Curiously enough, yesterday I came across these rules for using HARP/RM critical hits for C&C:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/beatem.pdf

Quote from: CalithenaAre the crit charts progressive? How many are there?

Could you map them on to 3e like so:

x2....chart A critical
x3...chart B critical
x4....chart C critical

or something like that?

I wouldn't mind incorporating some descriptive crit scheme into 3e. I've sometimes used Hackmaster for this, with multipliers tied into die size IIRC. I wonder where I posted those mechanics on the internet...

There are five grades of crit, A to E (you can get hit with larger crits than that, but an F crit for example, is really an A and an E).

To give you an idea of deadliness, you can only die outright from an A crit on a roll of 100. B, i think a roll of 66 and 95-100, C 90-100, D 85-100 and E 80-100. Although cumulative effects or being stunned for ever tends to result in the same thing sometimes. There is some deviation amongst the crits, but that is not far from the norm.

What you'd have to watch in converting them to d&d is that bleeding and stun can be ported across, but the other big crit effect is minus to activity. In RM, this is a penalty to all of you dice rolls and can range anywhere from -5 to -90! That could be tricky to port across. Perhaps every -10 in RM would equal a -1 penalty in d&d.

Statistically every -5 on d100 is a -1 on d20. The systems were designed differently though, so a straight conversion probably wouldn't do so well. A -5 to a 1st level RM fighter is nowhere near as painful as a -1 is to a first level D&D fighter. -10 = -1 is probably better.

The big problem IMO is porting across the healing. The crits that apply a penalty do so because of various reasons: cut tendons, shattered bones, gouged out eyes, etc. Organ damage, bones, muscles and tendons, etc. all have seperate spell lists for healing them.

While you could simply say that each particular level of crit can be cured by Cure Light, Moderate, Serious, etc. spells that doesn't fully grab the feel of danger in Rolemaster combat.

You can add extra spells or require a level of cure spell appropriate to the severity, that's all old & easy mods.

What it seems to me is that if you were going to do this you almost have to make that annoying second roll to confirm the crit in D&D the same roll that determines the actual crit inflicted.

So e.g.: roll to hit "19, that's a threat!"

"Back it up!"

"Rolled a 16. Got a +5 BaB, +3 from strength, +2 longsword, +1 weapon focus, that's a total of 27."

"He was AC 14, so that's a level 13 critical...." and that has a direct effect on the appropriate table. You could either have separate tables for different multipliers or (better, probably) have the high-crit power weapons boost you by an extra 5 points on the roll assuming you make it.

Maybe I'll bust this out next time I want to think about a crit system for 3e.

Hackmaster is slow but it actually works really well - the injuries it generates are lots of fun.

I've used the RM crits in D&D on occasion by introducing an extra die roll to determine severity.  I think it went like this:

1-6) A
7-11) B
12-16) C
17-19) D
20) E

Extra die rolls work well, and only slow the game down if you don't roll it alongside your confirmation roll. For instance, if you get a 20 on your first attack roll, when you roll your confirmation roll you toss a d20 to confirm and a d12 to find the severity if you successfully confirm.

Hackmaster's crit tables are GM-Only so I haven't read them, but they seemed to work pretty well. Crits in HM happen a lot less frequently than the ones in D&D or RM do, so the fact that you're cross referencing a chart and then rolling d10,000 for them doesn't slow things down anywhere near as much as it sounds like it would.

Another Rolemaster thread!  Yah! :haw:

Quote from: One Horse TownDo your experiences with RM combat differ from mine?

Not really, I think.  I do remember loving combat in MERP and RM a lot.  Still do.  And we mustn't forget the spell criticals!

E.g. from the 'heat critical chart':
"Head becomes a charred stump.  Sadly, foe dies instantly due to this unacceptable condition."

Quote from: One Horse TownWould you make any changes to the combat and critical system and what would they be? Would it quicken things up, take a bit of housekeeping away, or make it less deadly?

MERP had a simplified version of Arms Law.  Instead of different charts for each weapon, it broke them down into types (1-handed edged, etc.) with modifiers depending on the particular weapon.  Likewise the critical charts didn't have different columns for A, B, C, D, E criticals; instead, there was one column, and an A critical was -20, B was -10, etc.  The same system is used in Rolemaster Express (a 'basic' version of Rolemaster distilled from Rolemaster 2e/Classic), in case people are curious about it.

