). These additional kings may grant true invisibility.
  
  

I decided to go down the rabbit hole of some old manuscripts which were supposed to contain lists to see if there were any demons out there that did not make it into the Ars Goetia which is so well known. The sources I used were the German Liber Incantationum, the Italian Fasciculus Rerum Geomanticarum, the French Livre des Esperitz, the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, and the English version of the Liber Officiorum Spirituum found in the Sloane Manuscripts. There certainly were, and I learned some other interesting things along the way.

• AVEDIE, AVEDJE, ABECH, EBEYETH, ELYETH or ABETH is a great King of the South. He appears as a bodiless head crowned with a diadem. Two ministers with trumpets proceed before him. He teaches all logic, rhetoric, sciences, and languages. He gives excellent familiars. He also can get friendship. He gives true answers about the past, present, future, the arts, things secretly enchanted (or consecrated), secrets, and of the Fall and how the demons fell, but he is never truthful when outside of angled figures (such as the summoning triangle). He has 30 Legions (80 in other sources) of lesser spirits.
  
  
• BOAB or BOALL is a great president or Lord. He appears like a soldier with the head of a lion riding upon a black horse. He speaks with a hoarse voice and has fiery eyes and the teeth of an ox. He gives understanding of all natural things and even of the speech of animals. He moves silver and gold from place to place. He gives true answers about hidden things, the past, present, and the future. He has 40 (or 44) Legions.
  
  
• GORSON, GORSIN, GORSOR or GORSAY is a mighty Duke. He appears as a man with the head of a night raven or owl. His powers are to grant one the art of Pythian divination and to make one skillful in their occupation or tasks. He also can bring bandits and murderers to an appointed place, and he makes them suffer pain and torment if commanded. He has 12 (or 15) Legions and was of the Virtues before the Fall.
  
  
• YUDIFLIGES, JUDIFLIGES or IUDIFLIGES is a mighty Duke. He appears as a crow but can take human form. If ordered to, he can cause all who see him to hear a symphony of trumpets. He has every kind of instrument in his possession and can teach the conjurer how to play them. He is a good servant with 19 Legions.
  
  
• SAILMON, SAYLMON or ZAMON is a mighty Duke. He appears as a lion-headed man on a pale horse. He has an eagle on his arm and speaks in a harsh voice. His known power is to make peace among quarreling men and women. He controls 30 Legions.
  
  
• LANIMA or PRUUNAS is a great Count. He appears in the guise of an angel and speaks in an agreeable manner. He knows all the powers of herbs and can teach them to the conjurer. He has 20 Legions.
  
  
• RAS is a great Lord. He appears as a deer but may take a human form which speaks in a grave manner. He has the power to make beasts weak or lame. He grants goodwill from friends. He rules 69 Legions.
  
  
• TORCHA is a strong Duke. He appears as a griffon but may take a human form which speaks duplicitously in a harsh voice. He is able to control all flying and winged creatures and can grant noble titles and their confirmations. He may also be used in a ritual of image magic wherein a metal bird is fashioned for the conjurer and consecrated by the demon. This magic item, once placed, will gather to it all birds in the vicinity and they will sing and will be utterly tame even allowing themselves to be captured. The conjurer may then use the idol to control them how he wills. He surely has Legions, but the number is lost.
  
  
• ARA is a Duke. He appears as a dragon but may take human form. He can summon forth serpents to his position and control them. He may also be used in a ritual of image magic wherein a metal serpent is fashioned for the conjurer and consecrated by the demon. This magic item, once placed, will ward off all serpents from its vicinity. If the image is ever broken the enchantment will be lost, but it is otherwise permanent. He can additionally answer questions about the past, present, and future. He has 25 Legions.
  
  
• ACAR is a great Count. He appears as a cicada or cricket but may take a human form with a harsh voice. He gives true answers of the past, present, and future. He may also bestow love between men and women. He is said to be the prince of flies, locusts, and similar insects and may thus control them. He may be used in a ritual of image magic wherein a metal talisman is fashioned and consecrated by the demon. This talisman may be made either to ward away when placed; attract when placed; or control cicadas, flies, locusts and other such insects. He has 20 Legions.
  
  
• PARAGALLA is a great Marquis. He appears as a lion-headed soldier on a horse of flame. He has the power to control birds and beasts. He may also be used in a ritual of image magic wherein a metal figure of the magister as a soldier holding a sharp sword is fashioned and then empowered by the demon. This image has a strong curse and may be placed in the household of a king or of people with whom the magister quarrels or between a husband and wife. Its curse is to bring about the wounding, or even killing, by sword or dagger of the one the magister names as his foe. He has 30 Legions.
  
