Sorry, but quoting a passage out of the AD&D hardly means that's how most people played it.  Especially around minis and movement rules.  You are aware that most players didn't play with half the rules out of AD&D, right?  And especially not with the emphasis that 3e and 4e had upon them.

Quote from: Mistwell;629566OD&D of course was a miniatures game, using Chainmail miniatures rules for combat.

Then from Basic edition:



And from the AD&D DMG:



I would actually say that the emphasis on the use of miniatures decreased with 2e.  And then of course it was quite increased with 3e.

We could all cherry pick passages all day long and it wouldn't tell us much.

More valuable is actually looking in the rules.

Do they reference minis?

Are there diagrams with grids?

Are the examples presented in a way that uses minis? ("John moves his figure 5 inches")

The answer is no. The rules don't presume minis in any version of the game.

Support them? To various degrees yes. Encourage them? Sometimes.

But until 3e we never saw a little grid in a core D&D book to explain movement.

Mistwelling, a verb from the Circvus Maximvs Wiki.

Quote from: Mistwelling on the Circvus Maximvs WikiFrom The Library of Alexandria
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Mistwelling a thread is a form of thread derailment not unlike Spoonying a thread or Torming a thread. Where the preferred mechanism of those two was to make a thread all about themselves by in Spoony's case talking about himself and in Torm's case drawing attacks upon himself, Mistwell's chosen approach involves staking out ludicrous White Knight defences of people or positions rightly taking a beating. By presenting a living breathing local target, he provides a distraction of sorts for the subject who has no clue they're being ripped on some silly messageboard somewhere. What he feels he accomplishes by this is unclear, though he does clearly take enjoyment from the conflicts he stirs up.

The more contrarian, wrong-headed or stupid the defence, the more Mistwell likes it, and the more it's guaranteed to atom-bomb a thread. He's become a master at white knighting anything at any time, unfortunately for him he's become so predictable in the role that you see him coming a mile away, and some people have even taken to predicting how and when he's going to charge in on his trusty steed.

Mistwell was first tagged with this post: [1]

"Hey look, Mistwell Mistwells another thread.

That's right, you're now a verb because you've supplanted Spoony and Torm as our resident thread-destroying black-hole of inevitability."

It's everyone's responsibility to help threads avoid Mistwell's event horizon of stupidity. Don't bite on his hasty defences - or if you do, keep it to a simple "you're an idiot" and move on.

Mistwell will white knight almost anything: the Jester seems immune to his, er, proclivities.

Mistwell Flow Chart [2]

Retrieved from "http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/wiki/index.php/Mistwelling"

Quote from: Sacrosanct;629558I'd say 95% of everyone I gamed with since 1981 to today (still playing AD&D) never used minis any more than rough representations of marching order and to keep track of where and how many monsters there were.

That's definitely how we used them back in the day.

As for clerics, I kind of warmed up to them in 2e because the specialty priest format made it easier to make characters that resembled someone from a Robert E. Howard short story.

Quote from: One Horse Town;629534For whatever reason, there's a sub-set of players who seem to ignore the fact that the Cleric is a passable combatant, has turning, not to mention other utility spells. No, he's a heal-bot and that's interfering with my snowflake-ism.

I can definitely see it - when a Cleric is needed to do his iconic thing (Healing), it's making up for someone else's mistake, and the turn is spent not actively doing something fun for yourself.

It's not a mindset I share, though. My favourite MUD character had, as her main ability, making magic healing tea. This is not a terribly exciting ability, but it's useful because otherwise your friends will be dead. And then you don't get any more fun at all.

There are always posters on forums with contrarian tendancies. I would rather judge mistwell based on his posts here than what some guys at circus maximus think of him (i am generally pretty wary of new verbs and fallacies people create on gaming message boards).

That said, my experience of D&D was a big shift toward miniatures with 3E, which greatly intensified with 3.5 and 4E. It certainly did grow out of a miniature game, but from the 70s on it felt like an evolution away from its tactical roots. Wen I started in the 80s we would use miniatures for things like marching order or to help us count who was still up on the battlefield (without worrying about actual positions). In 2E I pretty much never used them, then in 3E we started using them a lot. I do think though there were always groups who used miniatures and grids. And in any game where you had an epic battle the grid and the miniatures were usually brought out.

Quote from: Piestrio;629364Then play something else?

All I meant was I don't think dropping non-magical healing is such a hot idea. I never said anything was fucking broken. Holy shit.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;629539I can't remember who said it earlier, but it's a point worth repeating.  If your healing options are limited, that's only an issue if you spend all your time fighting everything you come across.