Back in the day, I used the MERP combat and critical charts for NPCs and monsters as GM, while my players used the full blown Arms Law charts.  It made things manageable.
:cool:

Quote from: SettembriniI only have played HARP, but when I played HARP, I thought:
"Why not go the full route, and play Harnmaster?"
...

I don't know anything about Harnmaster, but HARP's critical charts are a 'light' version of the full blown Rolemaster ones.  (Also, Rolemaster predates Harnmaster by many years -- isn't Harnmaster partially based on Rolemaster?)

Well, Rolemaster is not that original.
There´s nothing much original since RQ in that regard.

I think I will never get into RM, because I am into HM, and they seem to be similiar enough.
I do use War Law, though, and think it´s a pretty fine product.

Most depressing thing about RM criticals - the stun gun table, a huge array of 0s, basically.

Most amusing thing - the Tiny Creatures attack table which I seem to remember gives a tiny creature such as a cat or bunny a 1/10000 chance of ripping anyone's throat out.

I played MERP quite a few times, but it just ended being a rather neat tactical combat simulation rather than anything to do with the background. Enjoyed it though.

If you take the criticals seriously, any magic user is going to be dead after about six months, even without combat. I imagine there must be special hospital wings arranged by critical.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, Rolemaster is not that original.
There´s nothing much original since RQ in that regard.
...

:confused:
Isn't the whole subject of this thread about what is original about Rolemaster, viz. it's descriptive critical system?  Why is that not original?

Runequest -- as much as I like and admire the system -- did not have this.

Also, one might think that RM was somewhat original for combining a class-based system (its professions) with a central role for skills (including combat abilities, magic abilities, etc.).  I'm not aware of any FRPG that did this before RM.

QuoteAlso, one might think that RM was somewhat original for combining a class-based system (its professions) with a central role for skills (including combat abilities, magic abilities, etc.). I'm not aware of any FRPG that did this before RM.

Point taken.

I want to point out that Arms Law was originally designed to replace AD&D (1st) combat system. The same for spell law. Then it finally evolved into it's own game.

Quote from: James McMurrayExtra die rolls work well, and only slow the game down if you don't roll it alongside your confirmation roll. For instance, if you get a 20 on your first attack roll, when you roll your confirmation roll you toss a d20 to confirm and a d12 to find the severity if you successfully confirm.

Hackmaster's crit tables are GM-Only so I haven't read them, but they seemed to work pretty well. Crits in HM happen a lot less frequently than the ones in D&D or RM do, so the fact that you're cross referencing a chart and then rolling d10,000 for them doesn't slow things down anywhere near as much as it sounds like it would.

Ever the optimist, James.

The extra die toss I suppose isn't any more onerous than subtracting, so point taken there. It seems sort of klugey in some ways though. If there are ANY modifiers on that second die, though, it seems like subtracting starts to be better.

You could start doing a Critical Die Pool: 1d12 for x2 multiplier, 2d12 for x3, and so on, take high roll in all cases. But frankly the 'grain' on a d12 critical chart isn't quite enough for me to be worth going to descriptive crits over extra damage.

I used HM crit tables fairly extensively in 3e for about six months. I stopped not because they weren't fun but because I felt they slowed things down too much and the players really disliked me snickering behind the screen while I cross-referenced numbers. It's one thing to pull out the crit die, dramatically roll, and deliver the result; when we cross-indexed the severity roll with the d10000 and the squinting at those tiny letters it wound up being a little tedious for my tastes. Others may be more patient and/or better at making this sort of thing suspenseful. I DID keep using HM crits in my on-line game until it ended and would do so again if I ever played more PBeM.

I think the main reason that Rolemaster (also known as Chartmaster and Rollmaster) isn't very popular any more is because most people find the crit tables tedious after a while.  A given roll has different crits depending on the weapon.  Then you might have to roll on 2-3 other charts and look up other results.  You start to feel more like a combat actuarian than a roleplayer.

Despite the high detail, it doesn't add that much to realism in the end and some of the results come out wonky without much sense.  

I really don't think this is a mechanic to emulate.  I think if a totally new game came out with as much chart lookup as RM crits, it would be an almost guaranteed bomb.