  
• PONICARPO is a strong Duke. He appears as a Man-at-Arms. He grants the love of women and true answers to the conjurer's questions. He may also be used in a ritual of image magic wherein a metal figure of a man-at-arms holding a sharpened weapon is made and then empowered by the demon. The image's power is to bind infantry. He has 30 Legions.
  
  
• LAMBES, JAMBEX, IAMBEX is a great Marquis. He appears in the form of woman with a pleasant voice. He grants the favor of nobles and the love of men or women. He may also be used in a ritual of image magic wherein a large wax figure of the magister should be fashioned with "amor amore vincitur" inscribed on its brow and this consecrated by the demon. By the power of this talisman the magister may gain the favor of all people that he may not be opposed or he may inflame a man or woman to love and summon them to him. He has 15 (or 25) Legions.
  
  
• TRIPLEX, TRIBLEX, FRIBLEX, FRIPLEX or COMPLEX is a great Duke. He appears as a beautiful angel and is a humble and loyal servant to the conjurer. He holds power over animals and the favor of nobles. He is greater than the others involved in image magic and by his empowered talismans all flying creatures, beasts, serpents, and even basilisks and dragons may be bound to the user's will and kept in cages, pits, cisterns, etc. He may also be used in another ritual of image magic wherein a crown of gold is fashioned and empowered by him. By this talisman, the conjurer will have the favor of a noble and even kings and may be established in a court or royal chamber. He has 43 Legions and was of the order of Principalities before the Fall.
  
  
• TAOB, HOABB, HOOAB, GOATHE or COAP is a great Prince. He appears as a black bird or as a man arrayed as a physician. He is a most excellent physician and knower of medicine for women. He has the power to grant the love of women, summon them to the conjurer, make them submissive, and may change their form that they may more easily come together with a lover when commanded (How Arthurian). He can also make women infertile. This spirit in Latin resembles both Gaap and Zepar/Globa, perhaps they derived from him via textual corruption. He has 25 Legions.
  
  
• TVUERIES, TUVERIES or SOWRGES is a great Marquis. He appears as a knight on a three-headed black horse, being those of a bird, horse, and fish, and has dominion in the realm of Africa. He teaches grammar, logic, rhetoric, and theology. He reveals hidden treasures and other secrets. He can cause journeys by water or on horseback to pass quickly and safely. He similarly can protect those crossing rivers. He is most probably the spirit which Cimeries developed from. He has 30 Legions.
  
  
• SUCAX, SUCHAY, DUCAY, LUCAY or FEWRAYN is a great Marquis of the West. He appears as a benevolent man with a fair woman's face. He gives the love of women, especially of widows; the understanding of all languages; and carries one swiftly from one place to another. He has 23 Legions.
  
  
• PRUFLAS, SUFFALES, BULFAS or BUFAS is a great Prince of the East. He appears as a flame of fire, but with the head of a night raven. He is said to haunt the area around the Tower of Babylon or where it was. He can cause discord, war, quarrels, and promotes falsehood. He will willingly serve, but lies in his speech unless he is properly bound. He has 26 Legions.
  
  
• DIUSION or DICISION is a great King. He appears as a handsome man. He gives true answers to the conjurer and reveals hidden treasures in the earth. He has 24 Legions.
  
  
• CARMOLA is a great Prince. He gives the understanding of the language of birds and can reveal thieves and murderers if commanded. He can also make the conjurer invisible and will answer any questions honestly. He has 26 Legions.
  
  
• LUCUBAR is a great Duke. He makes men cunning and skilled. He may also transform lead into gold and tin into silver.
  
  
• BITUR is a great Marquis. He appears as a handsome young man. He gives the love of women and destroys cities and castles if commanded. He may also cause one to lose a noble title or honor. This spirit's name is oddly similar to Bitru but his powers are more similar to Raum's. He has 36 Legions.
  
  
• DAM or JAYN is a grand Count. He appears as a handsome man. He brings gold, silver, or anything requested to the conjurer. He may cause an enemy of the conjurer to be weakened or even killed through disease. He also knows all the secrets of women and can cause them to strip and dance naked. This last power is the same as Bitru. He has 25 Legions.
  
  
• DISTOLAS is a great marquis. He appears as a handsome man. He is a willing servant. He can bring stone from any place desired and can give the conjurer an enchanted horse (likely a demon) which can bring the conjurer to any place he desires in the world within an hour. His name is suspiciously close to Stolas, but his powers differ entirely. He has 20 Legions.
  
