Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

Quote from: BadApple on May 19, 2024, 12:53:04 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

I have had this conversation with my devoted aunt and mother. We're all faithful Catholics.

This perspective isn't anything radical for Catholics. We believe Satan is real and he and his demons prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. A demon is just an angel that broke faith with God and so retain all the abilities natural to angels. They are not (yet) confined to Hell but remain free in the world. We believe in Demonic oppression and possession and that our bishops and priests have been granted authority by God to cast out the fallen angels and perform other signs and wonders as needed to fulfill God's plan.

We declare the reality of supernatural powers at work in the world every time we recite our Creed and say we believe in "all things visible and invisible." We believe that there is a spiritual war going on in the invisible world for the souls of Men.

We call upon God because we can be sure of His intentions (because He entered the world, taught us, and then died as payment for our transgressions against Him because of His love for His creations) and so can be sure that calling upon Him for aid is safe for us spiritually and can even cast out any and all evil spirits.

We do NOT know for certain the intention of any other spirit and that many seek to lead us into eternal damnation, which is why interacting with them, except by trained experts (i.e. exorcists), is forbidden and even apparitions claiming to be angels or saints are studied for years before they're either declared invalid or "worthy of belief" (note - not REQUIRED for belief).

As relates to the subject at hand, this isn't that far off from the understanding of Medieval Catholics about "magic." There isn't a hard divide between "natural" and "supernatural" because all of it was created by God. Smiths knew secrets (arcane and occult both essentially mean little known/secret) they wove into the items they created; the sword of a master smith had properties beyond what was understood to be natural at the time.

What mattered at the time (and is still the basis for Catholic understanding of Charisms and other spiritual gifts) is using the gifts given by God for the good and to avoid instances of sin which hostile spirits (that can disguise themselves as benign ones) will seek to lead us into, and we leave ourselves particularly open to that when we deliberately call upon those other spirits.

It may seem shocking to the Protestants, but to devout Catholics the Medieval mindset on the supernatural and spirits; miracles and magic; isn't all that alien to us.

Chris

Well said.

I started a Sunday school lesson today for my adult class that covers that exactly. I' Baptist, so some of our beliefs may be a little different, but the core of it is the same.

We may not see or understand 'the spiritual world/war' but it is there and we are dead center of it.

Now place that back in time 500+ years, with less knowledge in the science side of the house, and significantly more belief in spirit side, plus, as CS Lewis points out 'the fact that the under command of the fallen angels allowed mages to actively be made' and you have a view that yes priest cause miracles from God with their prayers, village wise men/women know the tricks to chase off ilf sickness for your cow (and other special little secrets some form the good side, some may be from the bad side so be careful) and some fall to the fallen side even if at first the spirit seems good, but it leads those that follow it astray.

I have mentioned before that in some stories Oni possess the magical art of creating new life out of mixed human remains. A 13th century Japanese text expands on this idea giving a process which could be learned from the Oni (but still requires their cooperation):

Take assorted human remains and organize them into a complete human form or at least a complete skeleton. Paint the bones with arsenic, then sprinkle crumbled hebiichigo over them, then sprinkle leaves of chickweed over them. Tie the bones together with threads and vines and wash them many times with water. Rub upon the skull, in the region from which hair grows, ash from burnt leaves of saikai (saikachi) and Hibiscus. Keep the body protected from the wind and rain and wait for a period of fourteen days or more. Before beginning the next part of the operation the caster must have fasted and remained pure for seven days. Burn musk and milk in veneration of the Oni and miscellaneous daemons before performing the Secret Rite of Soul Recalling (a multi-purpose necromantic ritual jealously guarded by certain Tendai, Shingon, and Onmyo lineages).

If all goes well the caster will have created a perfect simulacra of a human being with unique features inherited from the remains used. If all doesn't go well the ritual may fail or create a sickly person trapped in a vegetative state though they may be able to moan or make meaningless utterances. It should be noted that humans created with this spell, while intelligent, have no soul and are incredibly fragile. The creature must be treated gently and taken good care of lest they break and return to their constituent elements; however, if 100 days pass without incident ensoulment will occur and they shall be true humans.