I think that illustrates a big difference between 4e and previous editions.  It seems that 4e players spend the vast majority of gameplay combat.  A tactical boardgame if you will.  Of course having multiple healing options are going to be important there.

But they need to realize that D&D, heck RPGs general, are a lot more than moving game pieces in combat.  Just look at the difference:

AD&D
DM: You peer around the corner and see a half dozen bugbears at a table, enjoying a feast of some sort of meat and engaging in crude banter.  There is an exit at the far end of the room where you need to go.
Thief: Ok.  Ragnar and Illustran, you go around the corner down the passage to the east.  I'll lure them out and go to the west, and hide and let them pass.  We'll then go into the room while they're gone.
--scenario is quickly played out, hopefully with a successful HiS check

4e:
DM: You peer around the corner, and this is what you see. (spends 3 minutes placing tiles of a battlemap and then placing the bugbear minis.  How are you guys situated?
Players: spends 2 minutes placing their minis on the battlemap
Thief: Ok.  Ragnar and Illustran, you go around the corner down the passage to the east.  I'll lure them out and go to the west, and hide and let them pass.  We'll then go into the room while they're gone.
Round 1: everyone takes a minute and moves their movement rate
Round 2: everyone takes a minute and moves their movement rate
Round 3: everyone takes a minute and moves their movement rate, thief is now around the corner and says he will try to hide in shadows
Round 4: everyone takes a minute and moves their movement rate.  DM rolls check to see of bugbears see thief.  They do not
Round 5-10: everyone takes a minute and moves their movement rate. repeat
---a brief moment of silence---
Player B: Well, that was sort of boring and time consuming.  Next time we fight!
DM:  Yeah, I had all the proper minis and everything.

That isn't how it would work in 4e. You wouldn't switch to square-counting mode unless/until initiative is rolled.

Quote from: Raven;629584All I meant was I don't think dropping non-magical healing is such a hot idea. I never said anything was fucking broken. Holy shit.

I don't see any compelling reason why it and other 11th hour additions to the game should be kept around.

"But I like it!" Doesn't cut it no more than the fact that I like skill based magic means next should have a skill based magic system.

We have a template for successful D&D and it sure as shit doesn't involve warlords and healing bards.

Quote from: jeff37923;629535It is the same sub-set that proclaims that the Bard is useless.

It's the same sub-set that wants thieves to be COMBAT GHODZ because otherwise waaah.

Quote from: Mistwell;629566I would actually say that the emphasis on the use of miniatures decreased with 2e.  And then of course it was quite increased with 3e.

...which is funny because as 2e started to hit its stride, TSR opened their own miniatures foundry.

Quote from: Piestrio;629614We have a template for successful D&D and it sure as shit doesn't involve warlords and healing bards.

I'm aware. I own several slightly different versions already. Doesn't mean I want to continue rebuying them.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;629570Sorry, but quoting a passage out of the AD&D hardly means that's how most people played it.  Especially around minis and movement rules.  You are aware that most players didn't play with half the rules out of AD&D, right?  And especially not with the emphasis that 3e and 4e had upon them.

It's a fuck of a lot more persuasive than your personal experiences being claimed as representative of anything other than your personal experiences.

Quote from: Piestrio;629571We could all cherry pick passages all day long and it wouldn't tell us much.

More valuable is actually looking in the rules.

Passages are rules.

QuoteDo they reference minis?

Yes, repeatedly, in detail.  I just quoted some.  Did you even read it?

QuoteAre there diagrams with grids?

Grids are mentioned, with instructions on how to build multiple use grids for use.  Explained in what I quoted.  Which you apparently did not read.

QuoteAre the examples presented in a way that uses minis? ("John moves his figure 5 inches")

Yes.  In the rules I quoted, with a quote almost exactly like your fictional one (but without the name of the character).  Again, which apparently you did not read.

QuoteThe answer is no.

Maybe in an alternative universe where kangaroos have no tales and fall over from lack of support.  Kind of like your answer right there.  

Seriously, why the fuck didn't you read what was posted before responding to it?

QuoteBut until 3e we never saw a little grid in a core D&D book to explain movement.

Wait, so SEEING the grid as opposed to describing exactly how to make the grid and use it is the critical issue for you?

Quote from: jeff37923;629573Mistwelling, a verb from the Circvus Maximvs Wiki.

And Jeff, I know you have memory problems, so I will just remind you again that *I* wrote that entry, about myself, as an inside joke at CM, one which you do not comprehend because you're not a regular poster there. And, you have a dead link there by the way. In fact, shit, is my entry gone?