  
• PARCAS is a great Prince. He appears as a handsome man. He knows the virtues of herbs and stones and can bring them to the conjurer if commanded. He makes men invisible, cures blindness, teaches all sciences, makes men young or old depending on the command, reveals hidden treasure, and brings whatever the conjurer desires. He may also carry the conjurer and other persons wherever the conjurer wishes in the world. He has 30 Legions. This spirit is just a very embellished FORAS from the Goetia found in a French manuscript, but it is worthy of note nonetheless.
  
  
• BEALPHARES, BEALPHARE or BEALPEARE is a spirit of the East (or North?). He appears as a beautiful man or woman. He is an excellent carrier of items or persons from place to place and gives true answers to the conjurer. He reveals hidden treasures in the earth and things lost or stolen. It might be that this spirit is the BEALPHEGORE or FEGOR mentioned to have been present in the grimoires according to Michael Scot. If this is so, he was once bound in the service of certain Roman priests in the image of an owl. On the other hand, it could be Saer, who has nearly the same description, or an unrelated demon altogether.
  
  
• NEOPHON or NEOPHEYN is a Lord of the East. He appears as a dog. He knows of the past, present, future, and all secrets. He gives the favor of nobles, noble titles, wealth, and calms discord.
  
  
• BUSIN, RUSYN or REWSYN is a Duke of the South. He appears as a beautiful woman with a hoarse voice. He can bring corpses from one place to another and send one spirit of his legions into a corpse and have it move, speak, follow commands, and do all that the living may do, except eat. He knows of the past, present, and future. He has 10 Legions.
  
  
• GORDOSAR, GORDONSOR, or GORDONIZER is a [Duke?] and President of the West. He appears as a holy angel but with a dark face. He is a powerful servant. He can truly answer questions regarding all things. The rest of his powers are written as "etc." and likely lost to time.
  
  
• BATATH or BALATH is a [Duke?] and President of the West. He appears as a misshapen figure with a hoarse voice. His powers are to make a healthy man sick or to deprive him of his senses (hearing, vision, etc.) or sanity. He also gives love, noble honors, and knowledge of the 7 liberal sciences and can carry the conjurer from one place to another.
  
  
• LAYME or ZAYME is a Count of the West. He appears as a raven. He may be sent out by the conjurer to bring money from wherever he may find it or a declared place and carry it wherever the conjurer appoints. He can show the conjurer the construction or current situation of any plot, town, or castle. He also grants noble titles.
  
  
• OZIA is a King of the North. He appears as an  old man riding an elephant. He can teach all arts and sciences. He grants invisibility and the favor of the one's enemies. He may also instantly carry one from place to place.
  
  
• VRIELL, VRIALL, or URIALL is a King of the North. He appears as a boisterous king with a hoarse voice. He grants invisibility and can transmute substances into others: iron or brass into gold and silver, wine to water, water to wine, and fools into wise men.
  
  
• SYNORYELL, SYEONELL, LYEONEL, LOONEX or SOONEK is a great Count of the North. He appears as a fierce bear or as a man or boy. He can answer all the conjurer's questions of things past or future, teach all the languages of men and of the beasts and birds, and reveals hidden treasures. He has 18 Legions.
  
  
• TESSEN or FESSAN is a [Prince?] of the North. He appears as a flame of fire with a hoarse voice. He teaches astronomy and mathematics. He gives true answers to all questions.
  
  
• GOYLE or MOYLE is a great Marquis of the North. He appears as a fierce lion with a griffin's wings or as a man. He can makes the conjurer beautiful and excites the heart to joy. He teaches all sciences and feats of arms and grants victory over enemies and the favor of nobles. He gives true answers to all questions. He has 13 Legions.
  
  
• AURAS is a Lord of the North. He appears as a wild ape or as a wild ass. His power is to carry corpses to whatever place the conjurer appoints. He gives answers to all questions.
  
  
• OTHEY is a Lord of the North. He appears as a cask of wine or a man with fiery, burning eyes. His power is to instantly create castles, towers, and towns. He truthfully answers questions.
  
  
• SARANYT is a Lord of the North. He appears as an ass with a woman's face. His power is to raise the shades of the dead that they may speak with the conjurer. He can also teach the 7 arts and liberal sciences.
  
  
• MURYELL is a Lord of the North. He appears as a white lion. He can inflame love between persons and reveal hidden treasures.
  
  
• UMBRA or HINBRA is a Lord of the North. He appears as a giant with a quiet voice which is near unnoticeable. He gives noble titles, friendship, and can move money from place to place when commanded. 
  