It is worth noting that humans performing this art can gain the notice of gods or spirits of the underworld who will be angered by this behavior. It is possible that one may get off with a warning (perhaps in a dream) on a first offense, but a curse (likely a deadly one) is likely. Also worth noting is that there are tales of Oni using this practice in a partial form to restore severed limbs or other body parts. For example, an Oni tears off the arms of a monk and shortly thereafter another Oni to whom the monk once showed compassion passes by. This Oni creates and attaches new arms for the monk created from the remains of the dead.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 08:33:57 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 10:21:45 PMThe answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

Complicating this is the fact that modern Wiccans are rather prone to making false and rather outlandish claims about witches and witchcraft in the Middle Ages.  One of them is buried in the phrase modern Wiccans.  This implies that there was such a thing as ancient Wiccans.  This fits in with the claims made by some Wiccans that Wicca is the survival of some Pre-Christian European tradition.  This is simply false.  All Wiccans are modern Wiccans.  Wicca is a modern practice invented in the 1950s by a guy named Gerald Gardner aka Scire.  The ancient coven that supposedly inducted him was pure fabrication.  He made it all up.  There are some rather outlandish claims about the persecution of witches by the Church in the Middle Ages too.  People talk about "The Burning Times" when millions of witches were supposedly burned by the Catholic Church.  Supposedly, so many witches were burned that the smoke blackened the sky.  This claim is, of course, absurd.  Some Wiccan authors, like Scott Cunningham, are honest about the origins of Wicca while others still promote these falsehoods. 

Then again, there are people who still promote Margaret Murray's work as if it had any validity at all.

As demonstrated by European fairy-tales, witches were originally not conceived to be human at all, but cannibalistic monsters/demons who looked like elderly women. "Witch" and "hag" were thus synonymous.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

Quote from: WERDNA on May 20, 2024, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

I think 6, yes. Not the one that just came out, the next one.

Going to repost this as not everyone is going to look at the S&C review thread but this info is useful being the origins of Magic items in Sword & Caravan:

Armband vs. Poison: "The 'Armband vs poison' is from a Persian bazuband talisman." -RPGPundit
Cloud Shoes: Journey to the West. I think Sun Wukong had them.
Coin Talisman vs. Missiles: Chinese. Possibly made in the likeness of the Luobao Jingqian.
Eye Amulet: Likely the Turco-Middle Eastern Nazar, but apotropaic amulets depicting eyes have been around since the Bronze Age.
Hiding Mask: Clearly of Chinese origin, but from what story?
Demon Glass: Could be the Zhaoyao Jing/Demon Revealing Mirror. Same powers but the latter is a mirror.
Devouring Jug:
Emerald Sword: Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegār of Solomon?
Blood Dagger:
Magic Leopard-Skin Cape: Babr-e Bayan, a part of the armor of the Persian Hero Rostam, it protected against fire, water, and weaponry.
Garuda Feathers: Sounds Indian at first, but the power is identical to the Persian Feathers of Simurgh.
Jar of Birds:
Horned Helmet: Helmet of Rostam made from the skull of Div-e Sepid, Persian?
Leopard Skin Bag: Journey to the West, Baopi Nang of Nezha
Magic Lantern:
Magic Pearl: Presumably one of the 24 Ocean Calming Pearls from
Investiture of the Gods
Trapping Jar: Likely Chinese, items like this are seen frequently in media
Wind Fan: As above. There is one in Journey to the West as well.
Two-Sided Mirror of Life & Death: The Yin-Yang Mirror of Kunlun.
Flaming Spear: Nezha's Fire-Tipped Spear?
Flying Mace:
Fire Resistant Coat:
Three-Pointed Spear: May well be the Three-pointed double-edged lance of Erlang Shen
Shield-Piercing Spear: Appears in a Chinese fable along with an unpierceable shield.
Lightning Mace: Based on the mace of the Zoroastrian weather spirit Tishtrya?
Long-Firing Bow:
Stone Bell:
Wooden Sword: , it's not a Peach Wood Sword is it?
Yellow Sword:
Leather Standard: Likely Persia. If so this is a banner made from the leather apron of the blacksmith-turned-rebel-hero Kaveh who fought the tyrant Zahak. Of course, it may not be this exact banner but any of the Derafsh Kaviani banners of leather made in imitation of it in Persian dynasties down to the Sassanids (although theirs was allegedly destroyed by Caliph Umar). The banner is decorated with gems in a sort of lotus pattern.

