Quote from: Dimitrios;629447The cleric was always sort of an odd man out because it's an archetype that doesn't really exist anywhere outside of D&D.

And that's fine.

It's okay for D&D to have things that scream 'I'm D&D, motherfuckers!' in it.

Quote from: Mistwell;629651Blah blah blah

OD&D

" It is relative- ly simple to set up a fantasy campaign, and better still, it will cost almost nothing. In fact you will not even need miniature figures,"

"RECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT: DungeonsandDragons(youhaveit!)
Outdoor Survival (available from your hobby dealer or directly from Avalon Hill 2Company,4517HarfordRoad,BaltimoreMD214)
Dice — the following different kinds of dice are available from TSR 1 pair 4-sided dice 1 pair 20-sided dice
1 pair 8-sided dice 1 pair 12-sided dice
4to20pairs6-sidedice
Chainmail miniature rules, latest edition (available from your hobby dealer or directlyfromTSRHobies,POB756,LakeGeneva,Wi.53147)
1 3-Ring Notebook (referee and each player) Graph Paper (6 lines per inch is best)
ShetProtectors(heaviestposible)
3-RingLinedPaper
DraftingEquipmentandColoredPencils
Scratch Paper and Pencils Imagination
1PatientRefere
Players"

Where does Basic talk about minis?

Oh yeah, page 61.

You know... in the back, mentioned as an option.

*sigh*

In AD&D?

The introduction, as an option, after which they aren't mentioned again.

Miniatures were ALWAYS presented as optional in TSR D&D. The presumption was that you would not use them, they are never called out as required equipment.

This is a fact.

Yes, people have been using minis forever and yes nearly every version says that they can be cool to use and provides a few guidelines. Absolutely.

3e changed this up a little bit in that while it still presented them as optional it was presumed that you would use them (especially 3.5)

4e of course doesn't every acknowledge that you can play without them, they are presented as required.

A few paragraphs pulled form introductions and afterwards about how minis can be cool to use does not prove what you think it does.

Quote from: Ladybird;629426

Quote from: Piestrio;629330I know it's passe nowadays but I LIKE D&D. I like all the little bits that make it different and unique, all the little bits that it's so fashionable to hate on; vancian casting, armor making you harder to hit, forever increasing hit points, classes, levels, arcane/divine magic, clerical healing, etc....

Surely that's one of the strengths of a class-based, highly modular, game system.

Like clerics as they are? Great, play one. Want a healing class that works in a different way? Okay, design and play one of those instead (And we'll assume, for the sake of argument, that you don't simply want to play "Cleric +1", because how boring is that as a design). Everybody can potentially get to play the type of class they want, without impinging on anyone else's choice of class.

As far as hit points go, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign in some respects anticipated games such as RuneQuest, while Dave Hargrave's Arduin campaign was in some ways like 4E. There were also differences from Gary Gygax's Greyhawk campaign in treatments of magic, experience points, and other matters.

Not D&D, eh? You might as well say variable damage by weapon, thieves, rangers, illusionists, etc., are not D&D! Heck, the AD&D 'standard' system of rolling to hit was the Alternate Combat System in the original set.

Lighten up, Piestrio. Back in the 1970s-80s, when a variety of approaches flourished, so did the game.

Quote from: Piestrio;629659OD&D

" It is relative- ly simple to set up a fantasy campaign, and better still, it will cost almost nothing. In fact you will not even need miniature figures,"

"RECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT: DungeonsandDragons(youhaveit!)
Outdoor Survival (available from your hobby dealer or directly from Avalon Hill 2Company,4517HarfordRoad,BaltimoreMD214)
Dice — the following different kinds of dice are available from TSR 1 pair 4-sided dice 1 pair 20-sided dice
1 pair 8-sided dice 1 pair 12-sided dice
4to20pairs6-sidedice
Chainmail miniature rules, latest edition (available from your hobby dealer or directlyfromTSRHobies,POB756,LakeGeneva,Wi.53147)
1 3-Ring Notebook (referee and each player) Graph Paper (6 lines per inch is best)
ShetProtectors(heaviestposible)
3-RingLinedPaper
DraftingEquipmentandColoredPencils
Scratch Paper and Pencils Imagination
1PatientRefere
Players"

Where does Basic talk about minis?

Oh yeah, page 61.

You know... in the back.