  
• ANNOBOTH, ANNOBATH, ANNABATH or ANABOTH is a Lord of the North. He appears as an armed knight on a pale horse with a double crown upon his helm and holding a lance. He teaches all sorceries, necromancies, chiromancies and other magics and reveals hidden treasures and tells if it enchanted or guarded. If the guardian is a demon of the North, he will banish it for the conjurer. He can tell the conjurer of wonderous and strange things if the conjurer asks. He has 18 Legions.
  
  
• TAMON is a great King. He appears as a goat. He reveals hidden treasures in the earth, and where precious stones are, and where to find various minerals and hidden money. He speaks foul and evil-favored without any discretion unless constrained not to. He has 50 Legions.
  
  
• DRUCHALL or DREWCHALL is a great King. He appears like a great horned stag. His power is to win castles or gold and he can cast those that guard them into a deep sleep. He may also make the field appear to be full of an army of harnessed soldiers. He has 36 Legions.
  
  
• KUBO, KOBO, KEWBO, ROBO, RUBO or CAAP is a great Prince. He appears as an armed knight, sometimes with a lion's head, on a black horse. His power is to bring gold and silver from wherever commanded and generally grant wealth. He gives true answers to the conjurer's questions. He has 20 (or 29 or 40) Legions.
  
  
• LEWTEFFAR, FALCAS or ABARAK is a great Prince. He appears as a diabolical monster with a hoarse voice riding upon a fire-breathing dragon: He has starry eyes, a head like a typical medieval devil crowned with a rainbow with a third eye in his forehead, a viper tail, hands like a bear, and feet like a mole. His breath exudes a sulfurous stench and he can breath fire. He speaks plainly but is a great liar and will attempt to trick the conjurer into believing he has summoned one of the 4 Kings of the cardinal points. He is desirous of sacrifice, loves music, and will tempt men and especially women into vanity and pride. He will at first behave confidently and be laughing, then become angered, and then desperate as the rituals of binding proceed. He may only be summoned in the 7th hour and may never cross over running water. He teaches astronomy, astrology, sorcery, geomancy, all liberal sciences, and he grants men the love of women, noble titles, promotions and their confirmations. He may also carry money or gold from anyplace to wherever the conjurer commands. He has 20 Legions.
  
  
• BARBARYES is a great Prince. He appears as an armed soldier holding a spear with a banner. He gets the conjurer the best of friends who would even stand with him against his enemies. He can cause a foe to lose his sight, hearing, or strength. He makes the conjurer wise and bold. His name sounds like either Barbas or Barbatos, but the description holds no similarity. He has 50 Legions.
  
  
• PORAX is a great and strong Prince. He appears as an angel yet black and very dark. His power is to build houses and various places, to divide lands, woods, and waters, to plant fruit trees and crops, to know the virtues of herbs, and to still waters. He has 9 Legions.
  
  
• AMADA is a Duke. He appears as a monstrous beast. He gives true answers of the past, present , and future. He has 42 Legions.
  
  
• GEYLL or GYELL is a great Count. He appears as an elephant or as a man with a hoarse voice in either form. He can control wild beasts and grant that control to the conjurer; can bring money or gold from any place ordered be it house, palace or otherwise and leave it where commanded; gives the best of familiars; and grants titles and confirms them. He has 50 (or 7) Legions.
  
  
• DEYDO or DEYOO is a great Count. He appears like a child. He makes trees to flourish and be green even out of season. He teaches all liberal and mathematical sciences as well as all languages. He has 414 Legions.
  
  
• ANSORYOR, ANSORIOR, ANTIOR or ANTYOR is a Lord. He appears as a warlike knight upon a pale ass with an eagle on his arm. He teaches medicine, necromancy, pyromancy, hydromancy, the virtues of herbs and stones, and the liberal arts. He can teach one the mastery of all those liberal arts in but 7 days. He gives true answers of the past, present, and future. He is desirous of sacrifices and will otherwise refuse to serve if not bound well. He is a good physician but is deceitful of nature. He has 20 Legions.
  
  
• BRYMAN, MYCIORON or MYCINIOROM is a great Count. He appears as a small goose. He teaches the virtues of herbs, stones, and flowers. He can teach one of all plants, fishes, birds, beasts, metals, and waters and of their properties. He can make one invisible and may also cause enemies to sleep continually unto death (unless dispelled). He is desirous of sacrifices. He has 30 Legions.
  
  
• GEMMOS is a strong Lord. He appears as a knight on a red horse with a strong voice. He teaches of the alchemical process by which lesser metals may be turned into gold, of herbs, of the Philosopher's Stone, of precious stones, of medicine, and of logic. He gives true answers about stolen goods. He was of the order of Archangels before the Fall and has 27 Legions. This spirit is suspiciously similar to Berith but lesser.
  