Edit: I guess triple question marks is an emoticon code. Neat.

Edit II: Just an item found in my research I thought was neat:
Linglong Baota (Exquisite Pagoda): A pagoda, only several inches tall when not in use, which can be used to imprison all manner of demons, ghosts, and spirits within.

I'm going to be honest in saying that just now I don't remember where some of the ones you didn't identify came from, but they were all from different sources on or adjacent to the Silk Road (so all the actual silk road cultures: Arabic, Persian, Turkik, Mongol, Chinese, Tibetan, Afghan and Indian).

The "Armband vs poison" is from a Persian bazuband talisman.

Learned about a couple Arabic grimoires of the medieval period recently. Hard to say what's in them exactly since I don't know Arabic but allegedly Jinn conjuration and related talismans like what Pundit is working on for Pundit Files are among the spells. Would probably be cool to drop in an S&C campaign as a method for characters to learn such arts.

The books:
al-Shamil fi al-bahr al-kamil by al-Tabasi (d. 1089)
Kitab al-Shamil wa Bahr al-Kamil by al-Sakkaki (d. 1229)

Of course, Shams al-Ma'arif by al-Buni (d. 1225) is also rather notable; I just happened to know of it already.

There is also one Kitab al-talasim al-akbar attributed to Apollonius. I believe the magic Apollonius lantern from L&D is mentioned in this text.

There is apparently a mace belonging to the Zoroastrian spirit Tishtrya by which he allegedly conjured storms (I have found no scholarly sources for this info yet); this could be the origin of the lightning mace as Tishtrya is referenced in the Shahnameh which seems a major source of Pundit's magic items.

Also I ran across one example of myth of a far-flying mace: an artifact of the gods of ancient Sumer called Sharur which could also talk (very AD&D that); despite the fact the region is more-or-less right it seems a bit archaic for Pundit to have used in S&C set around 1200AD but who knows.

Quote from: WERDNA on August 22, 2024, 11:20:28 PMThere is apparently a mace belonging to the Zoroastrian spirit Tishtrya by which he allegedly conjured storms (I have found no scholarly sources for this info yet); this could be the origin of the lightning mace as Tishtrya is referenced in the Shahnameh which seems a major source of Pundit's magic items.

Also I ran across one example of myth of a far-flying mace: an artifact of the gods of ancient Sumer called Sharur which could also talk (very AD&D that); despite the fact the region is more-or-less right it seems a bit archaic for Pundit to have used in S&C set around 1200AD but who knows.

I did borrow some things from more ancient myths, because of course these aren't items that are meant to reflect the contemporary magic of the period, they are legendary items that will be found in ancient places. And ancient Persian, Indian, and other pre-Islamic myths continued to be very relevant in those societies in a similar way to how Greco-Roman myths kept being preserved long after their existence as faiths were over.

I feel confident that I'm right about the mace of Tishtrya then. Less so about Sharur being the flying mace since it's also intelligent but maybe you genericized it intentionally for the loot table or pulled it from a source that only mentioned it in passing. Idk

I kinda wish S&C had the background on magic items like L&D and BoF does now.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 21, 2024, 12:54:32 PM

Quote from: WERDNA on May 20, 2024, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?

I think 6, yes. Not the one that just came out, the next one.

I finally purchased the magazine and read the article. I found it a good take on the creatures; however, I have a couple questions:

1. The article states these spirits to have become what they are 2500 or so years before the setting's timeline, but the figures in their origin stories are mostly from the time of the Yellow Emperor or early Xia dynasty which would be closer to 2500 BC than 2500 years before 1200AD.

2. From where does the description of the Qionqi come from? I am not familiar with the serpent-bodied, copper man-headed variant. I do know of the winged tiger and quilled bovine versions which I believe come from the Shanhaijing (the former being the most common in modern media).