Slightly belated because of the downtime last week, here's the fourth in the series of threads about RPG mechanics.

Since the inception of d&d there have been classes and there have been monsters. Sometimes, a monster got lucky and had a mix of the two. I remember being petrified of a group of Orcs tracking us after we had stolen one of their tribe's artifacts way back when we played ad&d. Why was i terrified? Becuase these weren't just Orcs. We had seen one of them back stab our Cleric in the fight at their camp. Huh? Backstab? Who he? How that? It was a new concept for us and a chilling one. Monsters that could have the same kind of abilities as you got as a PC. What next, hill giant fighters? Oh yes...

Once you get used to a system and the things it can throw at you, as well as the sundry monsters and their attacks etc. Things can get a bit...samey. You know that at a certain level, why bother worrying about those orcs? I'll just fireball the whole lot of them and we'll be on our way. They have no special attacks, we're laughing. Critters that already have special attacks are a bit different and unlike the humanoid races are generally encountered less frequently and so can still be surprising in their abilities, even to an experienced player. Yet still, you can get to the point where even this becomes more an excersise in meta-gaming than genuine surprise at the table. Still, we sorted those orcs out after a tense couple of sessions and were happy. Surprised, but happy. This helped to keep things fresh and keep the jaded feeling away.

The advent of d&d 3rd and later 3.5 hard-wired PC classes into the humanoid races in the MM. They were expected to take classes. Not only does this mean that there is a greater variance in character levels where certain humanoids can still pose a risk, but it kept the surprise factor going. Shit, a 10th level kobold Sorceror! Run! However, the very fact that it's presumed that the humanoid races have the wherewithall to take class levels pretty much removes the surprise factor. Now, instead of it being a surprise (like in ad&d), you go into the fight half expecting it. Indeed, it's part and parcel of the game now. Humanoid enemies are PCs (or NPCs) with funny faces and habits. Fine and dandy, but it sort of removes the oh shit factor in some cases. Non humanoid enemies can take classes too, and one of the most fearsome to my mind is the thought of classed aboleths, *shudder*.

This is why i prefer templates. I want to be able to apply something to any monster in any book that changes it into something else, either physically, mentally, or ability wise. With the right amount of templates and covering enough bases, no encounter with the same monster or humanoid species need ever be the same. Surprise after surprise after surprise. My kind of gaming.

Typically, a template is something that 'overlays' a monsters stat block. It notes any changes to the base creatures hit die, AC, movement, ability scores etc and details any special abilities it gets for having that template. It also has a challenge rating modifier that is meant to reflect how the template alters the challenge of the base creature. Great!

That's why i'm offering up templates this week for discussion. I think that they are far more flexible than simply giving class levels to monsters. In fact, i wish that there were far more templates. How about emotional templates? physical templates? outlook templates? religious templates? A 'strongman' template might be as easy as adding 4 to the base creatures strength and doubling his lifting capabilities. A 'greedy' template might mean that the base creatures gains advantages in picking pockets or something (as his greed is so fierce that he trains especially). A 'stunted' template might give a negative CR rating and enable parties to tackle high level risks at lower levels. The dwarf titan could be a great adventure idea.

(Note: I don't have the Book of Templates, but would dearly love to. So if some of the ideas above match what's in that book, apologies).

So, do you think that templates are a better method of keeping variety than just using class levels? Are they too fiddly? Should a bigger variety be available like those i outlined above? Should PCs have access to them as they do prestige classes? Any other comments?

is there a book of templates?

As a player of Paizo´s "Age of Templates" and "Savage Templates" encounter chains, I must say: I dig them.

As a player of a 23rd Level Wee Jas Cleric: I love adding the Zombie, Vampire, Ghost or Skeleton Template to monsters and others.

As a DM: I think they are fiddly to implement, especially the omnipresent Celestial, Dire and Fiendish templates.

Templates are not kind to the beginner, but are tremendously rewarding for the advanced player. They provide the bare rudiments of the monster-building system that D&D 3.x otherwise lacks.

I love templates.  I'd love them even more with some software support that templated beasties for me.

And I agree that there needs to be more kinds of template.  I want an "Evil Overlord" template and a "Simpering Coward" template and a "Sadistic Bastard" template.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineTemplates are not kind to the beginner, but are tremendously rewarding for the advanced player. They provide the bare rudiments of the monster-building system that D&D 3.x otherwise lacks.

Yeah. I sometimes wonder whether it would be possible (or desirable) to actually make templates the building blocks of the game. Period. Even for player characters. You have a base 'profile', be that human, orc, basilisk, whatever. You then have a nice list of templates that you apply to this base.

Say, i want a character that is cool in a fight, but can sneak around a bit. I 'buy' the warrior template and choose the Stealthy template. I then apply these to my base character to gain my starting stats, abilities etc. Then, any abilities i gain by advancing levels are all there in the templates i bought.

A bit out of the box there, but that would certainly de-construct the system and make it clear how it is built. :raise:

Quote from: beeberis there a book of templates?