  
• NOOCAR is a noble Lord. He appears as an old man with a viper tail  and dirty hands and feet resting upon a staff with a voice like a screech owl. He is an obedient servant and will show things willingly but he will not speak truthfully unless compelled. He reveals normal treasures and treasures enchanted under the power of the 7 planets. He is an excellent teacher of necromancy, magic and of the best astrological times for such operations, of astronomy, astrology, and the virtue of herbs and stones. He always appears to be looking toward the heavens. He has 27 Legions.
  
  
• ARON, ARAN or ARAMBOS is a Lord. He appears as a man. He tells of the past, present, future, and of secret of hidden things. He grants the favor of friends and enemies, titles, promotions, and the confirmation of such through his deeds and words. He has 45 Legions.
  
  
• PAMELON or PAYNELON is a great Lord. He appears as a knight. He tells one of things in the water or earth and how to acquire them. He grants the love of maidens. He can compel other lesser spirits from the four cardinal directions to come to the conjurer. He gives true answers of all things. He has 10 (or 6) Legions.
  
  
• JOOREX or IOOREX is a great Lord. He appears as a stag with a small voice. He teaches how to make and play all manner of musical instruments and also astronomy. He can cause a man to win at all manner of games if bound into a ring and worn on the forefinger. He has 9 Legions.
  
  
• MAGEYNE is a Lord. He appears as hedgehog. He may serve the conjurer as a good and loyal familiar companion. He advises and helps a man in all manner of needful business, such as husbandry, farming, and the various occupations. He has 20 Legions.
  
  
• GASYAXE or GEENEX is a great Lord and Knight. He appears as a hare or a valiant serjeant-at-arms. He teaches the conjurer the art of binding demons into rings for answering questions; for winning games whether at dicing, card playing, bowling, or shooting; or for love. He also teaches how to make a scrying glass that one may see the truth and see whatever they may wish including things lost or stolen. He tells how one might force true answers from demons. If the conjurer binds him into the head of a dead man he will teach the arts of necromancy, magic, and all the sciences. He has 16 (or 20) Legions.
  
  
• BARTAX is a Lord. He appears like an old man. He reveals hidden treasure, who keeps it, and how it might be obtained. He has 4 Legions.
  
  
• LEBAN is a mighty Knight. He appears as a giant. He speedily carries persons and things wherever or from any place the conjurer wills. At the conjurer's command, he may even bring hills, mountains, castles, and all manner of riches wherever appointed. He has 40 Legions.
  
  
• DOODALL is a mighty Knight. He appears as a mounted knight with a spear of gold. He can call together lesser demons that he might form a council to remedy any unfortunate events that have happened against the conjurer though if he can advise one without a council he will do so. He has 6 Legions.
  
  
• CORNYX is a captain or serjeant-at-arms (a demon commoner?) and appears as a man arrayed as such. His power is to call together birds, to control them, and to bring them wherever desired. He has 7 Legions.
  
  
• MOSACUS is a common demon. He appears like a monstrous giant holding a crook and reaping sickle: he has the trunk of an elephant on his face, fiery eyes, the face of a dog on his right breast and the face of an ass on his left, faces like bloodhounds on his elbows and knees, a forked tail, eyes in his belly, and feet like a goose. He may also be requested to appear as a red-haired child. He will answer the conjurer's questions honestly. His power is to reveal hidden treasures.
  
  
• BIRTO is a common demon. He appears like a green wyvern or as a fair man, sometimes armed as a black knight. He can be made to truthfully answer the conjurer's questions about any and all matters and his office is to reveal hidden treasure. He was said to have been summoned at court for King Edward IV of England. He may only be summoned in the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th, or 12th day of the lunar month in clear weather.
  
  
• BARRON, BARAHAN, BARACHIN, BARO, BARYTH, BARAN or BARON is a mighty Prince. He appears like a monstrous satyr with a serpent's tongue or as a handsome young man. He can reveal hidden treasures, grant wealth, procure the love of maidens and bring them to the conjurer, cause discord, bring peace to strife, or bring anything desired to the conjurer. He is always desirous of sacrifice and will sometimes refuse to operate without an offering. He is perhaps most infamous for the attempted summoning involving Gilles de Rais.
  
  
• MAGOTH, MAGUTH, MAGOT or MAGOR is a great King. He brings whatever food, drink or books the conjurer may desire, grants invisibility, reveals thieves, transforms the conjurer into various (but still human) forms, detects magical effects, dispels magical effects, hinders the rites of other magicians, reveals hidden treasures, causes sudden music to be heard, and makes plays or great balls with dancers and all manner of minstrels to occur before the conjurer. Many spirits serve him.
  