*sigh*

First, for OD&D, you don't need miniatures, but they recommend using something to represent the characters in place of miniatures if you happen to not be using them, and those rules are found in Chainmail, which is required for OD&D.  I never said miniatures were required, I said they were uses more often than not (or something to replace them, like dice, or cheetos, or chits, or whatever), and are found in the rules up until 2e, which de-emphasized them (and then 3e re-emphasized them).  The argument here is not "miniatures" it's "representing combat in a visual way, using miniatures or something else, so people can see things like position, range and movement".

As for Basic, you know, you could read the quote I posted, and see it's on many pages.  Like 19 (not in the back) and 26 (not in the back) in addition to 61.  I'd actually say page 26 is the more direct "you should use miniatures, or something to represent them" rule, more than page 61.  And I am not sure why "in the back" is somehow a negative thing.  Is there some unwritten rule that rules mentioned towards the back of the book are not important, and what's the unwritten rule on unwritten rule importance?

Here, I will re-post it:

QuoteMINIATURE FIGURES: D&D adventures are more interesting to play when figures are used. Metal miniatures (about 15 to 25 millimeters high) are often used, for they can be easily painted to look like real dungeon adventurers. Many excellent figures are designed specially for fantasy role playing games. These are available from TSR or from local hobby stores. If metal miniatures cost more than the players want to spend, many companies make inexpensive packs of plastic figures. These are not specifically made for fantasy role playing, but can easily be adapted for it. Inexpensive plastic monsters of many sizes are also available in local stores. (page B61)

FIGURES: If miniature figures are used to represent the characters, the players should choose figures which look like their characters, and should make sure that the DM knows which miniatures represent which characters. The miniature figures should be lined up in the same order as the marching order. When special situations occur, the players should change the position of their figures as they desire. File cards with names on them, pawns, and other markers may be used instead of miniatures, or the marching order may simply be written on a piece of paper. (page B19)

USING FIGURES: Miniature figures are useful during combat for both the DM and the players, so that they may "see" what is happening. If miniatures are not being used, the DM should draw on a piece of paper, or use something (dice work nicely) to represent the characters in place of miniature figures. (page B26)

SCALE MOVEMENT: If miniature figures are used, the actual movement of the characters can be represented at the scale of one inch equals ten feet. A movement rate of 60' per turn would mean that a miniature figure would move 6 inches in that turn. Scale movement is useful for moving the figures on a playing surface (such as a table). (page B19)

PLAYING SURFACE: Combats are easy to keep track of when large sheets of graph paper, covered with plexiglass or transparent adhesive plastic (contact paper) are used to put the figures on. The best sheets for this use have 1" squares, and the scale of 1" = 5' should be used when moving the figures. With water-based markers or grease pencils, an entire room or battle can be drawn in just a few seconds. When the battle is over, the board may be wiped off, leaving it ready for the next combat. Dominoes or plastic building blocks can also be used to outline walls and corridors. When using figures, the DM should make sure that a solid table top is used, so the figures won't fall over when the table is bumped. (page B61)

You do know that "Miniatures rules" are not miniatures right?

Like... you're aware of that yes?

Especially since the preceding paragraph says you don't need them right?

Quote from: Mistwell;629661You know, or you could read the quote I posted, and see it's on many pages.  Like 19 (not in the back) and 26 (not in the back).

Here, I will re-post it, since folks seem to have trouble seeing it:

Here, I'll highlight the appropriate words for you since you seen to be having trouble:

QuoteMINIATURE FIGURES: D&D adventures are more interesting to play when figures are used. Metal miniatures (about 15 to 25 millimeters high) are often used, for they can be easily painted to look like real dungeon adventurers. Many excellent figures are designed specially for fantasy role playing games. These are available from TSR or from local hobby stores. If metal miniatures cost more than the players want to spend, many companies make inexpensive packs of plastic figures. These are not specifically made for fantasy role playing, but can easily be adapted for it. Inexpensive plastic monsters of many sizes are also available in local stores. (page B61)

FIGURES: If miniature figures are used to represent the characters, the players should choose figures which look like their characters, and should make sure that the DM knows which miniatures represent which characters. The miniature figures should be lined up in the same order as the marching order. When special situations occur, the players should change the position of their figures as they desire. File cards with names on them, pawns, and other markers may be used instead of miniatures, or the marching order may simply be written on a piece of paper. (page B19)

USING FIGURES: Miniature figures are useful during combat for both the DM and the players, so that they may "see" what is happening. If miniatures are not being used, the DM should draw on a piece of paper, or use something (dice work nicely) to represent the characters in place of miniature figures. (page B26)

SCALE MOVEMENT: If miniature figures are used, the actual movement of the characters can be represented at the scale of one inch equals ten feet. A movement rate of 60' per turn would mean that a miniature figure would move 6 inches in that turn. Scale movement is useful for moving the figures on a playing surface (such as a table). (page B19)