Waitaiminnit, weren't you just saying how you weren't a fan of class/level based games? I have half a mind to go back to your thread and pimp Spycraft 2.0!

Anyway, for D&D/D20, there are a variety of products with templates, but there are two major products that have many of these that are generally considered to be very good.

One of them is named, unsurprisingly, Book of Templates (more preciesely, Book of Templates 3.5, Deluxe Edition.) There was a print version from Goodman Games, but you can get the PDF by the designers, Silverthorne, on various PDF sites.

Then there's Advanced Bestiary, by Green Ronin.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWaitaiminnit, weren't you just saying how you weren't a fan of class/level based games? I have half a mind to go back to your thread and pimp Spycraft 2.0!

pimp away, sir!    

just because i'm not a fan doesn't mean i wish to remain totally ignorant of such things.  

i never saw such a book at my local borders, that's all.  then again, i've never seen any goodman games products there either, so there ya go

I do not like templates and monster class levels at all. Too much work for me as a DM. I like variety in monsters, but I can't be bothered to go through the hassle of using strict templates/classes. I get annoyed at having to add templates to base monsters, I'd rather have the stats already there for me to look at quickly. It mostly boils down to convenience and prep time.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThen there's Advanced Bestiary, by Green Ronin.

Awesome product, as is their Bastards & Bloodlines (book of half-breeds).

As for the complexity of templates, I'd say it's still easier to increase the HD, change the size _and_ add a template to a monsters than it is to create a decent high-level NPC. Yes, doing it on the fly might be a bit too much work, but it's rather easy prep work. I've got a basic stat block template, filling in and modifying is rather easy. Someday I'll write a decent program to automate that...

Also, templates are great for themes. Take several basic monsters and give 'em the same template. Instant harem of fire creatures.

Quote from: GoOrangeI do not like templates and monster class levels at all. Too much work for me as a DM. I like variety in monsters, but I can't be bothered to go through the hassle of using strict templates/classes. I get annoyed at having to add templates to base monsters, I'd rather have the stats already there for me to look at quickly. It mostly boils down to convenience and prep time.

Most templates provide an example creature statted out. If you don't like that example creature, I guess you do have to do the work yourself. Or just ask someone online if they've seen a particular creature with a particular template, and more often than not someone will stat one up for ya.

Templates (and class levels) are very cool ways to customize creatures to the individual DM's taste. I think templates are one of the best things to happen to D&D with the advent of 3e. The only things I think should've had a template right from the start and didn't were "dire" animals. Happily, Necromancer Games filled the gap with a dire template in Tome of Horrors.

My problem with templates and monster class levels is their superfluous use. While the example of One Horse Town is a great example of spicing up the game, many times, it is just a phenomenon of lazy design by people who believe that using a lot of mechanically altered foes is clever. Unfortunately, this is not the case, for three reasons:
1) Quite often, the players will never know the difference except to remark that this or that critter was harder than usual; all the work going into the monster is for empty aesthetics gain... for the designer and the DM, while the stat block becomes more complicated and harder to understand/use. This, I believe, is one of the gravest sins 3.* commits against "good game design" - much ado about nothing.
2) If templated monsters are used left and right, as it is often the case (the official WotC modules, but also Goodman's DCCs are guilty of this), they are no longer special. The surprise of "wow, orc thieves! :eek: Or are they assassins? :eek: :eek:" gets lost if the first monsters in the module are orc warriors, followed by an orc cleric with his fiendish dire-wolf companion, followed by half-fiend orc barbarians, etc.
3) And as a third cautionary note, there is something to be said for a bit of predictability. If the PCs can expect to estimate the strength of their opposition most of the time, it gives more depth to strategic play, and makes surprises more poignant.

So, I guess, as with prestige classes, I am not opposed to the general concept, but the specific implementation in 3.* products is one I can not get behind.

Quote from: Melan2) If templated monsters are used left and right, as it is often the case (the official WotC modules, but also Goodman's DCCs are guilty of this), they are no longer special. The surprise of "wow, orc thieves! :eek: Or are they assassins? :eek: :eek:" gets lost if the first monsters in the module are orc warriors, followed by an orc cleric with his fiendish dire-wolf companion, followed by half-fiend orc barbarians, etc.

Why should professional, hard-working orcs be any special? You, sir, are obviously a racist!

normal orcs may gain classes, sure.  but half-fiends?  bah!  cannon fodder to the front!  

seriously tho, the half-fiend template sure gets used a lot, in a fair bit of the adventures & literature i've seen.  who's in charge of policing all those nympho outsiders?  more like in-&-outsiders

I agree with Melan's analysis, and find class levels for monsters particularly irksome. I far prefer templates that players can appreciate on both an aesthetic and mechanical level. I find an Orcisch Fighter/Assassin fairly pedestrian. A clockwork Orc on the other hand... that's the kind of thing that gets my imagination fizzing.