  
• LUXURIOSUS, SUPERBUS and AVARUS are three succubus-like demons known to operate together. They take the form of maidens, sometimes with fiery, burning eyes. If conjured they will try to tempt or seduce the conjurer into a pact and are desirous of offerings. They can free one from bonds, fetters, and prisons and carry one from one place to another. They know the virtues of herbs and stones and how medicines or deadly poisons may be made from them. They can also create illusions such as a great many soldiers and deprive men of their senses (vision, hearing, etc.). They are also capable of building small structures such as bridges in one night.

There are some additional interesting facts to note. A Legion of demons is always a group of 6,666 according to both Michael Scot and Johann Weyer. I also learned from a footnote in one work that the hierarchy and Latin titles of demons in grimoires are parallel to that of the Carolingian Empire. In addition to familiar names like Aymon and Astaroth, Michael Scot briefly mentions a couple which seem to have been lost: MANDREC, MANDRAC, or MADRECH and GARGIFER or GURGIFFER. The spirits of the Goetia also differ in more ways than name when they showed up in the manuscripts, likely a result of textual corruption in later books. Any spirit appearing as a "strong man" was likely a bear originally. Crocodiles (ridden by spirits) may be instead cockatrices depending on the manuscript, a phenomenon also present in bestiaries. Forneus once appeared as a crowd of beings. Amon, Bune and Gamygyn all lost a power, the main one in the latter case, which is to call up the shades of the dead. Amon could do this for those that died in the sea and Gamygyn for those and also those that died in sin (Hell and Purgatory). Bune could do it for those in a cemetery or tomb. Bael could cause love. Amy or Avny could gain the favor of nobles. Vine could inflame lust between spouses (savior of marriages). Vassago lost most of his powers as a Prince when they were summed up as "etc." in later manuscripts:

• VASSAGO, VSAGOO, VZAGO, DYELAGOO or VASAGIO is a great Prince of the North. He appears as a beautiful angel or as a fair man. He is a trusty servant to the conjurer in all things. He makes one wise and invisible, transforms one into another shape, gives the love of women, reveals hidden treasures or lost items, and gives the favor of friends and foes. He gives true answers to questions even about the past or future. He has 26 Legions.

Edit: Attached is a doc with all the directional fealties, forms, and aliases I came across for the 72 spirits of the Ars Goetia.

I was researching astrology for the use of characters in a late 12th century Japanese scenario. I was surprised to learn that Japanese esoteric Buddhists used what was effectively a variant of western astrology with Chinese influence for natal horoscopes and finding auspicious timings. This having been transmitted to them via the Buddhists and Taoists of the Tang who seem to have acquired the knowledge from Persia. I'm not an astrology person so my understanding is not the greatest, but it seems that East Asian esoteric Buddhists of the early to high middle ages used a Vedic nakshatra-based system as well as this Western type system called sukuyoudo in Japanese.

There are some differences with western astrology that would mildly affect things if trying to represent this with Pundit's Old School Companion rules. Sukuyoudo also tracks ganzhi, earth branches, and Chinese lunar mansion-related information although I'm not sure how this is used. The 12 signs of the Zodiac and 12 Houses are effectively the same, but there are 9 not 7 planets. Ketu and Rahu, both malign bodies, are added to the planetary list and always appear 6 houses away from the other so as to be 180 degrees away on a circular horoscope. Any individual would have a rising sign, but only those born during the day have a sun sign. Similarly, only those born during the night have a moon sign. Most of what I've read seems to focus on the relation of planets and signs, so presumably with these shifts to Pundit's rules sukuyoudo and its Chinese equivalent can be emulated.

Interestingly both Chinese and Japanese astrology manuals related to this type of practice contain Picatrix-style astral magic to invoke the planets with information about proper offerings, mantras, garb color, incense, the form  of a precious metal image to be cast etc. for the purpose of warding off inauspicious influence or gaining benefits from a given planet.

My source:https://archive.org/details/buddhistastrologykotyk (https://archive.org/details/buddhistastrologykotyk)

A Pacific Northwest Native American tribe has long told a story about an evil 'basket' lady who basically served the same purpose as the bogeyman, teaching the value of human life and the need to be cautious of strangers.