PLAYING SURFACE: Combats are easy to keep track of when large sheets of graph paper, covered with plexiglass or transparent adhesive plastic (contact paper) are used to put the figures on. The best sheets for this use have 1" squares, and the scale of 1" = 5' should be used when moving the figures. With water-based markers or grease pencils, an entire room or battle can be drawn in just a few seconds. When the battle is over, the board may be wiped off, leaving it ready for the next combat. Dominoes or plastic building blocks can also be used to outline walls and corridors. When using figures, the DM should make sure that a solid table top is used, so the figures won't fall over when the table is bumped. (page B61)

If... when... may

These are not difficult words.

Quote from: Dimitrios;629447The cleric was always sort of an odd man out because it's an archetype that doesn't really exist anywhere outside of D&D. ... The original cleric archetype is basically pure Gygax.

That's historically wrong.

The original cleric archetype is basically pure Hammer Film Productions. See for instance The Devil Rides Out (based on a 1934 novel by Dennis Wheatley). "Turning undead" is a staple of the Hammer Dracula pictures.

It was a vampire character in the seminal Blackmoor campaign -- not in Gygax's later Greyhawk campaign -- that gave rise to the cleric type as a counter-balance.

EDIT: The powers of clerics are mostly based on Biblical models, too.

Quote from: Piestrio;629663You do know that "Miniatures rules" are not miniatures right?

You do know we're not talking about miniatures themselves, but visual representations of things like position, movement, and range, using a grid or something similar, right?  Or did you lose track of what we were discussing and get caught up on the little lead symbol?  I'll repeat the page 26 quote from Basic: "If miniatures are not being used, the DM should draw on a piece of paper, or use something (dice work nicely) to represent the characters in place of miniature figures."

QuoteLike... you're aware of that yes?

Much more aware of it than you were of the multiple entries in Basic edition which you erroneously described as just being at the back of the book despite having the page numbers right in front of your face.  See how that works, smart ass?

QuoteEspecially since the preceding paragraph says you don't need them right?

Right, because you think we're talking about just using lead figures, and not the thing we're actually discussing.

QuoteHere, I'll highlight the appropriate words for you since you seen to be having trouble:



If... when... may

These are not difficult words.

First, I like how you completely ignore having been proven absolutely wrong on Basic edition.  You made a clearly erroneous statement of fact about it being just in the back of the book, and when proven wrong multiple times you just pretended none of that happened.  Nice, intellectually honest argumentation mang!

Second, "I never said they are required" are also not difficult words, but you seem to be having trouble with the concept.  

You really seem to have lost the thread a while back.  You seem to be suffering from two misapprehensions: 1) that I claim miniatures were required to play (that's not the argument), 2) that I claimed that it's actual miniatures (that's not the argument), as opposed to either miniatures or a substitute like a die, a poker chip, or whatever physical tangible symbol is used on a grid or other surface to show position, range, and movement.

In OD&D, and Basic, and Advanced, they all recommend miniatures OR SOME PHYSICAL REPLACEMENT FOR MINIATURES.  And that's how the majority of people played those games, using SOMETHING physical, often on a grid or hex map (like the one explained with instructions in Basic edition), to represent position, range, and movement.  You could obviously play without any of that other than your words, but I think a majority of people used something physical (often miniatures if they had them).

In all my years playing D&D, I've never once played in a group where anyone wanted to be a Cleric. They were just the dudes in temples that you dragged your wounded to after an adventure and paid coin (or agreed to undertake another adventure for the clerics) to get healed.

Ok, this is my stance on the matter:

- Clerics are the most D&Dish thing in D&D
- I don't like them much, personally
- the general way TSR D&D handles healing, in that adventures consist of attrition of hit points & healing spells over a series of encounters instead of everybody counting on starting everything with a full tank, is one of the greatest advantages of those versions of the game vs. 3e & later
- while I don't like clerics much and would prefer that there are other, non-divine classes that can handle healing, it's fine if those classes show up later at some point – I don't care if it's "core" or give a shit about the "core" concept even

So if I catch up witht eh overnight posts ...

