AS so

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2025, 01:47:40 PM

Quote from: Horace on February 27, 2025, 11:22:03 AMThe simplicity is what made 2014 5E great. Every class and subclass was roughly equal in power, so a new player could make a character without fear of being a gimp. They didn't have to research "builds" in order to be useful. Since then, though, 5E has only added more feats, spells, classes, and subclasses -- way more than was ever needed -- to the point that the options are overwhelming once again. System mastery is almost as much of a thing as it was in 3E, thanks to power-creep and broken multiclass combinations. It's enough to ruin the game, in my opinion.

Even with only the core rules, 5E isn't simplicity IMO. It's still complicated, so I found it a little off-putting to hear Mearls praise himself about how streamlined the 2014 rules he worked on were. If one wants a simple D&D-like game, BECMI or one of its many offshoots is a better bet.

I agree that the 5E option books made it worse, and I didn't like them - but every edition of D&D has added more options that eventually became overwhelming if you allow them all. In the 1E days, I avoided _Unearthed Arcana_ options like Cavalier and Barbarian because they showed clear power-creep. 2E had a huge number of kits in all the "Complete <X>" books along with Skills & Powers. 3E and 3.5E likewise added tons of options.

I've enjoyed 5E - but I generally only allowed options from the core books, and I never ran above level 9.

As someone else said, it's very streamlined compared to 3e and 4e. There are much fewer numbers to keep track of, the combat and environmental rules are simpler, feats are much chunkier and there are much fewer of them, and so on.

Quote from: Spobo on Today at 09:41:28 AMAs someone else said, it's very streamlined compared to 3e and 4e. There are much fewer numbers to keep track of, the combat and environmental rules are simpler, feats are much chunkier and there are much fewer of them, and so on.

Strangely enough, I think 5e 2014 went too far in some ways (feats bloat needed to reigned in... but not removed completely as the baseline with no starting feat at all even if you are using them) whereas other things were only half-simplified (adding a global proficiency bonus instead of individual skill ranks was nice but do we really need 18 different skills so badly skewed to some attributes?).

Quote from: RNGm on Today at 09:47:01 AM

Quote from: Spobo on Today at 09:41:28 AMAs someone else said, it's very streamlined compared to 3e and 4e. There are much fewer numbers to keep track of, the combat and environmental rules are simpler, feats are much chunkier and there are much fewer of them, and so on.

Strangely enough, I think 5e 2014 went too far in some ways (feats bloat needed to reigned in... but not removed completely as the baseline with no starting feat at all even if you are using them) whereas other things were only half-simplified (adding a global proficiency bonus instead of individual skill ranks was nice but do we really need 18 different skills so badly skewed to some attributes?).

The biggest loss for me was that, barring multiclassing (which not everyone allows), just about every meaningful choice for your progression was locked in by level 3.

If you're a monk you will pick up Stunning Fist at level 5. You will get the feature determined by the subclass you picked at level three when you reach level 6, etc. If your table is doing array or point buy, you're probably not even getting a feat choice until level 12 unless you're happy with AC 15 and falling behind on to-hit and damage bonuses.

Maybe it's that I've played a lot more M&M, Champions, WoD, and 4E, but that locked-in progression in 5e is so uninspiring. You're just waiting out levels until the traits you want come online and everyone else with the same class/subclass and level gets the exact same thing.

By your third 5e campaign you can see the underlying samey-ness of everything. It's why I'm going to be taking over the 5e slot for the local group as soon as the current campaign wraps to run M&M and try to slowly break them of their 5e habit (M&M is close enough mechanically that it shouldn't be too jarring for the ones whose only gaming reference is 5e and comic book heroes are a familiar enough genre to not require extensive explanations of its tropes). That would be samey too if we continued it, but hopefully I can push for WEG or Savage Worlds Star Wars (Old Republic era) after that.

Quote from: Zalman on February 26, 2025, 11:44:41 AMI watched the video. Along with a few other of his recent appearances. It's hard to shake the feeling that Mearls is on some sort of half apology tour half shill-my-game tour, as if he was never on board with the direction of 5e all along.

Also, "I find your lack of avatar disturbing" (Vader voice).

Exactly. He is trying to curry favor with the playerbase he rejected by backpedalling and chirping new buzzwords.

Remember kids. It is only wrong when someone else does it.