Quote...the story of a giant cannibal woman who would kidnap children and carry them off in the basket on her back. As the story goes, there were people camping near a river, and their children ran off to play. The boy who was with them warned the girls of the basket woman, but she appeared and snatched up all of the children, putting them in her basket. She took them to her house, but the boy grabbed onto the limb of a tree branch, escaping the basket, but the woman didn't notice. The boy ran back to his people and told them about the other stolen children, and the people picked up spears to kill her with and began chasing after her. The woman had made a fire and placed stones in it to heat them. While the woman was dancing and had her eyes closed, the oldest girl suggested pushing her onto the stones when she got close to them. When the woman was close, the girls pushed her onto the stones, holding her there with a forked stick until she was cooked. The girls then left, heading back home, but they ran into the people and the boy who were coming to save them. The girls told them that the woman was dead, but the people did not believe their story, so the girls took them to the woman's house. After seeing the woman, they all went home...

http://www.kstrom.net/isk/stories/baskmaka.html

Got a couple monster descriptions that could be worked out for use in a Silk Road or East Asian campaign:

兵馬蟲 Bingmachong (Japanese reading: Heibachū)
These are a kind of spirit which manifests in old abandoned/haunted houses. As one may expect from the characters in the name, they mostly appear as warriors or court nobles on horseback but only around 5" tall, like some insects. They manifest at night in cavalry units of 40-50 and are usually part of an infestation of thousands (i.e. an army). The leaders of a unit are taller, up to 6". They will surround and attack people with bows, spears and swords in their masses where people sleep or dine and will raid food supplies even climbing onto tables and the like. Their weapons can injure people slightly, but are mostly just very painful. Bingmachong appear named in a Song record of a supernatural encounter and unnamed in an Eastern Jin and Japanese one. It is said that those that slay them have terrible curses and calamity fall upon them, but in the Japanese source a court lady slays them by tossing rice grain upon them as part of a Shinto folk magic purification and suffers no ill effects. It could be that slaying them with appropriate magics or miracles used against evil spirits does not invoke any curses. A Song dynasty writer speculates that they are ghosts formed when a large amount of people die in the same place at once or from mass graves, but the buildings in the other anecdotes bear no such histories. The Jin tale explains they are ant spirits led by a giant ant. The Japanese writer gives no explanation but that they were some kind of spirit. They seem to lair in storage spaces (there are in fact monsters in the closet).

鮫人 Jiaoren (Japanese reading: Kōjin or Samebito)
These are perhaps best known in the West from early modern Japanese folk tales where they appear as sharkish humanoids; however, in the Middle Ages both Chinese and Japanese sources seem to relate them to more typical merfolk, essentially humans with the tails of cartilaginous fish like rays or sharks. They are native specifically to the South China Sea and said to weep pearls and the women weave a water-resistant white silk called Shark Silk or Dragon Silk which they sometimes trade, along with pearls, for human goods in coastal communities and is worth over 100 silver tael among humans. It is said a slow-burning oil can be made from their bodies, a mere drop burns many days and a significant amount can burn for up to ten thousand years. It is written that the lighting in the lost tomb of Qin Shi Huangdi is fueled by this oil. Arab sailors are known to frequent the South China Sea and such monsters could be of use in either a Chinese or maritime trade route/Sinbad-style campaign.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 05:04:35 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 19, 2024, 12:53:04 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

It may seem shocking to the Protestants, but to devout Catholics the Medieval mindset on the supernatural and spirits; miracles and magic; isn't all that alien to us.

Interesting, and yes-- Catholics will actually do ceremonies to ward off evil house spirits and such, right? Jesus cast out Legion which then possessed swine which all suddenly turned suicidal and jumped from a cliff if my memory serves. And animal sacrifices are/were supposed to transfer sin/evil demons, I think?

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Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

It may seem shocking to the Protestants, but to devout Catholics the Medieval mindset on the supernatural and spirits; miracles and magic; isn't all that alien to us.

Interesting, and yes-- Catholics will actually do ceremonies to ward off evil house spirits and such, right? Jesus cast out Legion which then possessed swine which all suddenly turned suicidal and jumped from a cliff if my memory serves. And animal sacrifices are/were supposed to transfer sin/evil demons, I think?

Animal sacrifice is more a pre-Christian thing. For Catholics, Jesus said He was the Final Sacrifice, the one perfect sacrifice to God to atone for all sins of all who believe in him throughout all time. As such, no further sacrifices are needed. Instead we participate in the great sacrifice to God by eating Jesus' flesh in the form of bread and drink his blood in the form of wine consecrated upon an altar by a priest as part of a ritual (the Mass is a ritual focused upon uniting God with his people through Communion).

Sin is instead wiped clean through the Sacrament of Confession, laying out your sins before a priest acting in the person of Jesus who forgives your sins and gives you a penance to perform (mostly a series of prayers in modern times or for lesser sins, but could involve more elaborate signs such as wearing sackcloth or pilgrimage or, for those with a means, engaging in some project for the good of the Church in the case of more serious sins in Medieval times).