Piestrio has gone from "if you play D&D you should play D&D notsome other game with its core values like Clerical healing removed" to .... "I hardly ever played by the RAW and used all these sorts of variations". - Dude I merely suggested that they put in an optional healing HP model that would let people play S&S and swashbukler type games without the cleric as a core class. You then told me to go and play GURPs ... wtf

I never said the cleric wasn't a popular class I said the Cleric was a class that only appears in D&D and therefore for my games where I am interested in more genre emulation of fantasy fiction and less about genre emulation of D&D it's a poor fit. There will always be people that want to play the cleric its arguably the most powerful basic class from levels 1 - 10 or so. My problem is merely how in integrates and that can be traced to its origins which are far more fuzzy than the other 3 core classes and the HP/heal model which in D&D relies on magical healing of some sort especially in 1e & 2e.

What's all this crap about miniatures? Who gives a crap and why is it in a thread about healing in D&D next?

My position would be :
Most reasonable people would be very comfortable with a core basic rule book where you recover level HP per day. Most of those same people would be pretty happy if there was an optional basic rule that allowed you to recover an optional HD of HP if you totally rested. This introduces the HD idea into the basic game but doesn't impinge on anyone's FUN. Most people would be reasonably happy if there was another optional rule in the basic book that allowed recovery of a HD of wounds after some elapsed time an hour, 3 turns , or whatever or after a meal ..etc
This becomes a simple half page option box that presents 2 slight variations on the basic healing paradigm and in so doing reaches out to a wider number of players. Not rocket science and hardly controversial

Oh and by the way cleric healing should restore HD rather than 1d8,2d8 etc. So Cure Light wounds restores 1HD. This makes sense from a design perspective as it incorporates the HD concept and it works from a 'logic' perspective as wounds and damage need to be though of as % of total HP for them to make anything like sense and total HP are linked to the size of your HD so a warrior regains d10 a Wizard d4 (well I would actually remove d4s as I hate them and their feet harming pointyness).

Fighters d10 - a few might have d12
Rogues/Clerics - d8
Wizards - d6

Death to the D4!!!!!

Quote from: Piestrio;629536I can honestly say the "Nobody wants to play the cleric" meme is one I've only ever encountered online and in jokes.

That's gaming in various cities across three continents.

Not claiming to be an expert but I suspect the magnitude of this "problem" is greatly magnified by the internet.

Back in the 90s, my group would never play a cleric. I guess they didn't see the idea of healing as manly.

Quote from: estar;629469What I am not seeing is how they are going to reconcile D&D Next with 4e AND with the older editions. 4e is just too different to make a core game that also works for older D&D.

I think it would take a whole supplement to do 4E justice. Unlike earlier editions, it's not just a cobbling together of 'patches'; it's a pretty comprehensive and carefully integrated re-design.

Even the necessities for keeping it reasonably compatible with material for more mainstream versions of D&D might be too much for some 4E enthusiasts. Look for instance at the use of "levels" and how often the 4E Monster Manual seems odd in that regard.

Jargon that seems peculiar to 4E often points to design features that are likewise peculiar enough to make translation difficult.

That said, a partial implementation that does not satisfy some confirmed 4E fans might nonetheless offer options pleasing to many players.

Quote from: Phillip;629666That's historically wrong.

The original cleric archetype is basically pure Hammer Film Productions. See for instance The Devil Rides Out (based on a 1934 novel by Dennis Wheatley). "Turning undead" is a staple of the Hammer Dracula pictures.

It was a vampire character in the seminal Blackmoor campaign -- not in Gygax's later Greyhawk campaign -- that gave rise to the cleric type as a counter-balance.

EDIT: The powers of clerics are mostly based on Biblical models, too.

Certainly the various aspects of the cleric have sources. I've just never seen that particular oddball hybrid of Friar tuck and Knight Hospitaller anywhere outside of early D&D.

Although if there's an example of one in a Hammer picture, I definitely need to netflix that sucker.

Quote from: jibbajibba;629675Oh and by the way cleric healing should restore HD rather than 1d8,2d8 etc. So Cure Light wounds restores 1HD. This makes sense from a design perspective as it incorporates the HD concept and it works from a 'logic' perspective as wounds and damage need to be though of as % of total HP for them to make anything like sense and total HP are linked to the size of your HD so a warrior regains d10 a Wizard d4 (well I would actually remove d4s as I hate them and their feet harming pointyness).

Fighters d10 - a few might have d12
Rogues/Clerics - d8
Wizards - d6

Death to the D4!!!!!

That's how I do it with the Drag%n system I'm working on presently.  Healing spells, natural healing, as well as a few other things are all tied into a "core die" type.  If your character has a d10 for a CD, then when he gets healed, it's the d10 you're rolling, regardless of what the CD is for the person actually healing you.

Just how hard is it to use "campaign" traits like Fantasy Craft? It isn't damn it! Mearls acts the obvious is esoteric string theory when it's basic addition and subtraction.