But, yes, as far as rituals go there are various degrees of rituals for warding off the Devil and his minions. The most fundamental is the Sacrament of Baptism which annoints the recipient as a child of God and gives them the gift of God's Spirit dwelling within them. This offers significant protection from the influence of demonic (as they cannot abide God's presence).

Catholics perform infant Baptism (along with all converts not validly Baptised (though if your setting is pre-Protestant that's unlikely to come up unless one of the Eastern Orthodox joins... and if it's pre-1054 there's not even that), but have a second stage of initiation; the Sacrament of Confirmation performed typically around 13-14 years of age (the edge of adulthood by Medieval standards) in which they are sealed with holy oil and recognized by their local bishop as a full member of the Catholic Church.

Beyond those fundamentals, the lowest tier is simply prayers by the laity and things like marking the lintle of your home with the names of Jesus, Mary and Joseph (asking for God and Saints Mary and Joseph; symbolic of perfect domestic life to watch over the home and its occupants).

The next step up would be blessings by a priest and, for those afflicted by demons, ritual excorcism (contrary to some beliefs, the modern Church is very cautious in its use of exorcism... requiring a full investigation to rule out things like drugs or mental illness before resorting to exorcism; the want to solve the sufferer's problem, not just perform prayers for the sake of performance). Many dioceses will have a priest who specializes in exorcism, though if necessary a matter could be elevated to the bishop, who, as a successor to the Apostles has the full authority of Christ to drive out demons (whereas priests are delegated their authority from a bishop).

So, yeah, tons of rituals everywhere. Priests offer ritual Mass daily. They perform the rituals for Confession daily. They perform ritual Baptism on every child born to their congregation. They administer the Sacrament of the Sick upon all who seek it due to suffering serious illness. They witness the Sacrament of Matrimony (the only one not performed by a priest, they just witness the couple's performance of it and offer additional blessings). They perform rituals at Funeral Masses. The bishops perform all of these and oversee the rituals for Confirmation and Holy Orders (annointing deacons and priests) and will generally perform all rituals related to the consecration of a new church building or chapel.

Basically, for devout Catholics, ritual is everywhere. You pray on rising, before meals, before bed. The rosary developed from workers hearing the prayers of monks and devised to beads as a counting mnemonic to follow along with the monks' chanting as they plowed the fields. It's not like there were podcasts to listen to as they worked and prayer occupied the mind while performing monotonous physical labor.

One element to all of the above, particularly as related to exorcism; instances of genuine possession of Christians was exceedingly rare. It was more common among the pagans the missionaries came to and one of the perceived benefits of converting that has been recorded was actually drastically fewer demoniacs running around while our society has seen an upsurge of demonic activity as we've turned away from God.I

If you wish to convey a Medieval autbentic ethos you should run with that concept, that Christian communities are largely safe from demonic forces... the demons have little sway where the Holy Spirit dwells. Instead it is in the borderlands and pagan societies where the demonic runs rampant.

A monster I wrote up recently after coming across some medieval Japanese folklore I'd never heard of on the Hyogo Prefectural History Museum's website and an excellent addition to my ever-expanding notes on medieval (12th to early 15th century) Japan. It is mentioned as part of a story about the origin of an ancient holy site in a Japanese geographical text from 1348.


悪鹿 Ashika
Frequency: Very Rare
No. Appearing: 1
AC: 16 (Ascending, 3 descending)
Move: 50' (or 60')
HD: 7d10
Init: +1
No. Attacks: 2 (or 16), +8 to hit
Damage: 1 (or 8 ) gore 2d10, 1 (or 8 ) bite 2d6
Save:10
Morale:8
Alignment: Chaotic
Size: Large
Ashika are great man-eating stags warped by chaos and found in the depths of mountain forests. They appear as gargantuan deer, around 20' tall, with brightly glowing eyes and moss growing all over their body. These kings of the forest are believed to be embodiments of the forest's wrath born from the chaotic side of nature. They have been reported to attack human settlements along with herds of lesser deer, eating humans, livestock and any crops in the fields in the past. Fortunately, Ashika have only ever rarely been seen and only in the mountainous regions of Chugoku.

Only one Ashika is ever encountered, always leading a herd of chaos-tainted carnivorous deer, 1d8 males and 1d6 females per male including the Ashika. These tainted deer use regular deer stats but with 8 morale and an additional 1d4 bite attack. Females will also fight in these herds. Ashika may have certain mutations: there is a 30% chance the deer will have a total of eight heads (granting more attacks) and another 30% chance it will have eight legs (granting 60' movement speed). If an Ashika has eight heads, it may only attack any one target with 3 heads or less consecutively due to positioning. Ashika are semi-intelligent.